Fuck this healthcare Reform...

[Ed O]

Obama ran for President on the promise of healthcare reform and people voted him in. You have to give him credit for getting it done.

I thought he ran on the promise of ending the war in Iraq? Or in greater transparency for law-making? Or in creating jobs for the economy?

How are those things going?

Ed O.

 

[OddEnormous]

However, you're the one posting non-sequitor arguments, not me.

The problem here is that you think there's an "argument."

I have no argument with your claim that we have the richest poor people in the world. I don't know if that's true or false. I have my doubts (Scandinavia?) but that doesn't interest me.

Anyway, your "argument" had nothing to do with anything I had said. I assumed we had moved into the free for all faze of this thread so I gave my opinions on a few things.

 

[mook]

Nice attempt to cover up the fact that you browse 4chan.

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[mook]

Actually, my life is improved much more by the people who have good fortune, rather than bad.

Put me on a deserted island with a bunch of people who are drug addicts and/or have just been in a car accident and/or are in need of a heart transplant and I'm going to be worse off than if I were by myself.

On the other hand, put me with people that have managed to educate themselves and had generally had "good luck", and I'll be better off.

Which group of island people are the ones who make your mocha, sell you your candy bar at the gas station, change your car's oil, drive the garbage truck that picks up your trash, and clean the sewer you shit in? Are those "good fortune people" or "bad fortune people"?

Because to me they're just all part of society, and society doesn't work without them. So I like the idea of making sure they all have access to health care, even if it requires government action because some of them are too unlucky or stupid or lazy to do it for themselves.

 

[OddEnormous]

It's a false premise. The more capitalist a society, the wealthier it is. The wealthier a society as a whole, the better the poorest among it live.

You're welcome.

http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/general/who-has-the-richest-poor-people-in-the-world.html

Their analysis shows the percentage of national income that the poorest 20% of the population have and proves what many believe, that USA maybe the best developed country in which to be rich but it is also one of the worst in which to be poor. In general Europe and Japan have the richest poor people in the world.

 

[OddEnormous]

The more capitalist a society, the wealthier it is.

Ten Richest Countries (based on 2004 GNP per capital in US$)

1. Luxembourg ... $56,380
2. Norway ... $51,810
3. Switzerland ... $49,600
4. United States ... $41,440
5. Denmark ... $40,750
6. Iceland ... $37,920
7. Japan ... $37,050
8. Sweden ... $35,840
9. Ireland ... $34,310
10. United Kingdom ... $33,630


I believe there is only one country in that list that does not provide health care to it's people.

The rest are horrible socialist dictatorships that live to destroy the human spirit which naturally craves Cadillacs, cocaine, golf trips and lattes. BURN SOCIALISTS!!!!! BURN!!!!!!!

 

[Shooter]

Here's the beauty of the new government healthcare plan . . . Are you ready??

Not a single member of Congress will be affected by it. They're all covered by their own cushy healthcare plan, which operates completely separately from ours. None of the laws and restrictions they passed Sunday night will apply to them or their families.

Is this what we mean by "representative government??"

This healthcare plan is a joke, and the fact that Congress wants no part of it should tell you a lot. If the program is so darn great, why aren't they participating in it?

 

[Minstrel]

Actually, my life is improved much more by the people who have good fortune, rather than bad.

Your life is improved by having a society around you, some of whom are in good situations and some of whom are in bad situations. And, while it's not a zero-sum game, there must be some form of underclass for there to be wealthier groups of people.

I think however you slice it, you're drawing benefits from living in a society, one that has people comparable to you, doing better than you and doing worse than you. And it's perfectly reasonable that you pay money for those benefits.

How much you (or I) should pay for that, we can and do haggle over.

 

[RR7]

Here's the beauty of the new government healthcare plan . . . Are you ready??

Not a single member of Congress will be affected by it. They're all covered by their own cushy healthcare plan, which operates completely separately from ours. None of the laws and restrictions they passed Sunday night will apply to them or their families.

Is this what we mean by "representative government??"

This healthcare plan is a joke, and the fact that Congress wants no part of it should tell you a lot. If the program is so darn great, why aren't they participating in it?

They pass many things that don't necessarily apply to them. Does that mean all of those programs are awful? No, it isn't as good as their coverage. Doint that would probably cost a lot mroe money, and create mroe bitching. But it provides SOMEHTING. Many of those congressmen would not leave their cushy jobs to join the military. Should we criticize them every time they approve military spending, or approve presidential action into a conflict?

Look, I understand many people don't like it, and if not, that's fine. But this is just a pathetic argument against it.

 

[mook]

Congress actually gets *gasp* single payer government-run health insurance. So the system they get is much more socialized than the one they just passed.

For once, I agree with Shooter. I think they should have to deal with the same health insurance package they just passed that most of us will have to. Maybe the contrast will open their eyes up to the idea of the public option.

 

[RR7]

Congress actually gets *gasp* single payer government-run health insurance. So the system they get is much more socialized than the one they just passed.

For once, I agree with Shooter. I think they should have to deal with the same health insurance package they just passed that most of us will have to. Maybe the contrast will open their eyes up to the idea of the public option.

But again, should they be subjected to every single thing they pass, to open their eyes? Should we send them to Iraq before they agree to send money there? Should we make them spend time in Haiti before agreeing to give aid there? Or in African nations? Should they all be forced to send their kids to public grade schools and high schools because that is the public option?

 

[Minstrel]

But again, should they be subjected to every single thing they pass, to open their eyes? Should we send them to Iraq before they agree to send money there? Should we make them spend time in Haiti before agreeing to give aid there? Or in African nations? Should they all be forced to send their kids to public grade schools and high schools because that is the public option?

I think it's a bit disingenuous for them to argue that the public option or single payer is non-beneficial for people when they use it themselves. So, in that regard, I think mook's point is valid. Not that they have to be subjected to everything they make laws about.

 

[barfo]

I think it's a bit disingenuous for them to argue that the public option or single payer is non-beneficial for people when they use it themselves. So, in that regard, I think mook's point is valid. Not that they have to be subjected to everything they make laws about.

Well, at least the congresspeople who claim this current bill is socialism should have to give up their single-payer care. I mean, ick, socialism. Wouldn't want that.

barfo

 

[maxiep]

http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/general/who-has-the-richest-poor-people-in-the-world.html

Let's go back and find where I said the US had the wealthiest poor. I'm pretty sure I said capitalist societies had the wealthiest poor. The UK and Japan are capitalist societies. As for Scandinavia, there really are no poor, just a massive, segmented middle class a very few wealthy.

I'm glad we agree.

 

[maxiep]

Ten Richest Countries (based on 2004 GNP per capital in US$)

1. Luxembourg ... $56,380
2. Norway ... $51,810
3. Switzerland ... $49,600
4. United States ... $41,440
5. Denmark ... $40,750
6. Iceland ... $37,920
7. Japan ... $37,050
8. Sweden ... $35,840
9. Ireland ... $34,310
10. United Kingdom ... $33,630


I believe there is only one country in that list that does not provide health care to it's people.

The rest are horrible socialist dictatorships that live to destroy the human spirit which naturally craves Cadillacs, cocaine, golf trips and lattes. BURN SOCIALISTS!!!!! BURN!!!!!!!

Interesting. Since I've lived in four countries on that list, allow me to tell you what the wealthy do for health care: They purchase insurance that allows them to be treated in the United States if they ever require serious treatment.

 

[maxiep]

Here's the beauty of the new government healthcare plan . . . Are you ready??

Not a single member of Congress will be affected by it. They're all covered by their own cushy healthcare plan, which operates completely separately from ours. None of the laws and restrictions they passed Sunday night will apply to them or their families.

Is this what we mean by "representative government??"

This healthcare plan is a joke, and the fact that Congress wants no part of it should tell you a lot. If the program is so darn great, why aren't they participating in it?

In a town hall meeting disguised as a "7th Avenue Historic District Meeting", I asked Sen. Bennet to pledge to put his family in the public option if he supported one. He tried to deflect the question by replying that was his wife's decision. I responded that perhaps his wife should cast the vote since he didn't think it was in his purview.

Oh, and why was his town hall meeting so disguised? Because our appointed senator didn't want to have to answer questions from the hoi polloi.

 

[mook]

Interesting. Since I've lived in four countries on that list, allow me to tell you what the wealthy do for health care: They purchase insurance that allows them to be treated in the United States if they ever require serious treatment.

Wikipedia seems to think there are far more medical tourists leaving our country for health care than those coming in:

Although much attention has been given to the growing trend of uninsured Americans traveling to foreign countries, a McKinsey and Co. report from 2008 found that a plurality of an estimated 60,000 to 85,000 medical tourists were traveling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care;[62] the same McKinsey study estimated that 750,000 American medical tourists traveled from the United States to other countries in 2007 (up from 500,000 in 2006).[63]

So yes, the wealthiest people from other countries come here to access health care available to the wealthiest of people here.

Simultaneously, around ten times as many Americans leave America to get it cheaper outside the US.

 

[mook]

In a town hall meeting disguised as a "7th Avenue Historic District Meeting", I asked Sen. Bennet to pledge to put his family in the public option if he supported one. He tried to deflect the question by replying that was his wife's decision. I responded that perhaps his wife should cast the vote since he didn't think it was in his purview.

He should've replied, "I'm already getting government-run insurance."

 

[OddEnormous]

Interesting. Since I've lived in four countries on that list, allow me to tell you what the wealthy do for health care: They purchase insurance that allows them to be treated in the United States if they ever require serious treatment.

Anecdotal evidence is awesome.

I'd love to see the percentage of people from those countries who purchase American health care.

Once again, you've shifted the conversation.

Can't wait to see where you take this next.

 

[maxiep]

Wikipedia seems to think there are far more medical tourists leaving our country for health care than those coming in:



So yes, the wealthiest people from other countries come here to access health care available to the wealthiest of people here.

Simultaneously, around ten times as many Americans leave America to get it cheaper outside the US.

That says to me we have the best healthcare in the world, but it's expensive.

 

[maxiep]

Anecdotal evidence is awesome.

I'd love to see the percentage of people from those coutries who purchase American health care.

Call insurance companies in those markets and ask them where the wealthy request to be treated.

 

[Ed O]

Interesting. Since I've lived in four countries on that list, allow me to tell you what the wealthy do for health care: They purchase insurance that allows them to be treated in the United States if they ever require serious treatment.

That's a big deal here that's lost: innovation will go down as the US moves towards socialized medicine. Right now the rich come to the US because the US invests most heavily in medicines, treatments, and equipment.

Without the profit motive, innovation will (IMO) crawl and the progress that has, essentially, been paid for on the backs of Americans will slow down.

Bummer.

Ed O.

 

[maxiep]

He should've replied, "I'm already getting government-run insurance."

He's not receving government-run insurance; he's receiving taxpayer paid insurance. Big difference.

 

[maxiep]

That's a big deal here that's lost: innovation will go down as the US moves towards socialized medicine. Right now the rich come to the US because the US invests most heavily in medicines, treatments, and equipment.

Without the profit motive, innovation will (IMO) crawl and the progress that has, essentially, been paid for on the backs of Americans will slow down.

Bummer.

Ed O.

Exactly right. We talk about how we have to invest public monies in green technology to lead the green job future. However, the market for medical technology for people that live longer lives will be larger than that market. Yet we blow off private investment in that area. Hmm, it's almost like there's a political component to what should be an apolitical area...interesting.

 

[boatsandstars]

Loving all of the "arguments" from the right. Keep it coming. It's hysterical.

 

[Denny Crane]

Responding to a few posts, in no particular order.

The Internet was a DARPA project, indeed. It consisted of email and usenet news and ftp/gopher and not much else. Only after it was commercialized did things like the WWW browser (Netscape, Inc.), streaming audio (RealAudio Inc.), streaming video (Broadcast.com), etc., come into being. Nor was the Internet very popular, just a bunch of nerdgeeks (like me). There were regulations against the Internet being commercial for too long, or we'd be that much further advanced than now.

I'd also point out that then VP Al Gore, inventor of the Internet, was running around in those days talking about an "information superhighway" that had nothing to do with the Internet (technologies). Go figure.

Our poorest of the poor live under overpasses and eat from dumpsters. Obama's making a lot more of them than any of us would like (or some are willing to admit). The distribution of wealth is something like a bell curve - a very few have more than most dream of and a very few have less than most consider humane. It doesn't cost $1T to help the very few who need it.

The outsourcing of health care is a relatively new thing. Lots of people in the USA do go overseas to have elective procedures done, and they're even covered by their insurance and encouraged to go by the insurance companies. It is a hellofalot cheaper to have surgery in India, of course. But you get what you pay for. I personally wouldn't want surgery in a developing country, would you? The flip side is that Indian doctors are getting a lot of practice and they'll only get better with that practice.

So it's quite disingenuous to make a big deal about Americans going overseas - the people with money from overseas absolutely come here, and the people with money here stay here.

However, there's a lesson to be learned in all that. Those who are responsible for paying their own medical bills shop and pay less and reduce the overall cost of care in the process. When you're out to dinner and mook is paying the check, you order the filet mignon, but when you have to pay for yourself you order the grilled cheese sandwich.

 

[OddEnormous]

Call insurance companies in those markets and ask them where the wealthy request to be treated.

The place with the best doctors I'd assume. The United States.

Good news. None of us will have to travel.

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

Those who are responsible for paying their own medical bills shop and pay less and reduce the overall cost of care in the process. When you're out to dinner and mook is paying the check, you order the filet mignon, but when you have to pay for yourself you order the grilled cheese sandwich.

Bingo

Repped

 

[Denny Crane]

I hope mook got a chuckle from my analogy.

 

[OddEnormous]

That's a big deal here that's lost: innovation will go down as the US moves towards socialized medicine. Right now the rich come to the US because the US invests most heavily in medicines, treatments, and equipment.

Without the profit motive, innovation will (IMO) crawl and the progress that has, essentially, been paid for on the backs of Americans will slow down.

Bummer.

Ed O.

I have no idea how you have come to that conclusion.

Are you under the assumption that doctors will stop caring about money? Are you under the impression that American doctors are the only ones who innovate? Fame, ego and money will not being going anywhere in the medical industry.

Secondly, lets say I agree with you. What difference would it make to me if doctors are innovative if I can't be treated by the innovations because I can't afford it?