FBI prevenst car bomb at Pioneer Courthouse Square

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And the likely body count you can attribute to our military is on the order of 10,000 - all in the first few weeks. From the time the occupation started, versus killing Saddam's army, it was muslims killing muslims in Iraq.

Well, this is great news. The media, Bush, and Obama are lying. American troops have not killed anyone since the first weeks. There have been no battles, no house-to-house American death squads, and no torture asylums where they take their victims. A hundred thousand American troops have been sitting on their thumbs over there for almost 8 years. I'm sure you'll agree that we're wasting our money, and should end this war immediately.
 
Well, this is great news. The media, Bush, and Obama are lying. American troops have not killed anyone since the first weeks. There have been no battles, no house-to-house American death squads, and no torture asylums where they take their victims. A hundred thousand American troops have been sitting on their thumbs over there for almost 8 years. I'm sure you'll agree that we're wasting our money, and should end this war immediately.

Or the left wing media lied to us when they said there was a civil war going on there. Much more likely, no? Can't have your cake and eat it, too.

No, it's not good that muslims were killing other muslims, and it certainly was our obligation to make the place safe for them (see Geneva Conventions).

But realize for every abu grahib, there were countless mosque bombings, drive by shootings of iraqis standing in line to register to vote or to join the police or military, explosions in markets, warlords and their gangs, sectarian militias, and other scoundrel types supported by Iran.
 
No one says it's a myth that the Muslim world is up in arms against us for killing a million civilian Iraqis, and a half-million of their children before that from a decade of medical sanctions.

I looked up your last links to these figures. Lies. Bad lies.

Get out of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and this will end.

If ever there was a laughable statement, this is it.
 
Get out of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and this will end.

I agree. Instead, we need to begin turning our focus towards North Korea. ;)
 
But realize for every abu grahib, there were countless mosque bombings, drive by shootings of iraqis standing in line to register to vote or to join the police or military, explosions in markets, warlords and their gangs, sectarian militias, and other scoundrel types supported by Iran.

This wasn't happening before the US turned the country upside-down in a decade of massive killing. The obvious, usual strategy to beat anyone, divide and conquer, pits Muslim vs. Muslim.


If ever there was a laughable statement, this is it.

So these wars didn't cause the guy to try to bomb Portland. That means that terrorists were bombing up Oregon before these wars. Link?
 
This wasn't happening before the US turned the country upside-down in a decade of massive killing. The obvious, usual strategy to beat anyone, divide and conquer, pits Muslim vs. Muslim.

If you go by your kind of statistics, Saddam murdered 3M of his own civilians, so yeah, the killing was going on all along.

I don't see your strategy in action. We've never fought people because they are muslim, though we have saved a lot of people through military intervention because they are muslim. Kosovo ring a bell? Gulf War I?
 
But realize for every abu grahib, there were countless mosque bombings, drive by shootings of iraqis standing in line to register to vote or to join the police or military, explosions in markets, warlords and their gangs, sectarian militias, and other scoundrel types supported by Iran.

It's a sad realization indeed, that we're exactly like them. Evil incarnate.
 
If you go by your kind of statistics, Saddam murdered 3M of his own civilians, so yeah, the killing was going on all along.

I don't see your strategy in action. We've never fought people because they are muslim, though we have saved a lot of people through military intervention because they are muslim. Kosovo ring a bell? Gulf War I?

Like current wars, fought solely for financial gain. They could be muslims, eskimos or ocelots in danger. It doesn't matter either way. The tycoons that run the US and it's armed forces only wage war for financial gain.

It's an indisputable historical fact.
 
If you go by your kind of statistics, Saddam murdered 3M of his own civilians, so yeah, the killing was going on all along.

"your kind"--You refer to a nonexistent critique of the statistical estimates by the leading medical journal in the world, Lancet, which has made many such estimates in world conflicts. Easy to mention a phantom critique you wrote up and forget you didn't write anything.

"3M"--Do you have a link to the 3M? I just checked and the Iran-Iraq War killed or wounded 250-500K Iraqis (which means 100-200K dead). The UN says half a million died from the sanctions imposed by the US. You're going to have to go deeply into propaganda to get to 3M. I expect to see a right-wing blog.
 
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"your kind"--You refer to a nonexistent critique of the statistical estimates by the leading medical journal in the world, Lancet, which has made many such estimates in world conflicts. Easy to mention a phantom critique you wrote up and forget you didn't write anything.

"3M"--Do you have a link to the 3M? I just checked and the Iran-Iraq War killed or wounded 250-500K Iraqis (which means 100-200K dead). The UN says half a miion died from the sanctions imposed by the US. You're going to have to go deeply into propaganda to get to 3M. I expect to see a right-wing blog.

NYTimes a right wing blog?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/m...5a77e9ff&ex=1349409600&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

2. By the time the American invasion began in the spring of 2003, the toppling of Saddam Hussein appeared to be one of those rare historic moments when the men of force and the men of hope could stand together. For here, in Hussein, was one of the world’s indisputably evil men: he murdered as many as a million of his people, many with poison gas. He tortured, maimed and imprisoned countless more. His unprovoked invasion of Iran is estimated to have left another million people dead. His seizure of Kuwait threw the Middle East into crisis. More insidious, arguably, was the psychological damage he inflicted on his own land. Hussein created a nation of informants — friends on friends, circles within circles — making an entire population complicit in his rule.
 
he murdered as many as a million of his people, many with poison gas. He tortured, maimed and imprisoned countless more. His unprovoked invasion of Iran is estimated to have left another million people dead.

You've used this 3M number before, and I've wondered about the source.

1) 1M + 1M = 2 million, not 3 million.

2) A million Iranians + Iraqis died in the Iraq-Iran war, not a million Iraqis. As I said above, I looked it up (in Wikipedia). it's 100-200K Iraqis.

3) Saddam killed almost a million of his own people? There is no backup. Can you provide a link to that number. Or a link for any number--can you find a statistical estimate (like I provided, and you found faulty for reasons you couldn't articulate), instead of propaganda invented just before the war?
--------------
As for poisoning his own people, the Toronto Star summarizes a NY Times article written by a CIA author, just before the US started the war:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1779.htm

The New York Times published an opinion piece by Stephen C. Pelletiere, the CIA's senior political analyst on Iraq during the 1980s. In the article, Pelletiere said the only thing known for certain was that "Kurds were bombarded with poison gas that day at Halabja. We cannot say with any certainty that Iraqi chemical weapons killed the Kurds."

Pelletiere said the gassing occurred during a battle between Iraqis and Iranians. "Iraq used chemical weapons to try to kill Iranians who had seized the town ... The Kurdish civilians who died had the misfortune to be caught up in that exchange. But they were not Iraq's main target," he wrote.

The former CIA official revealed that immediately after the battle the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency investigated and produced a classified report that said it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds. Both sides used gas at Halabja, Pelletiere suggested.

"The condition of the dead Kurds' bodies however, indicated they had been killed with a blood agent — that is, a cyanide-based gas — which Iran was known to use. The Iraqis, who are thought to have used mustard gas in the battle, are not known to have possessed blood agents at the time."
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That was a summary. Here is the actual NY Times article by the CIA's Pelletriere.

http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/siteinfo/newsround/iraq2.html
 
A similar survey to the Lancet was done just after the invasion and Saddam went into hiding. The people told the pollsters that 3M+ were killed by Saddam, not having anything to do with the Iran-Iraq war.

Nonetheless:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13164-new-study-says-iraqi-death-toll-significantly-lower.html

The death toll in Iraq may be far lower than previously claimed, according to a team working for the Iraqi Ministry of Health.

The researchers estimate that the number of violent deaths in Iraq between the US-led invasion of March 2003 and the end of June 2006 to be between 104,000 and 223,000.

This loss of life is described as "massive", but is well below the figure of 600,000 violent deaths claimed by a team of Iraqi and US scientists in autumn 2006 (The Lancet, vol 368, p 1421).

The Lancet research, led by public health experts from Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland, US, was hailed by opponents of the war as evidence of the huge human cost of the conflict, but attacked with equal force by supporters of the invasion. President George W Bush publicly dismissed the study on the day it was released.

Larger study

The methods used to produce the estimate have since come under intense scrutiny although many experts believe the research was as good as it could have been given the dangerous and unstable conditions within Iraq.

The latest study is, however, likely to increase doubts about the 600,000 figure, not least because the new survey is far larger.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa0707782

BACKGROUND

Estimates of the death toll in Iraq from the time of the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003 until June 2006 have ranged from 47,668 (from the Iraq Body Count) to 601,027 (from a national survey). Results from the Iraq Family Health Survey (IFHS), which was conducted in 2006 and 2007, provide new evidence on mortality in Iraq.

Full Text of Background...

METHODS

The IFHS is a nationally representative survey of 9345 households that collected information on deaths in the household since June 2001. We used multiple methods for estimating the level of underreporting and compared reported rates of death with those from other sources.
Full Text of Methods...

RESULTS

Interviewers visited 89.4% of 1086 household clusters during the study period; the household response rate was 96.2%. From January 2002 through June 2006, there were 1325 reported deaths. After adjustment for missing clusters, the overall rate of death per 1000 person-years was 5.31 (95% confidence interval [CI], 4.89 to 5.77); the estimated rate of violence-related death was 1.09 (95% CI, 0.81 to 1.50). When underreporting was taken into account, the rate of violence-related death was estimated to be 1.67 (95% uncertainty range, 1.24 to 2.30). This rate translates into an estimated number of violent deaths of 151,000 (95% uncertainty range, 104,000 to 223,000) from March 2003 through June 2006.

http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/news/world/iraq/memorial/20031210-1116-iraq-executions.html

The bloodiest massacres of Saddam's 23-year presidency occurred in Iraq's Kurdish north and Shiite Muslim south, but the Gallup Baghdad Survey data indicates the brutality extended strongly into the capital as well.

The survey obtained Monday, which the polling firm planned to release on Tuesday, asked 1,178 Baghdad residents in August and September whether a member of their household had been executed by Saddam's regime. According to Gallup, 6.6 percent said yes.

The polling firm took metropolitan Baghdad's population – 6.39 million – and average household size – 6.9 people – to calculate that 61,000 people were executed during Saddam's rule. Past estimates were in the low tens of thousands. Most are believed to have been buried in mass graves.

The U.S.-led occupation authority in Iraq has said that at least 300,000 people are buried in mass graves in Iraq. Human rights officials put the number closer to 500,000, and some Iraqi political parties estimate more than 1 million were executed.
 
We invaded Iraq in March 2003. Let's call it 8 years. You claim 1M killed by the USA (laughable, but anyhow...)

1M / (8 * 365) = 342 civilians killed every day for the past 8 years. That'd be 250,000 on Obama's watch alone. I think there'd be a lot more publicity about that kind of dying going on. Use a little common sense.
 
. Before the US started provoking Muslims by killing and torturing them en masse, there was one similar event in this country, ever--it was against one of NYC's Twin Towers.

So the 1993 WTC bombing that killed 6 people and injured hundreds of others doesn't count? Not to mention the many overseas bombings from roughly 1983 onward?

What an idiotic post. I can't take you seriously.
 
Cars crush and slash 42,000 Americans year in, year out.

20,000 die from the flu.

6,500 Americans drown each year.

Kitchen appliances electrocute about 200.

103 crash in commercial airplanes.

God slays another 60 per year with lightning bolts.

53 are murdered by bees each year.

Pet dogs account for 31 deaths per year in the U.S. The Pit bull variety is by far the largest killer of humans, followed by Rottweilers and Huskies. Basset Hounds, Beagles, Dauschunds, Labradors, and even Golden retrievers have all killed humans.

Horses stomp to death 20 a year.

Spiders kill 6.5.

4.5 die on amusement park rides.

Cougar, Alligators and Sharks (the only US predators that hunt humans in the wild) kill less than 1 each per year.

Here is a record of every terrorism incident in the US since 1970. click on the red number at the left of each incident for details, fatalities, perpetrator...

Not what most people think:

http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/search...s_type=&casualties_max=&country=217&count=100
 
Cars crush and slash 42,000 Americans year in, year out.

20,000 die from the flu.

6,500 Americans drown each year.

Kitchen appliances electrocute about 200.

103 crash in commercial airplanes.

God slays another 60 per year with lightning bolts.

53 are murdered by bees each year.

Pet dogs account for 31 deaths per year in the U.S. The Pit bull variety is by far the largest killer of humans, followed by Rottweilers and Huskies. Basset Hounds, Beagles, Dauschunds, Labradors, and even Golden retrievers have all killed humans.

Horses stomp to death 20 a year.

Spiders kill 6.5.

4.5 die on amusement park rides.

Cougar, Alligators and Sharks (the only US predators that hunt humans in the wild) kill less than 1 each per year.

Here is a record of every terrorism incident in the US since 1970. click on the red number at the left of each incident for details, fatalities, perpetrator...

Not what most people think:

http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/search...s_type=&casualties_max=&country=217&count=100

...yet, the the American masses are scared shit-less of this so-called "terrorist threat". Keep drinking the kool-aid America and keep sacrificing your liberties for a false sense of security, especially if your want the republic to fall!
 
good to know the Portland Police and mayor had no idea about this shit because they opted out of the Joint Terrorism task force 5 years ago.

keep portland weird, and uninformed....
 
I guess they tried to burn down this guy's mosque.
 
Before the US started provoking Muslims by killing and torturing them en masse, there was one similar event in this country, ever--it was against one of NYC's Twin Towers.

So the 1993 WTC bombing that killed 6 people and injured hundreds of others doesn't count? Not to mention the many overseas bombings from roughly 1983 onward?

What an idiotic post. I can't take you seriously.

We were talking about the current wars causing this terrorism in Oregon, not in Europe.

Are you aware that "NYC's Twin Towers" = WTC? You're talking about the same incident as I was.

Speaking of idiotic posts.
 
We were talking about the current wars causing this terrorism in Oregon, not in Europe.

Are you aware that "NYC's Twin Towers" = WTC? You're talking about the same incident as I was.

Speaking of idiotic posts.

Keep on your blinders. Perhaps you forgot about the Y2K plot.
 
...yet, the the American masses are scared shit-less of this so-called "terrorist threat". Keep drinking the kool-aid America and keep sacrificing your liberties for a false sense of security, especially if your want the republic to fall!

I personally like how it says bees murder people. Die from bees, sure. But 53 people murdered by them?
 
Yes, "they" did. A computer and a chair are destroyed by the "arsonist".

Color me skeptical.

What are you skeptical about?

Keep on your blinders. Perhaps you forgot about the Y2K plot.

...seems like you are the one wearing blinders to me. What Y2K plot are you referring to? Are you saying that the mass hysteria of the potential Y2K computer problem was actually a "terrorist" plot?
 
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I personally like how it says bees murder people. Die from bees, sure. But 53 people murdered by them?

...would it be involuntary manslaughter then? Or perhaps just an accident?
 
What are you skeptical about?

I am skeptical that an "arsonist" would go into an office at the mosque and burn a computer. I won't rule out that it is an inside job.



...seems like you are the one wearing blinders to me. What Y2K plot are you referring to? Are you saying that the mass hysteria of the potential Y2K computer problem was actually a "terrorist" plot?

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/LAW/01/16/millennium.plot.sentence/index.html

How quickly we American Idiots forget these things.
 
Why don't you change your name back to PapaG. I thought you wanted to be banned to stay away from the board.
 
...yet, the the American masses are scared shit-less of this so-called "terrorist threat". Keep drinking the kool-aid America and keep sacrificing your liberties for a false sense of security, especially if your want the republic to fall!

Even a duck and a beaver can agree on this.
 
Keep on your blinders. Perhaps you forgot about the Y2K plot.

First, you said that there have been more plots than the one I listed. You cited exactly the same incident I did, because you don't know that WTC means the same thing as Twin Towers. And now for your big comeback...you accuse me of seeing one more plot than you do (Y2K), after accusing me of seeing one less plot than you (WTC). Which is it, I see too few plots or too many?

Are you unable to follow the thread due to double vision, or are you just out of your level here on the OT board?
 
I am skeptical that an "arsonist" would go into an office at the mosque and burn a computer. I won't rule out that it is an inside job.

And here's another plot you imagine, while accusing me of seeing plots where there are none. (I have never thought Y2K was a plot.) Your mindless little one-liners don't work on the OT board. People don't just let them pass here.
 

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