Fuck this healthcare Reform...

[Denny Crane]

I read that article. It's projecting $6T+ added to the debt over 75 years.

There won't be a country in 75 years, so the point is moot.

 

[mook]

Really interesting in-depth article at Time about the reasons behind our ridiculously overpriced health care system. It's not really partisan--it just examines why a $.25 aspirin at a hospital costs $5.00. Obamacare is addressed, but not really highlighted as a great innovation in driving down cost.

The really interesting point is that the health care industry has succeeded in making us debate how health care gets paid, and not why it gets paid so much. It doesn't want us to think about that.

http://healthland.time.com/2013/02/20/bitter-pill-why-medical-bills-are-killing-us/

 

[mook]

Essentially, the main issue seems to be consolidation of health care providers. As there are fewer hospitals and independent doctors, insurers have less and less leverage. Much of it is really an anti-trust issue that can't be solved through legislation because health care spends more on Congressional lobbying than even defense contractors. There's also the completely opaque nature of billing, the incentives to prescribe overpriced tests, the nature of a service that you can't really refuse to accept (because you may die)....basically it paints a picture where the only thing that stands a chance against this monolithic industry is Medicare, and it's hamstrung by internal bureaucracies, Congress, etc.

TLDR: Shits fucked up, yo. *shrug*

 

[Denny Crane]

Really interesting in-depth article at Time about the reasons behind our ridiculously overpriced health care system. It's not really partisan--it just examines why a $.25 aspirin at a hospital costs $5.00. Obamacare is addressed, but not really highlighted as a great innovation in driving down cost.

The really interesting point is that the health care industry has succeeded in making us debate how health care gets paid, and not why it gets paid so much. It doesn't want us to think about that.

http://healthland.time.com/2013/02/20/bitter-pill-why-medical-bills-are-killing-us/

I bought a bag of coffee beans at the grocery store for $7. It makes maybe 120 cups of coffee. 6 gallon bottles of water at $1 each. For $13, I get less than $.10 per cup.

I go to Starbucks and pay $2.25 for a cup of coffee.

Seems like Starbucks has a bigger markup than the hospital does.

(Hint: they both mark things up for the same reason - to stay in business, pay their rent and salaries, etc.)

 

[mook]

I bought a bag of coffee beans at the grocery store for $7. It makes maybe 120 cups of coffee. 6 gallon bottles of water at $1 each. For $13, I get less than $.10 per cup.

I go to Starbucks and pay $2.25 for a cup of coffee.

Seems like Starbucks has a bigger markup than the hospital does.

(Hint: they both mark things up for the same reason - to stay in business, pay their rent and salaries, etc.)

Yeah, coffee and health care are exactly the same. I'm glad you were able to conclude that from the article. Bully for you.

 

[Denny Crane]

Yeah, coffee and health care are exactly the same. I'm glad you were able to conclude that from the article. Bully for you.

They're not the same. What is the same is both Starbucks and the hospital have to pay rent, pay employees, pay for everything when there's lots of customers or few (or none), etc.

We don't need more hospitals, contrary to what your opinion piece stated. We need lots of clinics to dispense aspirin instead of having hospitals do it. Hospitals are where people should go only if they need to be there for extended stays, or only if they have the equipment needed to perform some outpatient service.

 

[mook]

The piece didn't say we needed more hospitals.

Also, it wasn't an opinion piece.

 

[drexlersdad]

I bought a bag of coffee beans at the grocery store for $7. It makes maybe 120 cups of coffee. 6 gallon bottles of water at $1 each. For $13, I get less than $.10 per cup.

yeah, but how do you take it

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

This is a new one, I heard of a Beverly Hills Primary Care Physician who is adding an annual $500 fee for "administrative" duties for all of his patients, otherwise he will charge $50 for each incident of email communication, medical records requests, etc and a bunch of basic administrative services..... lol. wtf. kind of started the letter with a rant on the changing healthcare climate in this country.

 

[jlprk]

I just checked. Maxiep has 1/4 of the posts in this thread, 173. He enjoys seeing the title. I have 5 posts. I thought I had about 1.

They're not the same. What is the same is both Starbucks and the hospital have to pay rent, pay employees, pay for everything when there's lots of customers or few (or none), etc.

We don't need more hospitals, contrary to what your opinion piece stated. We need lots of clinics to dispense aspirin instead of having hospitals do it. Hospitals are where people should go only if they need to be there for extended stays, or only if they have the equipment needed to perform some outpatient service.

A Starbucks store doesn't have 200 employees making a half-million dollars each, like a hospital. Unlike Starbucks employees, each doctor has hiring authority back at his own business and overpays top nurses because he's made of money. Salesmen walk in and sell medical equipment at a high markup because doctors are not exactly spendthrifts.

It's not a good comparison, trying to fit medical economics into ordinary capitalism. Better would be to examine how so many countries have made medical care a civil right, and consolidated spending decisions to make that practical.

 

[Denny Crane]

The piece didn't say we needed more hospitals.

Also, it wasn't an opinion piece.

Of course it's an opinion piece.

As there are fewer hospitals and independent doctors, insurers have less and less leverage.

 

[Denny Crane]

yeah, but how do you take it

As you like your women: ground up and in the freezer.

 

[Denny Crane]

I just checked. Maxiep has 1/4 of the posts in this thread, 173. He enjoys seeing the title. I have 5 posts. I thought I had about 1.



A Starbucks store doesn't have 200 employees making a half-million dollars each, like a hospital. Unlike Starbucks employees, each doctor has hiring authority back at his own business and overpays top nurses because he's made of money. Salesmen walk in and sell medical equipment at a high markup because doctors are not exactly spendthrifts.

It's not a good comparison, trying to fit medical economics into ordinary capitalism. Better would be to examine how so many countries have made medical care a civil right, and consolidated spending decisions to make that practical.

Ordinary capitalism? What is that? Never heard of it.

 

[bluefrog]

We don't need more hospitals, contrary to what your opinion piece stated. We need lots of clinics to dispense aspirin instead of having hospitals do it. Hospitals are where people should go only if they need to be there for extended stays, or only if they have the equipment needed to perform some outpatient service.

The article didn't call for more hospitals....

 

[Denny Crane]

Essentially, the main issue seems to be consolidation of health care providers. As there are fewer hospitals and independent doctors, insurers have less and less leverage. Much of it is really an anti-trust issue that can't be solved through legislation because health care spends more on Congressional lobbying than even defense contractors. There's also the completely opaque nature of billing, the incentives to prescribe overpriced tests, the nature of a service that you can't really refuse to accept (because you may die)....basically it paints a picture where the only thing that stands a chance against this monolithic industry is Medicare, and it's hamstrung by internal bureaucracies, Congress, etc.

TLDR: Shits fucked up, yo. *shrug*

That's what I was responding to.

 

[porkchopexpress]

I bought a bag of coffee beans at the grocery store for $7. It makes maybe 120 cups of coffee. 6 gallon bottles of water at $1 each. For $13, I get less than $.10 per cup.

I go to Starbucks and pay $2.25 for a cup of coffee.

Seems like Starbucks has a bigger markup than the hospital does.

(Hint: they both mark things up for the same reason - to stay in business, pay their rent and salaries, etc.)

What bag of coffee yields 120 cups? Say, this $7 bag is a pound (this would be cheap coffee and even though I don't like Starbucks, its higher quality than this). For a regular french press, you use 56 grams of coffee (proper ratio is 7 grams per 4oz). This produces 3-4 mugs (roughly 8-10 oz each) of coffee. That 1# bag is 450 grams, or 8 french presses worth. That means that 1 pound bag makes 24-32 mugs worth. Since I'm guessing your pricing is on a tall coffee, we'll say that makes about 24 of those. I know french press uses more coffee than other methods, but it does not take 5 times more grounds.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

What bag of coffee yields 120 cups? Say, this $7 bag is a pound (this would be cheap coffee and even though I don't like Starbucks, its higher quality than this). For a regular french press, you use 56 grams of coffee (proper ratio is 7 grams per 4oz). This produces 3-4 mugs (roughly 8-10 oz each) of coffee. That 1# bag is 450 grams, or 8 french presses worth. That means that 1 pound bag makes 24-32 mugs worth. Since I'm guessing your pricing is on a tall coffee, we'll say that makes about 24 of those. I know french press uses more coffee than other methods, but it does not take 5 times more grounds.

We buy coffee at Costco. I brew the full 12-cup pot everyday for 2-3 weeks on that one bag. And I make my coffee dark. At two weeks, 14 days x 12 cups = 168.
I think you may be missing on the measurement of a cup versus your cup/mug. There may be some of the difference here.

 

[Denny Crane]

We buy coffee at Costco. I brew the full 12-cup pot everyday for 2-3 weeks on that one bag. And I make my coffee dark. At two weeks, 14 days x 12 cups = 168.
I think you may be missing on the measurement of a cup versus your cup/mug. There may be some of the difference here.

I buy the store brand of coffee. It's $6.99. I make 10x 12 cup pots before I need a new bag. It is what it is.

It gets really fun when you pay $4.50 for them to put a little milk and chocolate syrup in the coffee.

 

[porkchopexpress]

We buy coffee at Costco. I brew the full 12-cup pot everyday for 2-3 weeks on that one bag. And I make my coffee dark. At two weeks, 14 days x 12 cups = 168.
I think you may be missing on the measurement of a cup versus your cup/mug. There may be some of the difference here.

How big and how much is your costco bag? I'm guessing at least 5 pounds and not $7 (though cheaper on per oz than my example). Normal, grocery store bought, coffee is sold in 12 oz or 1 pound bags. Also, your 12 cup coffee pot is only 48-60oz (4 or 5oz/cup), so based on a "tall" coffee, only 5 servings.

I am sure I am right on the ratio. It is 1T (7 grams) per 4 oz.
http://stumptowncoffee.com/brew-guides/press-pot/

You’ll need one tablespoon (7 grams) of coffee for every 4 oz of water. in other words, if you have a 34 oz (8 cup) Press Pot, you’ll want to use 8 tablespoons of coffee

This Cuisinart machine reccomdends 1T per cup and 5oz per cup so not that much less than what I said for french press.
http://www.amazon.com/Cuisinart-DCC-1200-Central-Programmable-Coffeemaker/dp/B00005IBX9

The cups on the Cuisinart coffeemaker measure 5 ounces. Add the amount of ground coffee that corresponds to the number of cups being brewed. Many coffee bars and the Specialty Coffee Association of America recommend adding 2 rounded tablespoons of coffee per 6 ounces of water. Some coffee manufactures recommend using 1 tablespoon per cup. Cuisinart recommends using 1 tablespoon of ground coffee per cup

 

[porkchopexpress]

I buy the store brand of coffee. It's $6.99. I make 10x 12 cup pots before I need a new bag. It is what it is.

It gets really fun when you pay $4.50 for them to put a little milk and chocolate syrup in the coffee.

12 cup pot = 48-60oz. A tall coffee is 12oz, which is at most 5 per pot. 5x10 = 50 tall coffees, not 120.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

How big and how much is your costco bag? I'm guessing at least 5 pounds and not $7 (though cheaper on per oz than my example). Normal, grocery store bought, coffee is sold in 12 oz or 1 pound bags. Also, your 12 cup coffee pot is only 48-60oz (4 or 5oz/cup), so based on a "tall" coffee, only 5 servings.

I am sure I am right on the ratio. It is 1T (7 grams) per 4 oz.
http://stumptowncoffee.com/brew-guides/press-pot/


This Cuisinart machine reccomdends 1T per cup and 5oz per cup so not that much less than what I said for french press.
http://www.amazon.com/Cuisinart-DCC-1200-Central-Programmable-Coffeemaker/dp/B00005IBX9

It's a 2-3 lb. bag, but I'm pretty sure it's only two pounds (and it's $11-12, but I'm over the 120 cups, so if you break it down.....).

But that wasn't my point. My point is that I think your definition of a "cup" wasn't the same as Denny's definition of a "cup". That's all I was trying to get at.

 

[porkchopexpress]

It's a 2-3 lb. bag, but I'm pretty sure it's only two pounds (and it's $11-12, but I'm over the 120 cups, so if you break it down.....).

But that wasn't my point. My point is that I think your definition of a "cup" wasn't the same as Denny's definition of a "cup". That's all I was trying to get at.

The problem is Denny is using 2 different 'cups' in his example. A cup on a pot is 4-5oz. A cup at Starbucks is 12oz. I'm assuming a tall coffee based on this below, which says a tall drip coffee in Manhattan cost $2.01 after tax as of last January, so cheaper than his example (so maybe his price is for a grand 16oz drip, I'm not sure cause I don't go to Starbucks very often).

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/15/y...o-round-final-number.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[Denny Crane]

http://www.bluemoosecoffee.com/Brewing_Coffee.html#154497

1 lb makes 41 venti sized cups of coffee, at 18 oz per 20oz venti cup (they don't fill to the brim).

$7/41 is $.17 per cup.

Sue me.

 

[porkchopexpress]

http://www.bluemoosecoffee.com/Brewing_Coffee.html#154497

1 lb makes 41 venti sized cups of coffee, at 18 oz per 20oz venti cup (they don't fill to the brim).

$7/41 is $.17 per cup.

Sue me.

Your link also says that 1 pound of coffee yields 100T, which is not true. It also says 1 T of ground coffee = 1 T of whole beans, which is obviously not true. And despite their chart that says for 12 cup pot use 9 T, they later say

Start with a 1 to 1 ratio, 1 level tablespoon of ground coffee to 1 cup (cup as marked on coffee

They say to START with 1:1, which is more in line with other guidelines. If we use their 1:1, then 1 pound = 453 grams = 64T grounds (7grams per T) = 64 "cups"=320oz(5oz per cup)=18 Venti sized (at 18oz)= $.41/venti cup. Yes, I know there is still a mark up. That wasn't my point. My point was you were using 2 different 'cups' to show a pricing discrepancy between home brewing coffee and buying at Starbucks.

 

[Denny Crane]

Your link also says that 1 pound of coffee yields 100T, which is not true. It also says 1 T of ground coffee = 1 T of whole beans, which is obviously not true. And despite their chart that says for 12 cup pot use 9 T, they later say

They say to START with 1:1, which is more in line with other guidelines. If we use their 1:1, then 1 pound = 453 grams = 64T grounds (7grams per T) = 64 "cups"=320oz(5oz per cup)=18 Venti sized (at 18oz)= $.41/venti cup. Yes, I know there is still a mark up. That wasn't my point. My point was you were using 2 different 'cups' to show a pricing discrepancy between home brewing coffee and buying at Starbucks.

We buy our coffee by the pound. Starbucks buys it by the ton

You are being picky over a non point. The real point is there's a huge markup on the coffee, just like there is on the aspirin. People pay for the coffee, which is a luxury. They complain about the cost when it's health care.

Most hospitals are non-profit. They only reason for them to stockpile cash is to invest in new equipment or buildings to acquire other hospitals, or maybe to fund a union pension plan.

I'm not sticking up for hospitals or prices charged for health care. That is not my point at all. The people attacking the profession are missing the mark.

The mark being that there is an awfully distorted kind of market for the services and medicines. If you or I had to take care of our own health care, we'd be buying bags of coffee and bottles of water instead of paying $2.25 for it all the time at starbucks.

 

[porkchopexpress]

We buy our coffee by the pound. Starbucks buys it by the ton

You are being picky over a non point. The real point is there's a huge markup on the coffee, just like there is on the aspirin. People pay for the coffee, which is a luxury. They complain about the cost when it's health care.

Most hospitals are non-profit. They only reason for them to stockpile cash is to invest in new equipment or buildings to acquire other hospitals, or maybe to fund a union pension plan.

I'm not sticking up for hospitals or prices charged for health care. That is not my point at all. The people attacking the profession are missing the mark.

The mark being that there is an awfully distorted kind of market for the services and medicines. If you or I had to take care of our own health care, we'd be buying bags of coffee and bottles of water instead of paying $2.25 for it all the time at starbucks.

The point i'm being picky on isn't that both Starbucks and hospitals charge a huge mark up (I agree they do), I just thought it was a deliberate oversight that made in order to make your point.

 

[Denny Crane]

The point i'm being picky on isn't that both Starbucks and hospitals charge a huge mark up (I agree they do), I just thought it was a deliberate oversight that made in order to make your point.

I could have used the hot dog cart/vendor equally as an example. The markup on a bun, hot dog, and condiments is huge.

 

[porkchopexpress]

I could have used the hot dog cart/vendor equally as an example. The markup on a bun, hot dog, and condiments is huge.

Well I have no experience buying hot dogs (from the store or vendors) so you'd get no complaints from me . I'm guessing they make all their money exploiting the hot dog and bun package quantity discrepancy. Some sort of processed meat arbitrage.

 

[Denny Crane]

Well I have no experience buying hot dogs (from the store or vendors) so you'd get no complaints from me . I'm guessing they make all their money exploiting the hot dog and bun package quantity discrepancy. Some sort of processed meat arbitrage.

I'm guessing the vendor jacks up his prices because he only gets business during lunch hour. However, I once did the math and it turns out a hot dog vendor makes a lot more than you'd expect.

http://thehotdogcart.com/hd_income.html


The average income for a hot dog vendor, working year round is about $100,000/ear. The maximum income for you, is essentially unlimited

A hot dog with bun and toppings costs an average of 50 cents

An average vendor resells a hot dog for $2.50

Sell 100 hot dogs a day you will earn $52,000/year

Sell 250 hot dogs a day you will earn $130,000/year

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

I'm guessing the vendor jacks up his prices because he only gets business during lunch hour. However, I once did the math and it turns out a hot dog vendor makes a lot more than you'd expect.

http://thehotdogcart.com/hd_income.html


The average income for a hot dog vendor, working year round is about $100,000/ear. The maximum income for you, is essentially unlimited

A hot dog with bun and toppings costs an average of 50 cents

An average vendor resells a hot dog for $2.50

Sell 100 hot dogs a day you will earn $52,000/year

Sell 250 hot dogs a day you will earn $130,000/year

I knew a hot dog vendor. She made pretty good money, considering she stood downtown for 6 hours per day.

Also, a friend-of-a-friend had a bike built with a warmer and a cooler. Used to ride around the SoCal beach selling dogs and soda all day while back from college for the summer. After all expenses, he walked away with $30-35K for 4 months' work.