Game Thread GAME# 2: SPURS @ BLAZERS - OCTOBER 20, 2018 - SATURDAY, 7:00 PM (PDT), NBCSNW

[Boob-No-More]

This team lost its spirit when it threw Ed Davis into the garbage. Boob and Bones should be ashamed for what they are doing to his reputation.

I've said repeatedly I love ED and wish him well. Reputation intact.

You, on the other hand...

BNM

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Tony Allen was a career 28.2% 3 point shooter and was also a wing not a big man. Marc Gasol won a DPOY and shot just 18% on 3 pointers his first 8 seasons (granted he didn't shoot much 12/66). He was also 24 years old when he came to the NBA with a filled out body. The fact that Collins shot 31% as a 19 year old rookie is a positive sign to me if he puts in the work to improve. I think the point I'm trying to make is that I think Collins is starting with a higher floor offensively than most defensive specialists. I'm not sure what his ceiling could be if he puts it all together but he's not some stiff who can only score on dunks.

The point wasnt neccessarily that Allen and Collins are similar players. It was that where Zach gets to offensively will dictate his ceiling and also who he can play with.
I dont know what else to say other than I guess we’ll see where he gets too. You may be fully in on Zach and thats fine, Im taking a much more slow approach to it.

 

[Strenuus]

The point wasnt neccessarily that Allen and Collins are similar players. It was that where Zach gets to offensively will dictate his ceiling and also who he can play with.
I dont know what else to say other than I guess we’ll see where he gets too. You may be fully in on Zach and thats fine, Im taking a much more slow approach to it.

You get used to people not liking that you take the slow approach. I get yelled at every year in the beginning of the year because I always say "I'll wait 20 games." I like to see trends, not spurts.

 

[hoopsjock]

The point wasnt neccessarily that Allen and Collins are similar players. It was that where Zach gets to offensively will dictate his ceiling and also who he can play with.
I dont know what else to say other than I guess we’ll see where he gets too. You may be fully in on Zach and thats fine, Im taking a much more slow approach to it.

Are you really taking a slow approach though? Wouldn't those saying he's only 19 (last year) and 20 (this year) be the ones using a slow approach? I know it's just my opinion but it seems to me like the ones expecting more from him so far are the impatient ones that expect results right away.

 

[Strenuus]

Are you really taking a slow approach though? Wouldn't those saying he's only 19 (last year) and 20 (this year) be the ones using a slow approach? I know it's just my opinion but it seems to me like the ones expecting more from him so far are the impatient ones that expect results right away.

I think, actually, looking at it from this angle, both people are taking the slow approach?

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Are you really taking a slow approach though? Wouldn't those saying he's only 19 (last year) and 20 (this year) be the ones using a slow approach? I know it's just my opinion but it seems to me like the ones expecting more from him so far are the impatient ones that expect results right away.

I feel like I am, I havent said he sucks or he’s great or whatever. Just said I wanted to see what he continues to do.

 

[hoopsjock]

I think, actually, looking at it from this angle, both people are taking the slow approach?

No way! You have to have an EXTREME HOT TAKE either good or bad. What is this middle ground you seem to be alluding to?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

No way! You have to have an EXTREME HOT TAKE either good or bad. What is this middle ground you seem to be alluding to?

Hey, some people really like riding fences.

 

[Boob-No-More]

My point to begin with in this conversation was that it's way to early to start proclaiming that Zach is ready, or isn't ready. It's 2 games.

I never proclaimed Zach was ready. He can't even legally buy a beer yet. He's got a long way to go to reach his potential, but he has time to get there. The quickest way for a young player, especially a young 7-footer, to improve is to get a lot of meaningful playing time at the NBA level. His development is vital for the future of this team. Ed's wasn't. If Zach's ceiling is Ed Davis, we're fucked, but if that's all he'll ever be, better to find out sooner, rather than later (before giving him a huge contract extension).

And, it's not just based on 2 games. Yes, Zach struggled last season on the offensive end of the floor. That's not to be unexpected for a 19 - 20 year old rookie who didn't start a single game in his one, and only, college season. He may not have been a starter in college, but by the end of the season he was playing well enough to earn 1st Team All Tournament in the NCAA tourney. He also shot .476 3FG% in college, but the number of attempts was very small and the 3-point line closer. It takes young players, especially young bigs who are still growing into their bodies, to adjust to the speed and athleticism of the NBA game, as well as the longer 3-point distance.

Zach has the tools and seems to also have the work ethic. What he lacks is experience at the NBA level and he can only gain that by playing - the more the better. Yes, Ed is better at what he does best (rebounding), but we were't going to seriously challenge GSW for title this year. We saw last year that Ed can actually be a liability in the playoffs. Zach will have some ups and downs this season, and Ed may have helped steady the ship, maybe even helped us win an extra game, or two, during the regular season, but long term, the development of Zach Collins is more important than a couple extra season wins this year.

BNM

 

[hoopsjock]

I feel like I am, I havent said he sucks or he’s great or whatever. Just said I wanted to see what he continues to do.

On this current Blazers team would you rather have Collins or Kuzma?

Edit: I realize the irony of this question considering we could have had both.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

On this current Blazers team would you rather have Collins or Kuzma?

Edit: I realize the irony of this question considering we could have had both.

I dont have strong feelings towards either one... Id probably take Collins because Colllins is more of a position of need for ‘us’ than Kuzma is.


My choices last year wouldve been Mitchell or Giles and Jordan Bell. Honestly though Collins has more offensive potential than Ball does. Defensively is taller with more reach, Bells in one heck of an amazing situation though.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

I never proclaimed Zach was ready. He can't even legally buy a beer yet. He's got a long way to go to reach his potential, but he has time to get there. The quickest way for a young player, especially a young 7-footer, to improve is to get a lot of meaningful playing time at the NBA level. His development is vital for the future of this team. Ed's wasn't. If Zach's ceiling is Ed Davis, we're fucked, but if that's all he'll ever be, better to find out sooner, rather than later (before giving him a huge contract extension).

And, it's not just based on 2 games. Yes, Zach struggled last season on the offensive end of the floor. That's not to be unexpected for a 19 - 20 year old rookie who didn't start a single game in his one, and only, college season. He may not have been a starter in college, but by the end of the season he was playing well enough to earn 1st Team All Tournament in the NCAA tourney. He also shot .476 3FG% in college, but the number of attempts was very small and the 3-point line closer. It takes young players, especially young bigs who are still growing into their bodies, to adjust to the speed and athleticism of the NBA game, as well as the longer 3-point distance.

Zach has the tools and seems to also have the work ethic. What he lacks is experience at the NBA level and he can only gain that by playing - the more the better. Yes, Ed is better at what he does best (rebounding), but we were't going to seriously challenge GSW for title this year. We saw last year that Ed can actually be a liability in the playoffs. Zach will have some ups and downs this season, and Ed may have helped steady the ship, maybe even helped us win an extra game, or two, during the regular season, but long term, the development of Zach Collins is more important than a couple extra season wins this year.

BNM

I tried to steer this away from the Ed vs Collins stuff as that wasnt really the discussion I was trying to have... Its about Zach to me, I get the he’s young arguement, but every single rookie and second year player is young. Yes Zach has potential and playing and developing him is important. I read several posts saying he’s ready, he needs to play, and the like and my approach is that after two games its a little quick to call that..

 

[BBert]

On this current Blazers team would you rather have Collins or Kuzma?

Edit: I realize the irony of this question considering we could have had both.

Kuzma is athletic for sure, but I prefer Zach's defense and attitude. I suspect Zach's fundamentals and potential are also greater. I'll go with Zach.

And as you alluded, that wasn't the choice. At the time it was a choice between Biggie and Kuzma. That's a no-brainer now, and it probably should have been then.

 

[hoopsjock]

I dont have strong feelings towards either one... Id probably take Collins because Colllins is more of a position of need for ‘us’ than Kuzma is.


My choices last year wouldve been Mitchell or Giles and Jordan Bell. Honestly though Collins has more offensive potential than Ball does. Defensively is taller with more reach, Bells in one heck of an amazing situation though.

Mitchell isn't worth commenting about because I think you already know that I wanted him too.

Giles has an even smaller sample size than Collins (how is that even possible?). I'll give you that he probably has a higher ceiling than Zach (maybe not defensively but for sure offensively) but is much less likely to reach that potential because of injuries in my opinion.

Bell is almost 3 years older than Zach, which is pretty crazy to think about. I'm assuming you watched Bell in college and I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't have thought he'd be an NBA player when he was 20. I agree with you that Collins has more (a lot more) offensive potential.

 

[SIeepwalker]

He can't even legally buy a beer yet

He can if he comes to France !

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Mitchell isn't worth commenting about because I think you already know that I wanted him too.

Giles has an even smaller sample size than Collins (how is that even possible?). I'll give you that he probably has a higher ceiling than Zach (maybe not defensively but for sure offensively) but is much less likely to reach that potential because of injuries in my opinion.

Bell is almost 3 years older than Zach, which is pretty crazy to think about. I'm assuming you watched Bell in college and I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't have thought he'd be an NBA player when he was 20. I agree with you that Collins has more (a lot more) offensive potential.

Yeah, I know you were on the mitchell train last year more than just about anyone. I was just commenting that had I done the draft and not NO I wouldve picked Mitchell or Giles at 10 and Bell at 26. Now (a little over a year later) I think Collins will have a really good shot to be better than Bell and Giles. I think Collins’ chance of ever being as good as Mitchell isnt very high...

Now that doesnt mean Collins cant carve himself out a very good nba career, and I think playing him and seeing what he has fine. If he grows into his potential he could be very valuable for the Blazers.

Side note: The starters were saying they think Collins will be better than Nurkic, Im not sure I agree, but I think his potential is higher than Nurks.

 

[hoopsjock]

Yeah, I know you were on the mitchell train last year more than just about anyone. I was just commenting that had I done the draft and not NO I wouldve picked Mitchell or Giles at 10 and Bell at 26. Now (a little over a year later) I think Collins will have a really good shot to be better than Bell and Giles. I think Collins’ chance of ever being as good as Mitchell isnt very high...

Now that doesnt mean Collins cant carve himself out a very good nba career, and I think playing him and seeing what he has fine. If he grows into his potential he could be very valuable for the Blazers.

Side note: The starters were saying they think Collins will be better than Nurkic, Im not sure I agree, but I think his potential is higher than Nurks.

I still like Collins at the 4. Fuck going small like everyone else is doing, lets mix a new school perimeter game with an old school big front line. It's really pissing me off that some national media seems to think we are going to have to choose one or the other to be our starting center. I firmly believe they can play together and will eventually be a dominant force.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

I still like Collins at the 4. Fuck going small like everyone else is doing, lets mix a new school perimeter game with an old school big front line. It's really pissing me off that some national media seems to think we are going to have to choose one or the other to be our starting center. I firmly believe they can play together and will eventually be a dominant force.

I know he’s a 7 footer but his game reminds me way more of what I think of as a 4, than as a center. Could just be he needs to fill out?

 

[H.C.]

I still like Collins at the 4. Fuck going small like everyone else is doing, lets mix a new school perimeter game with an old school big front line. It's really pissing me off that some national media seems to think we are going to have to choose one or the other to be our starting center. I firmly believe they can play together and will eventually be a dominant force.

I don't see Aminu being brought back next year.
I see Portland looking to find a backup C which will allow Collins to slot in at the 4.
Well unless Nards truly does break out.

Pending injury, I don't ever see Collins starting this year. Clearly he's the best backup 5 Portland has on the roster.
Nards has shown some things though.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

I don't see Aminu being brought back next year.
I see Portland looking to find a backup C which will allow Collins to slot in at the 4.
Well unless Nards truly does break out.

Pending injury, I don't ever see Collins starting this year. Clearly he's the best backup 5 Portland has on the roster.
Nards has shown some things though.

I think they may try to trade Aminu for a back up center / 4 around the trade deadline if Zach keeps up his level of play.

 

[James lamphear]

Let be clear about last year Zach is top 5 player on defense in last year draft. A lot of love for Mitchell but if we had draft him last year he would been behind Dame and CJ so he wouldn't had the season like he did. My 26 pick would have been Hart. Kuzma really know one had even heard of him until he broke out in summer league.

 

[H.C.]

Let be clear about last year Zach is top 5 player on defense in last year draft. A lot of love for Mitchell but if we had draft him last year he would been behind Dame and CJ so he wouldn't had the season like he did. My 26 pick would have been Hart. Kuzma really know one had even heard of him until he broke out in summer league.

I believe @BonesJones was advocating for drafting Kuzma before the draft.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I read several posts saying he’s ready, he needs to play, and the like and my approach is that after two games its a little quick to call that..

My point is he's not ready and that's exactly why he needs to play. The thing he lacks most is experience and there's only one way to get that. There's no reason to start him now. Nurk and Aminu are fine as starters. Let Zach continue to back up both the 4 and 5 spots. He'll get more playing time that way and be exposed to more situations. It will accelerate his growth.

Aminu's contract is up at the end of the season. At that time, Neil and company will have a decision to make: resign Chief, move Zach into the starting PF spot next to Nurk, or look for another veteran big he can sign on a reasonable contract. The good news is we have 80 more regular season games, plus the playoffs to see where Zach is at on his development curve. Plus, I like that we've already seen a little of Zach and Nurk together, something we really didn't see last year. I'd like to see more of that between now and the end of the season. Zach may eventually be a modern 5, but right now, I think 4 is his best position, and with Nurk locked up on a reasonable contract, I think Collins will be starting at PF before he's starting at C.

BNM

 

[James lamphear]

I believe @BonesJones was advocating for drafting Kuzma before the draft.

That one person that did some good home work on him.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I never proclaimed Zach was ready.

Ok, let's make it official. I officially proclaim Zach Collins ready!

BNM