Fuck this healthcare Reform...

[blazerboy30]

So if a young child gets cancer (which is not always terminal and can be treated and reversed), and the parents cant afford treatment, its pretty much tough luck?

Well if everyone dies, at 1 or 100, if a lady gets pregnant and doesn't want to keep it, isn't it also of your belief then that the government should not be able to force her to keep it?

These two situations have nothing to do with each other.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Using PtldPlatypus's numbers for a family, that puts the family insurance cost at $2832 / year. Let's assume that a "family" is 4 people. That brings the yearly total to $708 / person / year.

Compare that to the proposed Obamacare costs and number insured. Using the last numbers I saw for the cost of Obamacare, and the number of people that would receive coverage, it comes out to $4500 / person / year.

Catastrophic insurance ~ $708 / year. Obamacare ~ $4500 / year.

Yeah, this thread title is pretty accurate.

Lets not use his numbers. That's not insurance.

A recent Kentucky Court of Appeals Opinion that ruled that a religious medical expense sharing plan isn't insurance and isn't subject to state insurance regulations.

 

[blazerboy30]

Lets not use his numbers. That's not insurance.

A recent Kentucky Court of Appeals Opinion that ruled that a religious medical expense sharing plan isn't insurance and isn't subject to state insurance regulations.

Alright.
I found some other data suggesting you can get individual catastrophic insurance for ~$1200 / year. 1200 <<< 4500.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Alright.
I found some other data suggesting you can get individual catastrophic insurance for ~$1200 / year. 1200 <<< 4500.

Catastrophic insurance is not health insurance.

I'm not trying to argue with you, just saying lets compare apples to apples.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Using PtldPlatypus's numbers for a family, that puts the family insurance cost at $2832 / year. Let's assume that a "family" is 4 people. That brings the yearly total to $708 / person / year.

Compare that to the proposed Obamacare costs and number insured. Using the last numbers I saw for the cost of Obamacare, and the number of people that would receive coverage, it comes out to $4500 / person / year.

Catastrophic insurance ~ $708 / year. Obamacare ~ $4500 / year.

Yeah, this thread title is pretty accurate.

catastrophic insurance, that covers checkups right? so that they can you know find cancer BEFORE it becomes "catastrophic"? or does obamacare not cover checkups? or are you comparing apples and racecars?

the us currently has the most one of if not the most expensive healthcare systems in the world. every year health care costs continue to rise while insurance companies raise premiums. a large reason why? 50 million uninsured americans who are forced to go to the emergency room for everything from an infected splinter, to a tick bite. as the most expensive place to receive care, going to the ER raises the cost of health care in general.

but hey, i can just make up stuff too, thats fun

 

[BrianFromWA]

here's what you guys are missing. Medical care is expensive. Everyone gets that. The issue is who has to pay for it.

Some people here think that everyone has a right to have life-saving treatment, damn the cost, and that someone else will pay. I see nowhere in our laws, our social contract, our morals, ethics, or values statements that leads me to believe that that is the right answer.

Lots of hypotheticals in this thread. But let's choose the one closest to me...that my 14 m/o girl gets some horrible, drawn-out disease. If I'm not willing to pay everything I have, sell everything I have, beg and borrow every dime I can from my parents to keep her alive, barter cleaning out the hospital for free during every off hour I can spare....why should every other American be forced to care more than I do?

I've used WIC, and I've used my unemployment insurance. I met the requirements to do so in each case and didn't feel an ounce of remorse b/c I paid for it beforehand, and wouldn't hesitate to use any program available to help my family.

I don't believe that just because someone is physically present within the borders of the United States that the government (and therefore, all of the ~50M taxpayers) is required to spend money to meet needs that they don't choose to meet. If I spent my entire (substantial for some people) paycheck on hookers/blow, why should I be paid by America to live in a nice city, be fed quality, nutritious food, and set up with medical care when I have my heart attack? "Because I feel like it?" Take that a step further...if I spent a smaller paycheck going to Disneyland (b/c I think every kid should go) and eating McD's 5x a week, the movies 2x a month and Starbucks every few days, watching cable TV and living in 1200sf b/c my kids need their own rooms, then why should I be paid by America to live in a nice city, be fed quality, nutritious food, and set up with medical care when I have my heart attack?

Work with the really poor for a bit and you'll see that it's not like the hypotheticals you have in your mind.

 

[BrianFromWA]

catastrophic insurance, that covers checkups right? so that they can you know find cancer BEFORE it becomes "catastrophic"? or does obamacare not cover checkups? or are you comparing apples and racecars?

the us currently has the most one of if not the most expensive healthcare systems in the world. every year health care costs continue to rise while insurance companies raise premiums. a large reason why? 50 million uninsured americans who are forced to go to the emergency room for everything from an infected splinter, to a tick bite. as the most expensive place to receive care, going to the ER raises the cost of health care in general.

but hey, i can just make up stuff too, thats fun

Whoa....why should Aetna (or pick an insurance company) be the target here? If costs go up, why shouldn't their premiums go up? Insurance companies don't have an obligation (like the government seems to think nowadays) to go into the red paying for your life. If you want to have a discussion about reducing the costs of medical care I'm all for that...but I've seen very little in Obamacare that addresses that.

And are you honestly complaining about having to pay for a checkup out of your own pocket?

 

[3RA1N1AC]

And are you honestly complaining about having to pay for a checkup out of your own pocket?

holy shit not another one of these guys

no i am not honestly complaining about having to pay for a checkup out of my own pocket, i never said that. not once.

learn how to fucking read if you are so goddamn smart.

 

[BrianFromWA]

I did.

catastrophic insurance, that covers checkups right?

or does obamacare not cover checkups?

I'll add this one, even though it's not "checkups"

50 million uninsured americans who are forced to go to the emergency room for everything from an infected splinter, to a tick bite.

No, they can pay for the doctor visit out of their own pocket.

Perhaps, if you think that multiple people are misconstruing your opinion, you should think about your ability to properly put your thoughts to words.

Edit: I also noticed that in your haste to attack reading credentials, you didn't answer either of my questions about insurance.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

I've used WIC, and I've used my unemployment insurance. I met the requirements to do so in each case and didn't feel an ounce of remorse b/c I paid for it beforehand, and wouldn't hesitate to use any program available to help my family.

you have used welfare
you felt no remorse
so why should anyone else? they dont deserve welfare either?

 

[3RA1N1AC]

I did.



Perhaps, if you think that multiple people are misconstruing your opinion, you should think about your ability to properly put your thoughts to words.

go ahead and explain to me where i said that I am honestly complaining about having to pay for a checkup out of MY own pocket...

unreal, get your shit together

 

[BrianFromWA]

wait, what?
WIC is not "welfare". "Unemployment insurance" is not "welfare". Each of those are programs with strict requirements to meet and which are paid for by my taxes. Are you saying I shouldn't have used what I paid for?

Secondly, no, I don't think people "deserve" to have someone pay for their health care (or food, or shelter) if they want to spend their resources on other things. At all. Period. End of the fucking story. Any more questions I can help you with?

 

[BrianFromWA]

go ahead and explain to me where i said that I am honestly complaining about having to pay for a checkup out of MY own pocket...

unreal, get your shit together

Fine, I'll rephrase...

Are YOU complaining about SOMEONE having to pay for ONE'S checkups out of ONE's own pocket?

Shit now together. Now are you going to start answering some questions?

 

[Denny Crane]

General comments on various posts I've read in this thread.

$10,000 isn't even a car loan.

I chose to not buy insurance for 10 years. When I went to the clinic to get a checkup or because I needed to see a doctor, it cost me $65 for the visit when the advertised price was $95. I had labs done for $200 when the advertised price was over $300. The moral of that story is I WAS IN CONTROL (not some insurance company), I got to choose my own doctor, and I haggled a lower price. If everyone was in control of their options, the cost of medical care would obviously go down ($95 -> $65, $300+ -> $200, etc.). Catastrophic ($10,000 deductible) insurance is really what's needed.

I haven't seen any elements of the ObamaCare plan that will reduce costs. All I see are new taxes/penalties if we don't fork over our dough to the insurance companies. This is easily the biggest corporate welfare program in the history of the world.

As I have written a few times, the government program that makes sense was never even considered. The government should have just built hospitals, hired doctors, bought machines and drugs, and sold actual health care to the masses for its cost. For all the $60 visits (at $50 cost), they could over charge by $10 and pool that extra money to pay for heart surgeries for the relative few who need such things. No doubt the quality of care would be about as good as the VA, but that's how good govt. services generally are. It beats nothing, doesn't contribute $.01 to insurance companies, and the competition with private sector doctors might drive their prices down to $60 also.

The insurance companies have guys called actuaries and other guys called accountants to figure out how to deliver services to the masses and to profit at the same time. They'll figure out whether it's cheaper to discourage people from going to the doctor early and often or to pay the huge costs of treating a preventable crisis.

 

[Denny Crane]

Oh yeah, if we stopped taxing doctors 60% income tax, maybe they'd give the rest of us a break.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

call it what you want bro, the eligibility requirement for wic is a family income level below 185% of the US poverty income guidelines

wic has a stigma just the same, I sure wouldnt want to cash in a wic voucher with everybody watching and judging

but you dont mind, you have no shame...ooh except when you shame others for doing the same thing

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Fine, I'll rephrase...

Are YOU complaining about SOMEONE having to pay for ONE'S checkups out of ONE's own pocket?

thank you for rephrasing your question to one that makes sense

no im not complaining at all, im quite happy that people who cant afford checkups will soon be able to receive them for their children

 

[PtldPlatypus]

thank you for rephrasing your question to one that makes sense

no im not complaining at all, im quite happy that people who cant afford checkups will soon be able to receive them for their children

What about people who can't afford a car to drive to work--should the government provide one for them? What about people who can't afford gas for their commute--should the government provide that as well? What about all the homeless people (who clearly can't afford shelter)--shouldn't the government be providing for all their basic needs?

Exactly what "needs" are the government responsible to cover, and which are individuals' responsibility?

 

[3RA1N1AC]

What about people who can't afford a car to drive to work--should the government provide one for them? What about people who can't afford gas for their commute--should the government provide that as well? What about all the homeless people (who clearly can't afford shelter)--shouldn't the government be providing for all their basic needs?

Exactly what "needs" are the government responsible to cover, and which are individuals' responsibility?

what about unemployment? should the government really pay people to sit at home and not work?

 

[BrianFromWA]

call it what you want bro, the eligibility requirement for wic is a family income level below 185% of the US poverty income guidelines

wic has a stigma just the same, I sure wouldnt want to cash in a wic voucher with everybody watching and judging

but you dont mind, you have no shame...ooh except when you shame others for doing the same thing

(a) I have shame. Not for using a program I paid for.
(b) I'm trying to figure out how I shame others for using WIC, when I say that my wife helps other moms who need to use the program.
(c) what does "shame" have to do with anything we're talking about? We're talking about costs, about the ability of the gov't to force you to do something, being denied care, etc...but "shame"? Seriously?

 

[BrianFromWA]

what about unemployment? should the government really pay people to sit at home and not work?

Again, it's unemployment "insurance". One has already paid a portion of their paycheck into it for as long as they've made a paycheck. And the gov't sets up pretty strict requirements...it's not just "sit at home and not work". If you're doing that, you're committing fraud.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

what about unemployment? should the government really pay people to sit at home and not work?

If they didn't, I would have no problem with that. At no point have I stated that I believe that that government paid unemployment benefits are a right. In fact, what I've said is that I don't begrudge anyone receiving what the government is already offering.

Now, that strawman aside, would you care to answer the question asked? You have indicated that you are happy with the government providing health care to poor people because they need it. What about other needs, such as those I spelled out? Should the government be providing those as well?

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Again, it's unemployment "insurance". One has already paid a portion of their paycheck into it for as long as they've made a paycheck. And the gov't sets up pretty strict requirements...it's not just "sit at home and not work". If you're doing that, you're committing fraud.

oh thats funny, because in most peoples checks theres a deduction for fica so is it cool for everyone to collect medicare too?

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Now, that strawman aside, would you care to answer the question asked? You have indicated that you are happy with the government providing health care to poor people because they need it. What about other needs, such as those I spelled out? Should the government be providing those as well?

hmm, no, i say save the sick babies THEN pay for everyones gas

 

[PtldPlatypus]

hmm, no, i say save the sick babies THEN pay for everyones gas

What about the homeless? What about the hungry? Do they take priority?

 

[3RA1N1AC]

What about the homeless? What about the hungry? Do they take priority?

cheeze leweege, if i dowt answer all of your questions tonight, ill be back tomorrow to satisfy your insatiable appetite for knowledge

lets start with the hungry...i believe we have food stamps and wic for the real destitute, although i think that it could be better implemented, its a good start

 

[PtldPlatypus]

cheeze leweege, if i dowt answer all of your questions tonight, ill be back tomorrow to satisfy your insatiable appetite for knowledge

lets start with the hungry...i believe we have food stamps and wic for the real destitute, although i think that it could be better implemented, its a good start

Damn right I'm insatiable. Ask my wife; she'll tell you.

So, the government needs to feed everyone and provide health care for kids, but not house homeless people. OK--got it.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Damn right I'm insatiable. Ask my wife; she'll tell you.

So, the government needs to feed everyone and provide health care for kids, but not house homeless people. OK--got it.

oh i was just pacing myself, i didnt want to blow my load too early

section 8 baby

 

[PtldPlatypus]

oh i was just pacing myself, i didnt want to blow my load too early

section 8 baby

Clearly not doing the trick--ever been downtown? Street corners are full of people that aren't being helped.

 

[chris_in_pdx]

This entire thread would be fucking hilarious if it wasn't so sad.