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Tyrant of Ants said:
Yeah, not much of a free will if everything is already predetermined by the big guy upstairs, no?
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So, you're telling me you have no choices in life because everything is predetermined? Hmmmm....
 
Tyrant of Ants said:
Nah, not me. I happen to believe, mixed with a large dose of random occurrences (lucky/unlucky), people pretty much determine their own destiny. The contradiction of religious people claiming “it’s all a part God’s plan” when shit goes down and then also saying “we have free will” is what irks the hell out of me.
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My response would be that it never precludes me from praying and having hope that God might answer my prayers in the way that "I" want Him to. God may, or may not, do that. God is God, and I'm not. Kind of like when King David fasted and prayed for over a week that his son would be healed. All of David's friends, family, and associates stood by and watched while he was going though all of this. Then, one morning David woke up and was told that his son had died. He shaved, had breakfast, then moved on with his day. Those around him were in dismay that he responded in such a manner. Essentially, David told them that God had answered in the way that He answered, and that was it. He wasn't going to question God's sovereignty in the matter. That's the dilemma many people have - Christians, and non Christians, alike: Why does God sometimes answer prayers to our benefit, and sometimes not? We'll never know this side of heaven. Faith can be a difficult thing sometimes. The bottom line is, either I believe in God, and His sovereignty/omniscience, or I don't. I choose to believe in Him, even when I don't understand why. Again, God is God, and I'm not. Simple as that.
 
ABM said:
My response would be that it never precludes me from praying and having hope that God might answer my prayers in the way that "I" want Him to. God may, or may not, do that. God is God, and I'm not. Kind of like when King David fasted and prayed for over a week that his son would be healed. All of David's friends, family, and associates stood by and watched while he was going though all of this. Then, one morning David woke up and was told that his son had died. He shaved, had breakfast, then moved on with his day. Those around him were in dismay that he responded in such a manner. Essentially, David told them that God had answered in the way that He answered, and that was it. He wasn't going to question God's sovereignty in the matter. That's the dilemma many people have - Christians, and non Christians, alike: Why does God sometimes answer prayers to our benefit, and sometimes not? We'll never know this side of heaven. Faith can be a difficult thing sometimes. The bottom line is, either I believe in God, and His sovereignty/omniscience, or I don't. I choose to believe in Him, even when I don't understand why. Again, God is God, and I'm not. Simple as that.
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Nice job (seriously). While I don’t agree 100% with your take, it was a well reasoned response, with examples to back it up. No snark, and no back pedaling. And because no one knows (until our personal lights go out) we ALL have to take it on faith whether God and heaven exist or not. Even saying “no” is an act of faith. I wish you could take this reasoned approach with non secular discussions………
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
And because no one knows (until our personal lights go out) we ALL have to take it on faith whether God and heaven exist or not.
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Disagree. We don't have to take a faith-based position on anything.

barfo
 
ABM said:
My response would be that it never precludes me from praying and having hope that God might answer my prayers in the way that "I" want Him to. God may, or may not, do that. God is God, and I'm not. Kind of like when King David fasted and prayed for over a week that his son would be healed. All of David's friends, family, and associates stood by and watched while he was going though all of this. Then, one morning David woke up and was told that his son had died. He shaved, had breakfast, then moved on with his day. Those around him were in dismay that he responded in such a manner. Essentially, David told them that God had answered in the way that He answered, and that was it. He wasn't going to question God's sovereignty in the matter. That's the dilemma many people have - Christians, and non Christians, alike: Why does God sometimes answer prayers to our benefit, and sometimes not? We'll never know this side of heaven. Faith can be a difficult thing sometimes. The bottom line is, either I believe in God, and His sovereignty/omniscience, or I don't. I choose to believe in Him, even when I don't understand why. Again, God is God, and I'm not. Simple as that.
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UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
Nice job (seriously). While I don’t agree 100% with your take, it was a well reasoned response, with examples to back it up. No snark, and no back pedaling. And because no one knows (until our personal lights go out) we ALL have to take it on faith whether God and heaven exist or not. Even saying “no” is an act of faith. I wish you could take this reasoned approach with non secular discussions………
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Thanks, I'll do my best to take this reasoned approach with all of my non sequitur discussions. ;)
 
barfo said:
I'm not following that thought.

barfo
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Philosophy 101……..with a little Jesuit twist thrown in……you have faith that I am wrong. You have faith you are correct. You have faith that you don’t have to have a faith based position. Our entire lives are based on faith, whether we like it or not. I assume you have faith you’re going to wake up tomorrow morning, faith that you’ll actually receive that paycheck, faith that your car will start when you go home tonight. Life IS a faith based proposition……..and religion has nothing to do with it……
 
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UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
Philosophy 101……..with a little Jesuit twist thrown in……you have faith that I am wrong. You have faith you are correct. You have faith that you don’t have to have a faith based position. Our entire lives are based on faith, whether we like it or not. I assume you have faith you’re going to wake up tomorrow morning, faith that you’ll actually receive that paycheck, faith that your car will start when you go home tonight. Life IS a faith based proposition……..and religion has nothing to do with it……
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No, this doesn't have anything to do with faith. This all has to do with reason.

You can take action which pays off by following trends. If there is usually food at the table at a certain time it makes sense to be there at that time if I'm hungry.

If my paycheck is normally deposited into my account on a certain day I can plan on that being the case routinely.

This isn't faith. It's logic and reason.

Faith is believing something without the need for logic or reason.

Faith:
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

I don't have complete trust in anything that hasn't been proven.
 
Phatguysrule said:
No, this doesn't have anything to do with faith. This all has to do with reason.

You can take action which pays off by following trends. If there is usually food at the table at a certain time it makes sense to be there at that time if I'm hungry.

If my paycheck is normally deposited into my account on a certain day I can plan on that being the case routinely.

This isn't faith. It's logic and reason.

Faith is believing something without the need for logic or reason.

Faith:
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
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I’ve worked in both the public and private sectors…….logically my paycheck would be there when it was supposed to be. For various reasons, that was not always the case. So…., after those experiences, it was more an act of faith that it would be there than an act of reason. Anyone’s employer can go broke overnight. Most employees have faith that that won’t happen to their employer. And for whatever it is worth, in today’s unreasonable world, I’d rather rely on my faith (in whatever) than someone else’s “reason” (which usually comes with an agenda attached). I personally rely on both my own reasoning and faith…..with faith (in general) being the leader in the clubhouse…….
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
I’ve worked in both the public and private sectors…….logically my paycheck would be there when it was supposed to be. For various reasons, that was not always the case. So…., after those experiences, it was more an act of faith that it would be there than an act of reason. Anyone’s employer can go broke overnight. Most employees have faith that that won’t happen to their employer. And for whatever it is worth, in today’s unreasonable world, I’d rather rely on my faith (in whatever) than someone else’s “reason” (which usually comes with an agenda attached). I personally rely on both my own reasoning and faith…..with faith (in general) being the leader in the clubhouse…….
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I understand you personally may live by faith. But I have no faith it will be there. The odds are that my paycheck will be there and that's why I do my job. If that were not the case I wouldn't work for that employer.

I have the means to get by in case that paycheck doesn't come, precisely because I don't have faith that it always will, without fail. Even though it always has before.
 
Tyrant of Ants said:
I'm a gambling man, it's not so much faith as it's playing the odds. You can change the odds in your favor on things that are within your control (ex., your odds of surviving Covid is much greater if you're not a stubborn ass and just get the damn shot). You can't change the odds on things that aren't in your control (ex., getting t-boned by a reckless driver), but even then you should know the odds of surviving a car accident is greater if you wear a seatbelt.

Life is a series of events/occurrences that sometimes you can, and other times, you can't have any control over. But you're better off learning and knowing your odds in situations that are applicable to you instead of sitting around mumbling to yourself so that maybe a super powerful dude that may or may not exist will guide/help you.

I don't claim that there isn't a God (by whatever the fuck definition), but I call bullshit on every God that's ever been presented.
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Faith relates to things hoped for and many times the opposite of fear.
 
Tyrant of Ants said:
If you tell me you can kick my ass in a fight, I'm not being faithless by calling your bullshit. It's just me playing the odds that your soft looking dad bod would be easy work for me. :bgrin:
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Sure, and it depends on what I bring to the fight.

 
Tyrant of Ants said:
Real men fight with what they were born with, bud. Didn't Pericles teach you that?

But I'm not opposed to other methods, either.
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K, let's cut the crap. I have faith in a God you don't believe in. Do you have a problem with that?
 
Tyrant of Ants said:
None at all. I do have a problem when you (the general you) try to represent your God and shove your beliefs down my throat, though.
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Please tell me how I'm doing that based on a post of mine in here. I'll respond to that, accordingly.
 
ABM said:
Please tell me how I'm doing that based on a post of mine in here. I'll respond to that, accordingly.
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Tyrant of Ants said:
Your stance on abortion and gay marriage is based of your religious beliefs, is it not?
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Again, how is that just because I have certain beliefs, I'm arbitrarily pushing them down some one else's throat? I know you're not meaning to be obtuse, but, c'mon.
 
ABM said:
Again, how is that just because I have certain beliefs, I'm arbitrarily pushing them down some one else's throat? I know you're not meaning to be obtuse, but, c'mon.
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If you don't believe in abortion or gay marriage, you can choose not to marry a guy, and not to get an abortion. By voting specifically for candidates who oppose those two things, you are taking your personal beliefs and hoping to have them pushed on others through legislation and legal rulings.
 
RR7 said:
If you don't believe in abortion or gay marriage, you can choose not to marry a guy, and not to get an abortion. By voting specifically for candidates who oppose those two things, you are taking your personal beliefs and hoping to have them pushed on others through legislation and legal rulings.
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I don't have a right to vote for those who may have those same views?
 
ABM said:
I don't have a right to vote for those who may have those same views?
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You have the right to, sure. But then don't act incredulous to people pointing out that that's taking your personal religious beliefs and pushing, or hoping to have them pushed, on to others. You're not accepting of abortion and same sex marriage if you're actively voting to get them overturned.
 
Tyrant of Ants said:
Your beliefs, but more importantly your propagating and supports of those that enact laws based on your beliefs, effectively accomplishes that (shoving your beliefs down people's throats).
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Bull crap. My believing one way is not the same as pushing my beliefs some down another's throat.
 
RR7 said:
You have the right to, sure. But then don't act incredulous to people pointing out that that's taking your personal religious beliefs and pushing, or hoping to have them pushed, on to others. You're not accepting of abortion and same sex marriage if you're actively voting to get them overturned.
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I never said I believed in abortion nor same sex marriage because I don't.
 
RR7 said:
When you vote to have your beliefs pushed on others, it most certainly is.
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We all vote for our own beliefs, right? You may want gun control, etc. What do the voters in general want?
 
ABM said:
We all vote for our own beliefs, right? You may want gun control, etc. What do the voters in general want?
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If I openly talk on here often of wanting to ban guns, and vote strictly for pro gun control candidates, I would also view that as me pushing my beliefs on people. I'm ok with that. I want my views on universal health care pushed on people, and will vote accordingly. I'm able to call a spade a spade.
 
Tyrant of Ants said:
What would you think of people who push to enact a law that would prevent you from marrying your current wife since you were a divorcee?
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If that were the laws of the land, I'd go with that.
 
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