Fuck this healthcare Reform...

[maxiep]

It's great, they can get coffee, potato chips & artificial soda, but not a trip to the dentist.

It doesn't occur to you that our poor choose to purchase these items over health care? A trip to the dentist isn't very expensive.

 

[maxiep]

I don't think I can learn from your "free market is perfect and is never corruptible" form of economics...

That's not my contention at all. I posit that a well-regulated private market provides more wealth more efficiently to a broader scope of people than a socialist or communist system. For example, our poor would be considered middle class in much of Europe, even Western Europe. It also has the side benefit of allowing people to make more of their own choices. And I'm a sucker for freedom.

What is the point of having the most advanced healthcare system in the world if most people can't afford it at face value or you have to get the government to pay for it? I am not sure where you get off saying "the private sector has done such a great job", yet at the same time suggest if you don't have a house to sell off just have the government pick up the tab... Umm, isn't that kind of the opposite of what your point was?

That health care system still provides terrific health care for people, rich or poor, insured or uninsured. The indigent receive more and better care more quickly than do middle class people in single-payer systems. They obtain their health care through the emergency room rather than through a government agency, but they have access to it.

Do you ever wonder why there are massive hospitals in small towns on the US side of the Canadian border? Do you ask yourself why wealthy citizens of countries with single-payer health care systems purchase insurance policies that will bring them to the United States if they become ill? How about the presence of American Hospitals all over the world?

You're really discounting how much private charities support our health care system. Look at the name of your local hospital; dimes to donuts it has some sort of religious affiliation. And those without religious affiliation still have significant foundations attached to them.

 

[blazerboy30]

What is the point of having the most advanced healthcare system in the world if most people can't afford it at face value or you have to get the government to pay for it?

Some people can afford an and all of the advancements. Some people can afford some of the advancements... others can afford less, etc, etc. But even the people that get some of our advanced healthcare are still getting the best healthcare in the world. It is silly to try to argue that we should have a worse healthcare system so more people can afford it.

 

[Klinky]

Some people can afford an and all of the advancements. Some people can afford some of the advancements... others can afford less, etc, etc.

Most middle class families could not afford the direct out of pocket costs they would incur if they did not have insurance. Which is why we have insurance, but people can fall through the cracks pretty easily.

This also smells a lot like "rationing of care" or code for "death panels" which was flung at Obamacare during the healthcare debates.

But even the people that get some of our advanced healthcare are still getting the best healthcare in the world.

This greatly depends on how good your doctors are in your area. The Mayo Clinic is not on every street corner...

It is silly to try to argue that we should have a worse healthcare system so more people can afford it.

Not saying it has to be worse, but saying you have something great that people can barely afford with insurance isn't as helpful or advanced as you make it out to be.

 

[Klinky]

It doesn't occur to you that our poor choose to purchase these items over health care? A trip to the dentist isn't very expensive.

Without insurance it's going to be at least $150 - $200 for a cleaning w/ X-Rays. Need fillings or major dental work? You're looking at thousands of dollars... There are "dental clubs" that knock 40% off of some of the costs, but not everyone knows about them & sometimes it's only 20% off or even 0% off.

Optical is coming down in price, go get a prescription @ Wal-Mart & then buy your glasses direct from china instead of the eye-wear boutique. Decent glasses can be had for $15 - $30/pair.

Mental health is tough, even with insurance they only cover a limited amount of sessions. Some mental health drugs are available in low cost generic. Visiting a therapist or psychologist out of pocket is probably a going to be a couple hundred per visit though.

All of which is a bit more than a bag of chips.

 

[Denny Crane]

Doctors do pro bono work, you know.

 

[maxiep]

Without insurance it's going to be at least $150 - $200 for a cleaning w/ X-Rays. Need fillings or major dental work? You're looking at thousands of dollars... There are "dental clubs" that knock 40% off of some of the costs, but not everyone knows about them & sometimes it's only 20% off or even 0% off.

Optical is coming down in price, go get a prescription @ Wal-Mart & then buy your glasses direct from china instead of the eye-wear boutique. Decent glasses can be had for $15 - $30/pair.

Mental health is tough, even with insurance they only cover a limited amount of sessions. Some mental health drugs are available in low cost generic. Visiting a therapist or psychologist out of pocket is probably a going to be a couple hundred per visit though.

All of which is a bit more than a bag of chips.

The point is that people choose to purchase unnecessary items over healthcare. I know you like to deny it, but if you've truly exhausted your resources, you can qualify for Medicaid or state programs that provide these services for little if any cost. For example, dental schools are always looking for new patients, and it's free.

Our difference appears to be that I believe one should place the highest priority to providing for your family's healthcare while you seem to believe there should be some slack so that the poor aren't further burdened.

 

[Klinky]

Doctors do pro bono work, you know.

Doctors should work for free! Problem solved! Go into your nearest dentist and ask for free service, see how far you get. There are doctors who do free charity work from time to time, but those things are usually special events that don't happen very often.

The point is that people choose to purchase unnecessary items over healthcare.

Food is a necessity. Health insurance is also a necessity, but is too far out of reach for a lot of people.

I know you like to deny it, but if you've truly exhausted your resources, you can qualify for Medicaid or state programs that provide these services for little if any cost. For example, dental schools are always looking for new patients, and it's free.

Medicaid does not require states to provide dental coverage. Oregon Health Plan does not cover dental or vision, has very limited mental health coverage & limited prescription coverage.

Dental schools are not free.
http://www.ohsu.edu/xd/education/schools/school-of-dentistry/patient-care/admitting.cfm
Fees at the OHSU Dental School Urgent Care clinic can be up to $220 depending on treatment needed. Fee due at time of service.

Reduced fee due at time of service is on average 30% less than private practice. Actual fee difference may vary.

Doesn't sound free to me!

Our difference appears to be that I believe one should place the highest priority to providing for your family's healthcare while you seem to believe there should be some slack so that the poor aren't further burdened.

No, my point is that some people put a lot of effort into their healthcare but thanks to our porous safety nets, hardworking families or individuals may find their health & finances ruined by a major illness.

 

[maxiep]

Doctors should work for free! Problem solved! Go into your nearest dentist and ask for free service, see how far you get. There are doctors who do free charity work from time to time, but those things are usually special events that don't happen very often.

They occur often enough to cover a significant portion of people seeking health care. Is it going to be harder to get? Yep. Not everything is easy.

Food is a necessity. Health insurance is also a necessity, but is too far out of reach for a lot of people.

As I have said before, but you don't wish to listen, if you're so poor you can't afford anything but food, rudimentary shelter and basic clothing, you qualify for Medicare. You can also be seen anytime you show up at an emergency room. The problem is most people don't wish to make hard choices. CD's aren't a necessity. Designer clothes aren't a necessity. Soda isn't a necessity.

Medicaid does not require states to provide dental coverage. Oregon Health Plan does not cover dental or vision, has very limited mental health coverage & limited prescription coverage.

A couple of things. First, you can be referred to a dentist or an opthomologist and it is covered under Medicare. You just can't see them directly. Second, why does it have to be free? Plenty of people in the medical field negotiate on their fees. There are also plenty of free clinics.

Dental schools are not free.
http://www.ohsu.edu/xd/education/schools/school-of-dentistry/patient-care/admitting.cfm
Fees at the OHSU Dental School Urgent Care clinic can be up to $220 depending on treatment needed. Fee due at time of service.

Reduced fee due at time of service is on average 30% less than private practice. Actual fee difference may vary.

Doesn't sound free to me!

That's one. My uncle was a professor of dentistry and he helped run the FDU clinic. People at that clinic are asked to pay what they could, but no one paid, so it turned out to be free. Other people would offer to clean up or do other tasks for dental care. Bartering is alive and well in the medical fields.

No, my point is that some people put a lot of effort into their healthcare but thanks to our porous safety nets, hardworking families or individuals may find their health & finances ruined by a major illness.

The safety net works fine; it's just lower than you wish it to be. I see nothing wrong with having to sell one's house or car to pay for health care. Government doesn't have to be the answer; charities work just fine.

 

[Denny Crane]

My father was a doctor. Easily 1/3 of his work was pro bono and none of it was for special events. Doctors don't just turn away people who are really sick and need the help.

I sat on a jury a couple years back, where a young girl (6 years old) was thrown from a car during an accident and became a paraplegic. Her father was a handyman and her mother couldn't work. The neurologist who treated her took the stand and was first asked about her resume; it was clear she was one of the best around and makes $millions annually. The point being, the girl got treated.

 

[Sug]

Ever heard of Medicaid? We have a government program to pay for health care for those that can't afford it themselves.

Question: How much extra are you willing to pay to ensure that someone else doesn't have to pay for their own health insurance?

Also, you do know that there are plenty of charities out there that cover health care expenses. Not everything has to be done through the government.

Hahahahhahhahaaha. Wow what a great argument against yourself in 65 words. You cite Medicaid as a savior for those that cannot pay, then you cite charities that rely heavily on tax exemption to even function. You give with one hand only to take with the other, hence the major issue facing the GOP right now.

 

[maxiep]

Hahahahhahhahaaha. Wow what a great argument against yourself in 65 words. You cite Medicaid as a savior for those that cannot pay, then you cite charities that rely heavily on tax exemption to even function. You give with one hand only to take with the other, hence the major issue facing the GOP right now.

What's so hard to understand? Medicaid comprises part of the safety net and charities and donations comprise the other part. As for tax exemptions, they're non-profits, so exactly what is the government going to tax? Now if you're talking about a personal writeoff for charitable contributions, again your assumption seems to be that all money belongs to the government and whatever it doesn't need we get to use for ourselves. Funny, I view personal income exactly the opposite.

 

[Paxil]

It doesn't occur to you that our poor choose to purchase these items over health care? A trip to the dentist isn't very expensive.

O Really? Mother in law who just moved to Oregon just had a $10,000 quote for some dental work. My 2-year old daughter had to visit the emergency room for 3 stitches... the cost if we didn't have health insurance... $2,700!!!

 

[maxiep]

O Really? Mother in law who just moved to Oregon just had a $10,000 quote for some dental work. My 2-year old daughter had to visit the emergency room for 3 stitches... the cost if we didn't have health insurance... $2,700!!!

I was referring to a checkup, which runs about $150 with x-rays (at least that's why my current dentist charges). There are all kinds of dental work, however. Once again, if you require extensive dental work, you can be referred through a Medicaid physician to have oral surgery done.

As for your daughter, you could choose to do the stitches yourself, as my mother used to do for me. Also, if you pay in cash, the cost is much lower.

I guess the most surprising thing to me in this thread is that so many people think that their health care should be gold-plated, unlimited and free. We have to pay to keep up our automobiles and our homes, why should the upkeep and repair on our bodies be free, or worse, paid for by someone else?

 

[3RA1N1AC]

let them eat cake!

 

[maxiep]

let them eat cake!

Is it your contention that most people couldn't direct more of their own money to their health care? Also, do you think it's the responsibility of others to pay for your health care? If so, why?

 

[maxiep]

Luckily for the Administration, Obamacare is wildly popular

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs...5/other-news-obamacare-still-really-unpopular

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Is it your contention that most people couldn't direct more of their own money to their health care? Also, do you think it's the responsibility of others to pay for your health care? If so, why?

its common sense that most families cant afford an extra 500-1000 dollars a month, most of the middle class are living check to check, are you kidding me? maybe they could just charge it! lol and thats not even talking about the 1000-3000 dollar deductible

my health care is dialed through my job, no need to pay for mine bucko, its the millions of people who dont qualify for medicaid now, arent offered at their jobs, and cant afford it after mortgage/car/food/$4 GAS/ basic needs, so they are forced to play a percentage game with THEIR AND THEIR KIDS LIVES.

guess its just their own bad luck

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I just don't see how "insurance" is the right vehicle to administer health care. Everyone is guaranteed to have medical problems, needs, treatments. Trying to use something like insurance to cover and pay for everything is crazy. It's similar to filling claims on your car insurance for gas, tires, oil changes and maintenance. If we expected auto insurance to cover all of that how much would that insurance cost?

 

[3RA1N1AC]

I just don't see how "insurance" is the right vehicle to administer health care. Everyone is guaranteed to have medical problems, needs, treatments. Trying to use something like insurance to cover and pay for everything is crazy. It's similar to filling claims on your car insurance for gas, tires, oil changes and maintenance. If we expected auto insurance to cover all of that how much would that insurance cost?

would be better to wipe insurance out of the picture i agree

 

[maxiep]

its common sense that most families cant afford an extra 500-1000 dollars a month, most of the middle class are living check to check, are you kidding me? maybe they could just charge it! lol and thats not even talking about the 1000-3000 dollar deductible

my health care is dialed through my job, no need to pay for mine bucko, its the millions of people who dont qualify for medicaid now, arent offered at their jobs, and cant afford it after mortgage/car/food/$4 GAS/ basic needs, so they are forced to play a percentage game with THEIR AND THEIR KIDS LIVES.

guess its just their own bad luck

And my point is that many families put goods and services above health care expenses. If they prioritized it as a necessity, then perhaps they could afford it. Other "necessities" would then go by the wayside. It may mean renting instead of buying, doing without a second car, not having cable TV, etc.

 

[maxiep]

I just don't see how "insurance" is the right vehicle to administer health care. Everyone is guaranteed to have medical problems, needs, treatments. Trying to use something like insurance to cover and pay for everything is crazy. It's similar to filling claims on your car insurance for gas, tires, oil changes and maintenance. If we expected auto insurance to cover all of that how much would that insurance cost?

Medical insurance should be used for catastrophic items only, IMO. Regular upkeep and tests should be paid for out of pocket. However, that's not what the state insurance boards require. Insurance companies HAVE to provide all these extras to sell insurance in these states.

 

[chris_in_pdx]

And my point is that many families put goods and services above health care expenses. If they prioritized it as a necessity, then perhaps they could afford it. Other "necessities" would then go by the wayside. It may mean renting instead of buying, doing without a second car, not having cable TV, etc.

You are right! Who needs food, anyway?

 

[maxiep]

You are right! Who needs food, anyway?

You can cut back your food budget easily. Don't eat out. Buy in bulk. Make your own bread. Grow vegetables. Again, why is someone else's inability to pay their way my problem? I'm more than happy to help the truly helpless. I'm not interested in helping those that won't help themselves.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

why not give up clothes? become a nudist!
give up buying food! you can easily scavenge in dumpsters!
do your own stitches! and staples! make your own penicillin!
give up your car! the money you save waking up at midnight to start walking to work will almost pay for 1/3 of your premium!
get a smaller house! your kids can sleep on the kitchen floor!

for the love of god, listen to yourself....

 

[maxiep]

why not give up clothes? become a nudist!
give up buying food! you can easily scavenge in dumpsters!
do your own stitches! and staples! make your own penicillin!
give up your car! the money you save waking up at midnight to start walking to work will almost pay for 1/3 of your premium!
get a smaller house! your kids can sleep on the kitchen floor!

for the love of god, listen to yourself....

People used to be responsible for their own lives. There's nothing wrong with kids sharing a room, parents making their kids clothes or having a vegetable garden. Especially if the alternative is asking your neighbor to pay for your standard of living.

I see you having a lot of complaints but no solutions.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

People used to be responsible for their own lives. There's nothing wrong with kids sharing a room, parents making their kids clothes or having a vegetable garden. Especially if the alternative is asking your neighbor to pay for your standard of living.

I see you having a lot of complaints but no solutions.

nah dog, you are the one with the complaints, healthcare is on its way

and vegetable garden? hahaha!! yeah right next to the burned out dumpster...let them eat cake indeed

 

[maxiep]

nah dog, you are the one with the complaints, healthcare is on its way

and vegetable garden? hahaha!! yeah right next to the burned out dumpster...let them eat cake indeed

You simply don't like my solutions. Rationing is on its way; healthcare has nothing to do with the legislation that was passed. Ask your neighbors in the Bay State how long they have to wait to see a primary care physician.

Just to be clear, your alternative is that others fund your lifestyle because you don't feel like paying for your own healthcare or that of your family.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Ask your neighbors in the Bay State how long they have to wait to see a primary care physician.

Just to be clear, your alternative is that others fund your lifestyle because you don't feel like paying for your own healthcare or that of your family.

so just to be clear, you want sick babies to die in agonizing pain? just to be clear, you think poor people all deserve to die? just to be clear?

two can play at that game, although id rather not, you know, play games.

i swear to god, you guys are so full of shit, first ed o now you... fucking megalomaniacs

JUST TO BE CLEAR

i have health care, i am not looking for anyone to pay anything for me, so clean the fucking shit out of your ears

if you dont understand that, you are a fucking moron

and many of my friends live in mass, and they have never had a problem, maybe the wait is too long for you? you deserve better than everyone else? unreal, get a grip

 

[maxiep]

so just to be clear, you want sick babies to die in agonizing pain? just to be clear, you think poor people all deserve to die? just to be clear?

As I've explained to you, those cases receive health care. Your demagoguery doesn't play.

two can play at that game, although id rather not, you know, play games.

Sure you would. I offer solutions and alternatives and you only offer more complaints.

i swear to god, you guys are so full of shit, first ed o now you... fucking megalomaniacs

How am I megalomaniacal? I wish dominion over no one. I want all people to be free from coersion by others, especially faceless bureaucrats.

JUST TO BE CLEAR

i have health care, i am not looking for anyone to pay anything for me, so clean the fucking shit out of your ears

if you dont understand that, you are a fucking moron

Nope, I got it. You've explained your current situation. It may not always be your circumstance, however. If you lost your job tomorrow, you've made it clear that you would expect us to pay for your health care and the health care of your son. I'm just trying to confirm that's the case.

and many of my friends live in mass, and they have never had a problem, maybe the wait is too long for you? you deserve better than everyone else? unreal, get a grip

Your friends are the lucky ones: http://www.boston.com/news/health/blog/2011/05/wait_for_doctor.html

And it's only going to get worse: http://www.heartland.org/healthpoli...ic_Disappointment_Bode_Ill_for_Obamacare.html

http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/v30n1/cpr30n1-1.html