Game Thread GAME# 38: BLAZERS @ RAPTORS - JANUARY 7, 2020 - TUESDAY, 4:00 PM, NBCSNW

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Should POR trade Whiteside and Bazemore this season?

  • Total voters
    60
  • Poll closed .
Wade Garrett said:
He doesn't make "winning plays"..he puts up tremendous stats, but it's Kevin Love in Minnesota...somebody has to get the rebounds and blocks cos they literally have nobody else who can.
For instance, tonight as the shot clock is winding down Whiteside has it in the post and as Stotts counts down to "One" he passes out to Simons for a too late three.
That's not "winning basketball"..
He puts up outstanding numbers, but that doesn't always tell the whole story.
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I'm sorry, but I don't think you're telling the "whole story" either

for one thing, the example you gave, it's not like he got the pass with the shot clock at 13 and pissed away a bunch of seconds. He got the ball with about 4 seconds left of the clock, with his back to the basket outside the paint. He was stationary when he caught it and he got pressured by 2 defenders. We know he doen't move quickly with the ball or make fast decisions. His teammates know that too, so in my view the blame for that goes to the player who tossed him the ball because that player had a much better view of the shot clock than Whiteside. There's a good reason why a shot clock violation is a team turnover. It also happens multiple times a game

another thing, what is a "winning play"?? A rebound can be a winning play and Whiteside had 16 of them. A blocked shot can be a winning play and Whiteside had 7 of them. In fact, Whiteside had 2 blocks in the final 1:19 when Portland went from 4 down to 2 up at the horn. Those were definitely winning plays. Whiteside is a scapegoat this year because he's not as good as the legend of Nurkic. Nurkic isn't as good as his legend either
 
Props to CJ on the last play for getting the ball in a tough corner spot and to not turn it over or drive baseline (which Toronto was trying to bait him into doing right into Ibaka). Then to pass the ball up when he didn't have a look was nice to see.

It didn't work out for Toronto but the play was for Dame to just get the ball and go ISO. Toronto took him completely out of the play and made someone else beat them. This is an example of a good time to have 3 players who can create something out of nothing since there was no secondary option other than Dame to do something.
 
H.C. said:
Geko's ball movement is amazing to watch.
After the masterful show of ball movement they put on in the first half with 10 assists. They beat that mark in the second with 11.
21 assists. Such wow. Such amazing.

Portland meanwhile had only 23 assists.
I wish it was as fun to watch Portland beat the Geko's as it was to watch Toronto move the ball.
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What are you talking about...?

Portland moves the ball better than normal, Toronto is more stagnant than normal, and look at the outcome.
 
HailBlazers said:
He'll make a great backup for Nurk.
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Yeah man, that would be dope. Imagine players that just want to win this Rings instead of money. Whiteside stays here with team friendly contract to be backup nightmare for other teams. This is even pure logic as well. Just stay together for some time with players fairly share money (bc it's millions of dollars anyway) and just take one Ring after another laughing in LeBron's face.

Well, since Lillard took half of the cup, I don't belive this Winning Rings fairytells anymore. It would be nice tho.

edit. And BTW I can see that team happen in future NBA since "future is European" and Euro players got diffrent view on gazilions of dollars.
 
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hoopsjock said:
Props to CJ on the last play for getting the ball in a tough corner spot and to not turn it over or drive baseline (which Toronto was trying to bait him into doing right into Ibaka). Then to pass the ball up when he didn't have a look was nice to see.

It didn't work out for Toronto but the play was for Dame to just get the ball and go ISO. Toronto took him completely out of the play and made someone else beat them. This is an example of a good time to have 3 players who can create something out of nothing since there was no secondary option other than Dame to do something.
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Pretty much exactly what i was thinking. Three players on the court other than Dame and make the other team defend them all. I would have been good with that pass going to 1M also. I also liked the shot going up with enough time to give Whiteside a chance at a rebound if it would have missed.
 
Two questions from that last play, trying not to use hindsight:

1) Should plays have a secondary option if the first option is taken away?

It seemed like Melo didn't know who to inbound to when Dame was doubled. Hopefully this is a learning experience.

2) Why take a timeout to run the "Dame do something" play?

It would be easier to just let him get the ball off the rebound.
 
Tince said:
It certainly is a lot more quiet around here after a win. You'd hope the opposite would be true, but this seems to be a trend.
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Perhaps because the Raptors were missing 6 of their top 8 players from last years team and we were down double digits to that 2nd and 3rd string squad for much of the game. Nice to get a win but if that is how depleted a team has to be for us to squeeze out a win at the buzzer, it's not very encouraging.
 
TBpup said:
Perhaps because the Raptors were missing 6 of their top 8 players from last years team and we were down double digits to that 2nd and 3rd string squad for much of the game. Nice to get a win but if that is how depleted a team has to be for us to squeeze out a win at the buzzer, it's not very encouraging.
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Exactly... Blazers are were down almost the entire game by double digits to a team missing 6 of their 8 best players. Not a win to feel good about for a team that was talking championship before the season started. This is a lost season and if you think big picture, that win actually hurts the team. If Blazers plan on having good assets, like a high lottery pick, to be able to make a trade to help Dame in the short window he has left, I don’t see how any true fan could be happy with this win. There simply is no other way to gain assets to improve the team.
 
We still haven't fix the defense and last night first 3 quarters it was the same for this team. Them 3 quarter no rotation and when we did rotate we did wrong while we end up with the raptors with wide open shots. Majority of the time we score enough points to win even with terrible offense scheme. Yes I am glade some ball movement last but history will show with this team the next game we could fall back in our old ways. But the defense must be fixed and not we will have more losing streak then winning streaks. But every win is good so last night was a good win.
 
Melo is having his most efficient shooting season since ‘16-17, when he was an all star. Really feels like he wasted two years in OKC and Houston. I doubt he’s gonna cost much this summer, so hopefully we re-sign him. I see a place for him in Portland, even with Collins back.
 
Scalma said:
Melo is having his most efficient shooting season since ‘16-17, when he was an all star. Really feels like he wasted two years in OKC and Houston. I doubt he’s gonna cost much this summer, so hopefully we re-sign him. I see a place for him in Portland, even with Collins back.
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Only if he accepts a 15-20 minute role off the bench.
 
tester551 said:
Only if he accepts a 15-20 minute role off the bench.
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and I'd think Portland would have to sign him with cap-space or give him all or a good part of either the room-MLE or tax-MLE depending on what they do before the deadline
 
UKRAINEFAN said:
According to this article, offensive rating, defensive rating, rebound differential and 3 point percentage are the most important. Although they didn't correlate directly to wins but rather to how often top teams in those categories got into the playoffs. Assist/turnover ration was in the bottom half. Pace was last...... https://watchstadium.com/which-nba-statistics-actually-translate-to-wins-07-13-2019/
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This guy thinks these are the most important, both on offense and defense, again nothing about assists:
 
UKRAINEFAN said:
According to this article, offensive rating, defensive rating, rebound differential and 3 point percentage are the most important. Although they didn't correlate directly to wins but rather to how often top teams in those categories got into the playoffs. Assist/turnover ration was in the bottom half. Pace was last...... https://watchstadium.com/which-nba-statistics-actually-translate-to-wins-07-13-2019/
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I'd think rather that looking at offensive and defensive rating separately, it's most important to look at differential. There was an article I read ayear or so ago that said rating differential was the most 'predictive' model, even moreso than average MOV

I'll test it for Portland as I post the numbers:

2015-16 +0.8 > 44 wins (.536)
2016-17 -0.5 > 41 wins (.500)
2017-18 +2.7 > 49 wins (.597)
2018-19 +4.2 > 53 wins (.646)
2019-20 -1.6 > 16 wins (.421)

(this sure seems to correlate well with winning percentage)


and look at the top 10 in the league right now:

Milwaukee Bucks +11.3
Los Angeles Lakers +7.9
Dallas Mavericks +7.4
Boston Celtics +7.3
Los Angeles Clippers +5.9
Toronto Raptors +5.3
Houston Rockets +5.3
Denver Nuggets +4.0
Philadelphia 76ers +3.9
Miami Heat +3.8

not only does that correlate, it seems to be a mirror of the standings and win-loss records

I guess the question is, is this really predictive or is it putting the cart in front of the horse. In other words, is it a case that a good team needs to have a good differential, or rather just that a good team will naturally create one? Maybe that's splitting hairs. I'd also think the differential is important in 3 point percentage to. It doesn't do much good to shoot 38% on three's if you give up 38.5%

UKRAINEFAN said:
This guy thinks these are the most important, both on offense and defense, again nothing about assists:
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ok....this may be me reading that article wrong but I'm not seeing that he says those are the most important factors of all the dozens of stats. What I'm reading is that he arbitrarily picked those 4 stats and calculated the importance of each stat compared to the other 3. Am I interpreting that worng?
 
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TBpup said:
Perhaps because the Raptors were missing 6 of their top 8 players from last years team and we were down double digits to that 2nd and 3rd string squad for much of the game. Nice to get a win but if that is how depleted a team has to be for us to squeeze out a win at the buzzer, it's not very encouraging.
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No such thing as a bad win - but this was more "sigh of relief" than "inspire confidence."
 
UKRAINEFAN said:
According to this article, offensive rating, defensive rating, rebound differential and 3 point percentage are the most important. Although they didn't correlate directly to wins but rather to how often top teams in those categories got into the playoffs. Assist/turnover ration was in the bottom half. Pace was last...... https://watchstadium.com/which-nba-statistics-actually-translate-to-wins-07-13-2019/
Click to expand...

Yes, yes, and yes! I'd prefer win correlation because it allows for a much greater sample size, but I totally get why someone would want to look at top teams or champions only. Appreciate the link, the more information the better!
 
wizenheimer said:
I'd think rather that looking at offensive and defensive rating separately, it's most important to look at differential. There was an article I read ayear or so ago that said rating differential was the most 'predictive' model, even moreso than average MOV

I'll test it for Portland as I post the numbers:

2015-16 +0.8 > 44 wins (.536)
2016-17 -0.5 > 41 wins (.500)
2017-18 +2.7 > 49 wins (.597)
2018-19 +4.2 > 53 wins (.646)
2019-20 -1.6 > 16 wins (.421)

(this sure seems to correlate well with winning percentage)


and look at the top 10 in the league right now:

Milwaukee Bucks +11.3
Los Angeles Lakers +7.9
Dallas Mavericks +7.4
Boston Celtics +7.3
Los Angeles Clippers +5.9
Toronto Raptors +5.3
Houston Rockets +5.3
Denver Nuggets +4.0
Philadelphia 76ers +3.9
Miami Heat +3.8

not only does that correlate, it seems to be a mirror of the standings and win-loss records

I guess the question is, is this really predictive or is it putting the cart in front of the horse. In other words, is it a case that a good team needs to have for a good differential, or rather just that a good team will naturally create one? Maybe that's splitting hairs. I'd also think the differential is important in 3 point percentage to. It doesn't do much good to shoot 38% on three's if you give up 38.5%



ok....this may be me reading that article wrong but I'm not seeing that he says those are the most important factors of all the dozens of stats. What I'm reading is that he arbitrarily picked those 4 stats and calculated the importance of each stat compared to the other 3. Am I interpreting that worng?
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You're probably interpreting it right: I didn't really look at it close enough, I wasn't sure what he was doing.
 
TBpup said:
Perhaps because the Raptors were missing 6 of their top 8 players from last years team and we were down double digits to that 2nd and 3rd string squad for much of the game. Nice to get a win but if that is how depleted a team has to be for us to squeeze out a win at the buzzer, it's not very encouraging.
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Very likely the case tonight. My comment was geared more towards what felt like a general trend that game-threads of wins have less activity than losses. I suppose I could look it up if I really wanted to find out.
 
Wiz, what are the stats for thread activity in wins vs. losses?
 
Tince said:
Very likely the case tonight. My comment was geared more towards what felt like a general trend that game-threads of wins have less activity than losses. I suppose I could look it up if I really wanted to find out.
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That seems to be the norm. In games we are leading and winning the game threads are much less active and with games that we are struggling the game thread is lit up with a bunch of whining and crying. I might browse through it after the game, but if I had to sit live with some of these guys I would end up walking out of the room with all the whining and crying that goes on in the game threads.
 
Tince said:
Very likely the case tonight. My comment was geared more towards what felt like a general trend that game-threads of wins have less activity than losses. I suppose I could look it up if I really wanted to find out.
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Several of the rah rah positive people (NOT ALL!) don't post much when the team is bad in general. I know a lot of people who have stopped watching the team this year. That leaves mostly people who are passionate about the team. The negativity sucks but I have to credit the people who still watch the games and make observations, good or bad.
 
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