Notice From My Cold Dead Hands......

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Fairly-Hard said:
I like the point made last night by the President that Gun manufacturers should also bear some of the burden on this issue. Exactly how much and when that should be imposed is certainly up for debate. Biden made the point by saying where would we be if Cigarette manufacturers were not held responsible for what their products have done?
It's another tough battle but i think it's one they could start to fight. Nobody thought the mighty RJ Reynolds could be taken down either.
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Remington just lost a lawsuit like this. And I agree with it. If gun manufacturers are pushing irresponsible marketing like shooting people etc, then they should be held accountable.

And they can be.
 
Bottom line a fuckload of armed men did shit to help anything at a school shooting while a mom ran in alone unarmed no vest and came out with her two kids. It completely blows apart the good guy with gun argument. And before I hear “right so the cops suck and now yay we are all cops” let’s be realistic. Cops aren’t going away. We would be the most lawless, violent nation since civilization began
 
calvin natt said:
Bottom line a fuckload of armed men did shit to help anything at a school shooting while a mom ran in alone unarmed no vest and came out with her two kids. It completely blows apart the good guy with gun argument. And before I hear “right so the cops suck and now yay we are all cops” let’s be realistic. Cops aren’t going away. We would be the most lawless, violent nation since civilization began
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Nobody in this thread has suggested no law enforcement. I don't think anybody has made the "good guy with a gun" argument in here...

My position has always been that we can't count on the police to help us when we need them. And they've proven that time and time again.

And that limiting access to guns in any meaningful way is not going to happen any time soon. In fact, things are trending the opposite direction.

And that the short term outrage against the other side when these tragedies happen isn't any more helpful than the "thoughts and prayers" people complain about. In fact, from my perspective that may be exactly what leadership on both sides count on to keep the distraction going.

We need to get serious about real solutions.
 
Phatguysrule said:
Nobody in this thread has suggested no law enforcement. I don't think anybody has made the "good guy with a gun" argument in here...
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Maybe not here, but it has in the past,s so I see @calvin natt s point.

Phatguysrule said:
My position has always been that we can't count on the police to help us when we need them. And they've proven that time and time again.
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George Floyd on line 1

Phatguysrule said:
And that limiting access to guns in any meaningful way is not going to happen any time soon. In fact, things are trending the opposite direction.
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I posted a link today regarding a law that was being passed today about limiting access in NY. I think that is one that will help moving forward.

Phatguysrule said:
And that the short term outrage against the other side when these tragedies happen isn't any more helpful than the "thoughts and prayers" people complain about. In fact, from my perspective that may be exactly what leadership on both sides count on to keep the distraction going.

We need to get serious about real solutions.
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Agreed.
 
Phatguysrule said:
Nobody in this thread has suggested no law enforcement. I don't think anybody has made the "good guy with a gun" argument in here...

My position has always been that we can't count on the police to help us when we need them. And they've proven that time and time again.

And that limiting access to guns in any meaningful way is not going to happen any time soon. In fact, things are trending the opposite direction.

And that the short term outrage against the other side when these tragedies happen isn't any more helpful than the "thoughts and prayers" people complain about. In fact, from my perspective that may be exactly what leadership on both sides count on to keep the distraction going.

We need to get serious about real solutions.
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When you say repeatedly that cops suck and we can’t rely on them, and I say “no law enforcement”, aren’t you splitting hairs? What’s the difference? I am failing to understand what is not the same. Everyone needs a gun because cops are useless and can’t be trusted to help you. We have a gazillion guns and aren’t safer. It’s a simple equation. If we could say “hey we have guns everywhere and we love them and want everyone to have one and look at how safe we are and how often we deter bad guys and shootings” then I’d be all for it. We can say none of that. It’s dumb.
 
calvin natt said:
When you say repeatedly that cops suck and we can’t rely on them, and I say “no law enforcement”, aren’t you splitting hairs? What’s the difference? I am failing to understand what is not the same. Everyone needs a gun because cops are useless and can’t be trusted to help you. We have a gazillion guns and aren’t safer. It’s a simple equation. If we could say “hey we have guns everywhere and we love them and want everyone to have one and look at how safe we are and how often we deter bad guys and shootings” then I’d be all for it. We can say none of that. It’s dumb.
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Good question. I should be more clear on that.

We need to reforn our police. There are good police in the world, and there are good police in this country. Many of them. But they exist in a very corrupt system with skewed incentives.

That makes them less effective.

We should be looking to reforn our police and judicial system to be more like they are in Germany. They are actually there to help people recover and reform, and as such have far lower rates of recidivism. The whole system is set up to help people improve.

The police here, and the way their incentives align simply can't be counted on to get to you in time to help you in an assault that typically takes few minutes.

And even if they do get to you in time, they aren't obligated to help you.

I don't think guns will necessarily make society safer. But they are used hundreds of thousand of times per year to help individuals and families defend themselves.

Guns are already here. And I think it's irresponsible to prevent law abiding citizens from keeping tools that could help them defend themselves from a more physically imposing attacker.

Though I am 100% fine with preventing dangerous and law breaking people from accessing those weapons legally.

So it's not that I hate all police, or want police eliminated. I want them held to a higher standard. The good police should welcome this.

But guns are not a replacent for police and police are not a replacent for guns.
 
calvin natt said:
“The boy went home, changed clothes, got into a parent's gun safe and retrieved a 9mm handgun with two loaded magazines”

Another useless gun safe. Fucking hell
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You can't prevent your teenage kids from getting into your stuff. Certainly not reliably.

They will look over your shoulder while you're entering the code. They will take your key while you're SLEEPING.

As horrible as it is to say, if they are going to go shoot up a school they will kill you and use your fingerprint.

Nobody will ALWAYS be as careful with their own kids as it would require to keep them out if they are motivated.

Nobody is on guard like that with their own kids.

It's not human nature.

It's critical that we address our mental well being and social policies in this country.
 
Phatguysrule said:
You can't prevent your teenage kids from getting into your stuff. Certainly not reliably.

They will look over your shoulder while you're entering the code. They will take your key while you're SLEEPING.

As horrible as it is to say, if they are going to go shoot up a school they will kill you and use your fingerprint.

Nobody will ALWAYS be as careful with their own kids as it would require to keep them out if they are motivated.

Nobody is on guard like that with their own kids.

It's not human nature.

It's critical that we address our mental well being and social policies in this country.
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Eh hard disagree. If I had a gun safe my kids would not be able to access it. Because I am not an idiot and all.
 
calvin natt said:
Eh hard disagree. If I had a gun safe my kids would not be able to access it. Because I am not an idiot and all.
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I have no doubt that you'd do everything in your power.



That whole setup can be had for under $100. You might even have most of it in your garage. I do.

The last school shooter spent $2k
 
Shaboid said:
He spent $2k at a gun store though. That's the difference. He didn't spend that money to break into a safe.
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True. Doesn't make much difference to me.

If he spent $100 to get into a safe and had a handgun with 3 or 4 magazines the outcome is the same...
 
Phatguysrule said:
True. Doesn't make much difference to me.

If he spent $100 to get into a safe and had a handgun with 3 or 4 magazines the outcome is the same...
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We completely disagree here.. He spent 2 g's on an AR-15. He wasn't sneaky and took a handgun from his parents safe with a few rounds. The rapid fire shouldered rifle with 100's of rounds. That's the difference.
 
Shaboid said:
We completely disagree here.. He spent 2 g's on an AR-15. He wasn't sneaky and took a handgun from his parents safe with a few rounds. The rapid fire shouldered rifle with 100's of rounds. That's the difference.
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I guess this is the part I don't get.

A handgun would have been just as effective. The end result would have been the same, would it not?

I've seen no evidence to suggest otherwise...

You pull the trigger and a pistol fires. As fast as you pull the trigger. Just like an AR.
 
Phatguysrule said:
You can't prevent your teenage kids from getting into your stuff. Certainly not reliably.

They will look over your shoulder while you're entering the code. They will take your key while you're SLEEPING.

As horrible as it is to say, if they are going to go shoot up a school they will kill you and use your fingerprint.

Nobody will ALWAYS be as careful with their own kids as it would require to keep them out if they are motivated.

Nobody is on guard like that with their own kids.

It's not human nature.

It's critical that we address our mental well being and social policies in this country.
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You make sure they aren't there if you put the code in. A good enough safe will keep them out. Also, parents not being idiots will keep them out.
 
Phatguysrule said:
I guess this is the part I don't get.

A handgun would have been just as effective. The end result would have been the same, would it not?

I've seen no evidence to suggest otherwise...

You pull the trigger and a pistol fires. As fast as you pull the trigger. Just like an AR.
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Less people would have died.
 
Phatguysrule said:
How?
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Less ammo. He would have only had a handgun with a few rounds. He would have expended some against the police. A hand gun probably wouldn't have deterred the police like the AR-15 did and they might have killed him sooner. Or, if he got in, less shots to shoot in the classroom equals less victims.
 
Phatguysrule said:
I guess this is the part I don't get.

A handgun would have been just as effective. The end result would have been the same, would it not?

I've seen no evidence to suggest otherwise...

You pull the trigger and a pistol fires. As fast as you pull the trigger. Just like an AR.
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Chris Craig said:
Less ammo. He would have only had a handgun with a few rounds. He would have expended some against the police. A hand gun probably wouldn't have deterred the police like the AR-15 did and they might have killed him sooner. Or, if he got in, less shots to shoot in the classroom equals less victims.
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What @Chris Craig said.

If you or I was going into a firefight or warzone, which would you rather have, an AR or a 9mm? There is one that is obviously more effective for defending yourself, or in this case "barricading yourself while murdering children".

If the dude had a handgun I have no doubt the 19 officers would have gone in there earlier.
 
Phatguysrule said:
I have no doubt that you'd do everything in your power.



That whole setup can be had for under $100. You might even have most of it in your garage. I do.

The last school shooter spent $2k
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Are these kids getting into the safe this way? Do we know this? Or finding keys?
 
calvin natt said:
Are these kids getting into the safe this way? Do we know this? Or finding keys?
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I don't know for sure exactly how they are getting in. Likely by knowing the code or getting keys. Finding keys seems to be the most likely. In Newtown he killed his mom and got the key to the safe where the big guns were kept.

I personally had access to everything in my house growing up, even the stuff I wasn't supposed to. I never abused that privilege, but I could have very easily.
 
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Shaboid said:
What @Chris Craig said.

If you or I was going into a firefight or warzone, which would you rather have, an AR or a 9mm? There is one that is obviously more effective for defending yourself, or in this case "barricading yourself while murdering children".

If the dude had a handgun I have no doubt the 19 officers would have gone in there earlier.
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How is an AR more deadly in a close situation? The first thing I'd want is a hand gun. Far easier to pack, less obvious that you have it, easier to aim quickly... Definitely would prefer a hand gun in a building.

If I'm trying to kill at distance I'd go for the AR. But that wasn't the situation.

What makes you think an AR is be more deadly in a baracaded situation?
 
Chris Craig said:
Less ammo. He would have only had a handgun with a few rounds. He would have expended some against the police. A hand gun probably wouldn't have deterred the police like the AR-15 did and they might have killed him sooner. Or, if he got in, less shots to shoot in the classroom equals less victims.
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Most pistols sold in the US come with between 10 and 17 rounds. It takes about a half a second change a magazine with an afternoon of practice...

I don't think this is as much of a factor as you think it is...
 
Phatguysrule said:
I don't know for sure exactly how they are getting in. Likely by knowing the code or getting keys. Finding keys seems to be the most likely. In Newtown he killed his mom and got the key to the safe where the big guns were kept.

I personally had access to everything in my house growing, even the stuff I wasn't supposed to. I never abused that privilege, but I could have very easily.
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That's on your parents.

Gun safes should be mandated to have passcode or combination locks. Or combo key/passcode/combination That itself would cut down on kids getting in safes.

There are obviously some pretty shitty safes out there. Unlike the Newtown shooter, most are not going to have a gun to kill mom unless they get into the safe to get the gun.
 
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