Fuck this healthcare Reform...

[OSUBlazerfan]

What, you think all the people who are either A: poor B: unemployed C: uninsured or D: whatever, are just lazy people who got everything handed to them on a silver platter?

God I hope you never lose your job and can't find one that has health insurance and you lose your house. You'd obviously only have yourself to blame, since "if you work hard, you make it in this country".

That would be devastating, but i would have to find a job. I would cut everything of "luxury" out of my life so i could at least pay my mortgage, even health insurance in that case, but with this bill thats another thing i will potentially have to pay no matter if i have the money of not.

 

[julius]

No econmic model is "Perfect" but capitalism is as close as it gets, thats why this country had been the greatest country in the world for over a hundred years.

I'm not sure we've been the "greatest country in the world" for over 100 years. Realistically, economically, we haven't been the "greatest" since after WWII.

I worked at fred meyer for 1 year when i was 16 (I hate fred meyer after that job)
I worked another year for a janitorial firm when i was 17 overnight while going to school.

So again, i worked pretty shitty jobs too.

I'm sure many (if not all) of us can come up with crappy jobs we've had. The difference is, your home was provided for you and you weren't trying to provide food, shelter, clothing (etc) for a family. You weren't a parent (at least, I would bet not) at the time.

You weren't in your 40's after having to work a shitty job for 20+ years because you weren't offered the chance to improve your education.

Poor you, you worked at Fred Meyer for a year, and as a janitor for another year. Boo fucking hoo.

You had a chance to go to college, a lot of people don't even have that chance.

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

I'm not sure we've been the "greatest country in the world" for over 100 years. Realistically, economically, we haven't been the "greatest" since after WWII.



I'm sure many (if not all) of us can come up with crappy jobs we've had. The difference is, your home was provided for you and you weren't trying to provide food, shelter, clothing (etc) for a family. You weren't a parent (at least, I would bet not) at the time.

You weren't in your 40's after having to work a shitty job for 20+ years because you weren't offered the chance to improve your education.

Poor you, you worked at Fred Meyer for a year, and as a janitor for another year. Boo fucking hoo.

You had a chance to go to college, a lot of people don't even have that chance.

What strips anyone from a chance to go to college? or high school for that matter?

 

[RR7]

No econmic model is "Perfect" but capitalism is as close as it gets, thats why this country had been the greatest country in the world for over a hundred years.

About your point of the people who work shitty jobs etc.

My parents worked those jobs, berry picking, janitorial work, and whatever else work they can get. But eventually they were able to get out of that rut of a life and climb the ladder. Thats what im saying, anyone can do it with hard work, you dont have to be smart.

I worked at fred meyer for 1 year when i was 16 (I hate fred meyer after that job)
I worked another year for a janitorial firm when i was 17 overnight while going to school.

So again, i worked pretty shitty jobs too.

And it's admirable to have worked shitty jobs. But what of an older individual who is laid off from their lon gheld position, and loses their health insurance that came with it. My assumption is berry picking isn't going to provide health insurance. There are a lot of jobs that do not provide health insurance out there. Someone 50 years old getting laid off, or even older, is much less likely to climb the ladder of success at a company. That generally takes time and investment in a company, something that 50 something year old likely won't have. Desperation leads to taking any job available, including shitty jobs, but what happens when medical bills from a previous condition they were already insured for become too much? Fuck 'em?

 

[julius]

That would be devastating, but i would have to find a job. I would cut everything of "luxury" out of my life so i could at least pay my mortgage, even health insurance in that case, but with this bill thats another thing i will potentially have to pay no matter if i have the money of not.

What if you can't find another job or the cost to pay your mortgage or health insurance is far more than you can afford?

let's say you're in your mid 40's, and you have a family of 3 kids and a wife. You lose your job, and haven't been able to find one to replace it. even if your spouse works, it's not enough for 3 kids and two adults. Even if you life thrifty, you can't afford the potentially 1000+ a month of health insurance (out of pocket), + your mortgage + food + the other necessities in life.

Are you now lazy because you can't find a job that pays for those things?

It's easy to say, as someone who has a job with health insurance that you'd do XYZ. A lot of people can't just 'find a job' that allows them to keep insurance.

 

[julius]

What strips anyone from a chance to go to college? or high school for that matter?

some people aren't smart enough for college, some people can't afford to go to college.

while it's possible, it's a bit hard for a single mom (with say, 2 kids under 5) to go to college (or return to college).

Not everyone can afford to go to college, even WITH student loans/scholarships, etc.

What if you're personally responsible for everyone in your family, and don't have anyone else making money in your group? not impossible, but for some, it's not feasible.

 

[OddEnormous]

No econmic model is "Perfect" but capitalism is as close as it gets, thats why this country had been the greatest country in the world for over a hundred years.

About your point of the people who work shitty jobs etc.

My parents worked those jobs, berry picking, janitorial work, and whatever else work they can get. But eventually they were able to get out of that rut of a life and climb the ladder. Thats what im saying, anyone can do it with hard work, you dont have to be smart.

I worked at fred meyer for 1 year when i was 16 (I hate fred meyer after that job)
I worked another year for a janitorial firm when i was 17 overnight while going to school.

So again, i worked pretty shitty jobs too.

"Capitalism is as close to perfect as you can get" is only an opinion. In fact one could easily argue Communism is perfection or socialism or cannibalism.

Calling this country the greatest in the world is also only an opinion. Some people hate it here. Some don't even have an opinion on it. Some have never heard of it.

This is a fact. YOU are only successful because there are unsuccessful people.

Again, just be grateful you were smart enough and lucky enough to succeed in this system and be grateful there are others who were not.

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

What if you can't find another job or the cost to pay your mortgage or health insurance is far more than you can afford?

let's say you're in your mid 40's, and you have a family of 3 kids and a wife. You lose your job, and haven't been able to find one to replace it. even if your spouse works, it's not enough for 3 kids and two adults. Even if you life thrifty, you can't afford the potentially 1000+ a month of health insurance (out of pocket), + your mortgage + food + the other necessities in life.

Are you now lazy because you can't find a job that pays for those things?

It's easy to say, as someone who has a job with health insurance that you'd do XYZ. A lot of people can't just 'find a job' that allows them to keep insurance.

This is a good point, but i would continue to look for a job in my domain, if i couldnt then i would become desperate and work minimum wage of what is it, like 8$ an hour for 40 hours a week. Which for two people comes out to be like 2500$ and net prob around 2200$, so i would have to make due with that 2200$ a month.

Nothing else i could do

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

"Capitalism is as close to perfect as you can get" is only an opinion. In fact one could easily argue Communism is perfection or socialism or cannibalism.

Calling this country the greatest in the world is also only an opinion. Some people hate it here. Some don't even have an opinion on it. Some have never heard of it.

This is a fact. YOU are only successful because there are unsuccessful people.

Again, just be grateful you were smart enough and lucky enough to succeed in this system and be grateful there are others who were not.

Yea, its definitly my point of view, and not fact, i agree. But i have seen from my own expirience, how communism destroys entire countries, and my Original Point is that i left (my parents) the oppression of communism to come be a part of this capitalistic country

 

[julius]

I went to school with a guy who will never be able to hold down a decent job. He had severe learning disabilities, and for him to get jobs that would be high paying (to pay for his health insurance) or provide health insurance, were slim.

Fuck him and his born disabilities! FUCK HIM! WE'RE NOT COMMIES!!!!!!!!!

AMERICAN #1! CAPITALISM #1! COMMUNISM!? AWK-TWA!!!!

signed,

the Iron Chief...

 

[julius]

This is a good point, but i would continue to look for a job in my domain, if i couldnt then i would become desperate and work minimum wage of what is it, like 8$ an hour for 40 hours a week. Which for two people comes out to be like 2500$ and net prob around 2200$, so i would have to make due with that 2200$ a month.

Nothing else i could do

2200 a month for 2 people, + 3 kids?

good luck with that one.

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

some people aren't smart enough for college, some people can't afford to go to college.

while it's possible, it's a bit hard for a single mom (with say, 2 kids under 5) to go to college (or return to college).

Not everyone can afford to go to college, even WITH student loans/scholarships, etc.

What if you're personally responsible for everyone in your family, and don't have anyone else making money in your group? not impossible, but for some, it's not feasible.

Well, i dont believe a human is born "smart" i think it is learned. But again that is my opinion

On the point about the single mother, if she had unprotected sex at a young age and kids were the consequence, then thats her problem.

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

2200 a month for 2 people, + 3 kids?

good luck with that one.

Sell the house, get an apartment, its doable.

Obviously changes your life dramatically

 

[RR7]

Well, i dont believe a human is born "smart" i think it is learned. But again that is my opinion

On the point about the single mother, if she had unprotected sex at a young age and kids were the consequence, then thats her problem.

Unfortunately, it affects her kids as well. So fuck them too? Create a problem for them that will continue. So the kids should suffer if they get sick because of a mistake their mom made?

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

I went to school with a guy who will never be able to hold down a decent job. He had severe learning disabilities, and for him to get jobs that would be high paying (to pay for his health insurance) or provide health insurance, were slim.

Fuck him and his born disabilities! FUCK HIM! WE'RE NOT COMMIES!!!!!!!!!

AMERICAN #1! CAPITALISM #1! COMMUNISM!? AWK-TWA!!!!

signed,

the Iron Chief...

How did these people live before this bill will be introduced??? Did they all just die cause they didnt have health insurance? prob not...

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

Unfortunately, it affects her kids as well. So fuck them too? Create a problem for them that will continue. So the kids should suffer if they get sick because of a mistake their mom made?

Life is a shitty proposition sometime. You can make that correlation with almost anything in life.

A 10 year old girl that was sexually abused vs. a 10 year old girl that wasnt. i mean it sucks, but life isnt fair, and there really isnt a way to make it fair

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

Either way, good conversation guys, I like where you guys are coming from and i think its a good place. I do have sympathy for people and not a total asshole.

My main point is, I would not like more government in my life, and i dont wanna end up paying 50% taxes by the time im 40.

Anyways, gotta get back to work

 

[Minstrel]

Pure capitalism sounds good in theory. As does pure communism. It's when humans actually attempt to use them that both break down.

The US isn't a pure capitalist nation and essentially never has been. Definitely not for the past 100 years. The US, like all democracies, is on a spectrum with capitalism on one end and socialism on the other. None of the democracies are purely socialist or purely capitalist. So the argument really isn't capitalism versus socialism, but rather what precise mix of the two do you like best?

Universal health care (which hasn't been enacted) would be more socialism. But it wouldn't fundamentally change the character of the US from a capitalist nation to a socialist one. It would simply change the mixture that the US is using. I see nothing to suggest that the mix the US currently has is ideal or perfect, so I don't really see a compelling reason for alarm over changing it.

 

[blazerboy30]

Is it actually going to cost a person 4000 a year?

iirc, HCP said he pays 1000 a month. I'm sure he'd rather pay 4000 a year for insurance.

Three things:

1) It will actually cost more than that. The budget is front loaded, so we have 10 years of cuts and taxes collected for about 6 years of actual services. If I use the 6 years of services instead, the cost is more like ~$6,700/person/year

2) He said 1000 / month for his family, not per person. I believe he said there are three in his family, which means ~$4000/person/year.

3) I'm sure he would rather pay $4000/year than $12000/year if quality were the same. But your numbers are wrong. And I'd like it if people paid me millions for not working, but we don't always get what we would prefer, for free.

3a) Quality won't be the same before and after adding 30 million people to the demand
3b) The usual argument is that "having cancer should not cause financial ruin". That is called catastrophic insurance. Catastrophic insurance does not cost anywhere near $6700/person/year.

 

[clankfu]

Nothing was given to me. I worked my ass off in high school so i can get accepted in a decent university, once i got to that university, i did not get any scholarship and i paid my way through school with loans, once i graduated i got a decent paying job, and currently im paying off my loans and making money.

Thats how it works. If you work hard, you make it in this country. I didnt get any handouts and my parents werent blessed enough to pay my way through. I went to a public school and university, pretty sure everyone in this country has that ability...

 

[blazerboy30]

I didn't say anything was given to you.

Let's just not pretend capitalism is fair and just.

It's an exploitive system that NEEDS poor people to exist. You should just be grateful some are willing to do shitty jobs for 5 bucks an hour their whole life and realize how lucky you may have been to be born with the smarts, family, drive, dna etc to exploit the system like many of us have.

And all of those crappy jobs would still need somebody to do them in the absence of capitalism, no?

Yes, there are poor people, and always will be, in our "capitalistic" society, but it has also created the richest "poor" people in history.

 

[maxiep]

Your opposition of Medicare and the VA is noted.

Pretty much. I believe people are responsible for their own coverage. If it's more expensive as they get older, so be it. I happen to think the retirement age should be 70 or 72 years old.

Prudent financial planning is the key. Know what it's going to take for you to retire and build up to that point.

As for the VA, I'd love to see it closed. I think the VA is an insult to our veterans; they deserve better. I have no problem paying for those that have sacrificed and were wounded in their service to our country. They deserve the best health care we can offer, and that's not the VA.

Thanks for playing, though.

 

[OddEnormous]

Yes, there are poor people, and always will be, in our "capitalistic" society, but it has also created the richest "poor" people in history.

I don't even know how to respond to this.

Does "so what?" work?

 

[OddEnormous]

Anyways, gotta get back to work

One last shot at the poor people eh?

 

[maxiep]

I, for one, welcome our new socialist overlords.

I remember you posting that Obama would govern as a moderate where I thought he would govern as his political history showed, which is to the far left.

You lose. Unfortunately, because of these policies we all lose along with you.

 

[maxiep]

Just to clarify, we are the only industrialized country that does not have universal healthcare.

Which explains why we're the world's only superpower.

 

[maxiep]

so..what about the parents who worked for 30 years but lost everything, including their health insurance with the economic collapse of the last 3 years?

They worked their asses off too, and they were successful and created a great future for their kids and for their retirement. But were both laid off, and now work jobs that don't provide them with health care.

Fuck them too, huh?

Because that's obviously communism! Cept that it's not. But hey, if words can scare people, use em!

If someone were stupid enough to lose everything a lifetime of work had garnered them in the past three years, then they have no one to blame but themselves.

 

[maxiep]

Oh right, the good old "I work harder than the next guy!" thing.

I agree with you. Poor people never work hard. They deserve to be poor.

Capitalism has caused just as much if not more destruction. It depends on the exploitation of human beings. There is no such thing as rich people in a vacuum. You need poor people in capitalism or it doesn't work.

The poor of today would be considered the middle class of the 1940s. A rising economic tide lifts all boats.

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

One last shot at the poor people eh?

Na, just dont wanna get fired lol, i wish no one was poor, honestly, it sucks

 

[maxiep]

I didn't say anything was given to you.

Let's just not pretend capitalism is fair and just.

It's an exploitive system that NEEDS poor people to exist. You should just be grateful some are willing to do shitty jobs for 5 bucks an hour their whole life and realize how lucky you may have been to be born with the smarts, family, drive, dna etc to exploit the system like many of us have.

Capitalism by definition isn't a zero-sum game. Rich owners of businesses require workers with disposable income to purchase their goods. Capitalism seeks a growing pie, not a redistribution of one the same size year after year after year.