Fuck this healthcare Reform...

[STOMP]

Where's that kind of change we can believe in? Why keep costs astronomical and make the taxpayer subsidize it? If you want to change healthcare to provide better care to poor kids, do it in a sustainable and effective way and not one in which you're going to "unexpectedly" realize in a couple years that it doesn't work, but we've pumped $trillions into it.

unfortunately plenty of votes from both sides of the aisle were & are bought off by the healthcare industry. Those currently robbing the country blind are willing to pay the freight to obstruct any sort of real change to their looting of America. While it can be argued that the legislation that passed is a step in the right direction, it's not the legislation that the Obama administration proposed or wanted, it's what they settled for. Half assing anything is a recipe for failure which is probably why this bill was allowed to pass by those who didn't want it to go the public option direction that was gaining traction in the general population.

The answers seem pretty obvious but money corrupts our politics to the core. Leaches used to getting a large piece of the pie don't want to give their pie up. Pretty hard to see how to root it ($) out when those in charge own the media too and obviously we have some Americans buying the BS hook line and sinker. Socialized medicine works here in the states on a limited basis (the VA, medicare) and in many countries as the primary basis. Certainly we can do far far better then our current system, but those profiting from the current system are willing to pay out the wazoo to insure there is no change.

STOMP

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Certainly not this term. But this decade? Possibly. Depends on how the wind blows.

barfo

Just a guess, but I think Obamacare will be eventually dismantled.

 

[barfo]

Just a guess, but I think Obamacare will be eventually dismantled.

It seems likely to me that this supreme court, when it gets around to it, will indeed declare it unconstitutional.

And then we'll be back where we started, only the problem will be worse. Costs will still be going up. Coverage will still be going down. Eventually, everyone who isn't making a living off the healthcare industry will have had enough.

If you (people who have a vested interest in the current system) want to preserve it, you'd better start reforming it yourselves. Otherwise, it will be done for you, and the results will be much less favorable to you than "Obamacare".

barfo

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

And then we'll be back where we started, only the problem will be worse. Costs will still be going up. Coverage will still be going down. Eventually, everyone who isn't making a living off the healthcare industry will have had enough.

Costs are going up for reasons that are out of insurance companies control. Out of control lawsuits without merit and false reform to prevent the ones that are purely legal extortion. [As a med mal claims adjuster, I estimate 90% of the lawsuits I see are 100% without merit], liberal judges and state insurance commissioners forcing carriers to pay for rising costs... laying it all at the feet of the carriers is both false and disingenuous. If you want to reasonably debate, fine, but if you want to just lie, then there is no debate.

If you (people who have a vested interest in the current system) want to preserve it, you'd better start reforming it yourselves. Otherwise, it will be done for you, and the results will be much less favorable to you than "Obamacare".barfo

We do try. But the plaintiff attorney lobby is too strong. Remember, many of our legislators are attorneys and they are generally loathe to back common sense reform. Instead, more and more is forced on insurance carriers- same sex marriages that force carriers to take on people that are high risk, refusal to reform tort in meaningful ways [at our company over 60% of the money we receive from insures goes directly to fighting lawsuits- 90% of which are fraudulent], tilting the scale to the plaintiff unreasonably [as an example, in Oregon the laws set up decades ago tell a doctor the one way they can defend themselves is to fully inform the patient of the procedure, alternatives, risks and answer their questions. That's those forms you often sign. But, in the 1990's the Oregon judicial system determined that it was unreasonable for doctors to be able to use that as a defense. That decision alone in this state probably costs well over $100,000,000 per year alone. Who's going to pay for that? You & I. And that's one of many examples], refusal to allow for many stream lined processes.....

Now, barfo, to be sure we're not completely innocent in this mess, but insurance companies are force fed so much that the vast amount of costs are beyond our control. We beg and scream for reform, but it falls prey to special interest lobbyists and liberal politicians. I have several cases on my desk I'm well over $150,000 each to defend and they have zero value. But if I pay "go away" money (say, $10,000), I now can be sued by my insured for breach of contract or bad faith for settling a fully defensible case, and those lawsuits are typically in the low millions. What am I suppose to do? I raise rates to cover the damn costs, that's what I do or we're out of business. And if we all go out the doctors have no insurance. And when that happens are people are suing their brains out, they go out of business. All for the sake of liberal politics.

 

[Denny Crane]

The interesting thing is that single-payer clearly isn't unconstitutional, so maybe if this gets overturned by the Supremes, then we'll have single-payer sooner rather than later.

barfo

So much for lobbying your incorruptible govt. to force everyone to buy barfo's chili or face a fine.

Single payer isn't the answer. A system like the VA is.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

I prefer state run programs for those who are completely unable to have healthcare otherwise. I like it to also be considered a loan that is only repayable in part under certain circumstances so there is no undue hardship on the person. The feds will contribute to that state run system (like the OHP) yearly/ In other words, the feds heavily contribute to something that I think is a state issue.

 

[barfo]

Costs are going up for reasons that are out of insurance companies control. Out of control lawsuits without merit and false reform to prevent the ones that are purely legal extortion. [As a med mal claims adjuster, I estimate 90% of the lawsuits I see are 100% without merit], liberal judges and state insurance commissioners forcing carriers to pay for rising costs... laying it all at the feet of the carriers is both false and disingenuous. If you want to reasonably debate, fine, but if you want to just lie, then there is no debate.

Feel guilty do you? Well, you should. But I never said it was all the insurance companies fault. I said "those who make a living from the current healthcare system". You sort of jumped to the conclusion that I meant only the insurance companies.

We do try. But the plaintiff attorney lobby is too strong. Remember, many of our legislators are attorneys and they are generally loathe to back common sense reform. Instead, more and more is forced on insurance carriers- same sex marriages that force carriers to take on people that are high risk, refusal to reform tort in meaningful ways [at our company over 60% of the money we receive from insures goes directly to fighting lawsuits- 90% of which are fraudulent], tilting the scale to the plaintiff unreasonably [as an example, in Oregon the laws set up decades ago tell a doctor the one way they can defend themselves is to fully inform the patient of the procedure, alternatives, risks and answer their questions. That's those forms you often sign. But, in the 1990's the Oregon judicial system determined that it was unreasonable for doctors to be able to use that as a defense. That decision alone in this state probably costs well over $100,000,000 per year alone. Who's going to pay for that? You & I. And that's one of many examples], refusal to allow for many stream lined processes.....

Now, barfo, to be sure we're not completely innocent in this mess, but insurance companies are force fed so much that the vast amount of costs are beyond our control. We beg and scream for reform, but it falls prey to special interest lobbyists and liberal politicians. I have several cases on my desk I'm well over $150,000 each to defend and they have zero value. But if I pay "go away" money (say, $10,000), I now can be sued by my insured for breach of contract or bad faith for settling a fully defensible case, and those lawsuits are typically in the low millions. What am I suppose to do? I raise rates to cover the damn costs, that's what I do or we're out of business. And if we all go out the doctors have no insurance. And when that happens are people are suing their brains out, they go out of business. All for the sake of liberal politics.

barfo

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Feel guilty do you? Well, you should. But I never said it was all the insurance companies fault. I said "those who make a living from the current healthcare system". You sort of jumped to the conclusion that I meant only the insurance companies.

What in the world would I feel guilty for??? I just clean up the messes promulgated by progressive policies and judges.

 

[maxiep]

It's going to the Supreme Court, and in reality, Anthony Kennedy is going to decide it. So, I guess it's how he feels that morning.

My only warning is, if this expansion of the Commerce Clause is enacted, it may lead to a whole bunch of things the Left doesn't like. For example, Congress could pass a banning of abortions and all kind of birth control. Congress could force every new immigrant to take English lessons. Congress could force every American to purchase a Bible (no separation of church and state; it becomes an economic issue only). Congress could force every child to purchase school uniforms. The list goes on and on and on and on.

Welcome to the new dictatorship. It's cool when you're in power, but not so neat when the other side is.

 

[maxiep]

A nice discussion of Wickard v. Filburn, which is--before Obamacare--the greatest expansion of the Commerce Clause.

http://volokh.com/2011/08/14/distinguishing-wickard/

 

[maxiep]

http://campaign2012.washingtonexami...fidential/poll-obamacare-support-all-time-low

 

[oldguy]

From Maxi's link:

Kaiser also found that the public's awareness of some of the law's key provisions has also declined. While 65% of Americans know that Obamacare forces all Americans to buy health insurance, up from 64% in December 2010, the percentage of respondents who know that the law provides subsidies to low and moderate income Americans fell from 72% to 58%. The percentage of Americans who know that Obamacare expanded Medicaid also fell from 62% to 49%.

I wonder what percentage of Americans know that illegal immigrants will be getting Obama care, since the prez flat out lied about that?

Anyone see where that lie was exposed by any major media outlet? Am I the only one that thinks that lie is news-worthy?

Go Blazers

 

[maxiep]

http://reason.com/blog/2011/09/06/whoops-obamacare-backers-in-wi

 

[Denny Crane]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypi...ma-split-over-contentious-issue-of-obamacare/

Doctor And AMA Split Over Contentious Issue Of ObamaCare

For more than 160 years, the American Medical Association has served as the self-appointed chief lobbying group for doctors. But the AMA’s lofty status has been under threat over the last several years — and is under attack today. In fact, the AMA now only counts about 17% of doctors as members.

According to a new survey, the majority of doctors do not believe that the AMA represents their views and interests. Much of that dissatisfaction stems from the organization’s support for President Obama’s contentious health care reform package.

That shouldn’t be surprising. The AMA declares that its core mission is to “help doctors help patients.” But ObamaCare undermines that pursuit by making life harder for physicians and driving down the quality of care available to patients.

The survey — conducted by physician recruitment firm Jackson & Coker — is a brutal indictment of both the AMA and ObamaCare. Just 13% of doctors agree with their trade association’s support of the health reform law.

 

[maxiep]

We always knew they were honest about the accounting...

http://campaign2012.washingtonexami...bamacare-cost-176-trillion-over-10-yrs/425831

Jesus. What a fucking scam.

 

[maxiep]

At least it won't be a drag on small business...

http://washingtonexaminer.com/80-mi...macare-tax-rules/article/2508316#.UFiTC41lREN

 

[3RA1N1AC]

what is that, 20 minutes per person? one time?

the humanity!

 

[maxiep]

what is that, 20 minutes per person? one time?

the humanity!

Fifteen seconds in:

[video=youtube;bU6m5UqLx9M]

 

[3RA1N1AC]

80 million hours! thats 11 empire state buildings!! i love how they dumb down the scare tactics for middle america, apparently they think conservatives are idiots



so whats the average burden max? got a better estimate than my 20 minutes? what...an hour a year???

 

[maxiep]

80 million hours! thats 11 empire state buildings!! i love how they dumb down the scare tactics for middle america, apparently they think conservatives are idiots



so whats the average burden max? got a better estimate than my 20 minutes? what...an hour a year???

Do you think that paperwork is spread evenly, or do you think it's more likely that one or two people do it...I think they call them, um, what's the name? Oh, yeah: Accountants. That's time that they're not producing things of value, but simply to adhere to government regulations. As Kramer was told, "It's almost like you have no business training whatsoever."

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Do you think that paperwork is spread evenly, or do you think it's more likely that one or two people do it...

so you are saying 40-80 million hours per person?

 

[3RA1N1AC]

and save the self righteous bullshit max, you are just a loser posting on a message board like the rest of us, if you had it any better you would be banging your supermodel wife on a yacht right now instead of frantically trying to prove how smart you are all day

 

[maxiep]

and save the self righteous bullshit max, you are just a loser posting on a message board like the rest of us, if you had it any better you would be banging your supermodel wife on a yacht right now instead of frantically trying to prove how smart you are all day

Butthurt much? Don't be pissed at me that you make stupid points and I call you out on them. Look in the mirror or think before you post.

 

[RR7]

nothing like a grown man using the word butthurt. lol

 

[maxiep]

nothing like a grown man using the word butthurt. lol

Who says I'm a grown man? I could be an asian teenage girl.

 

[MickZagger]

and save the self righteous bullshit max, you are just a loser posting on a message board like the rest of us, if you had it any better you would be banging your supermodel wife on a yacht right now instead of frantically trying to prove how smart you are all day

He's on a yacht in the St. Tropez having his assistant type up his posts, drinking a virgin martini with his pinky sticking out.

 

[MickZagger]

[video=youtube;PKs6y9_d2ps]

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Butthurt much? Don't be pissed at me that you make stupid points and I call you out on them. Look in the mirror or think before you post.

butthurt none, it just points to failings in your upbringing

 

[maxiep]

butthurt none, it just points to failings in your upbringing

Let me get this straight: You make an idiotic comment, I point it out and the failing is mine? kthx.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

the failing is not yours

your reading comprehension failings on the other hand...