Game Thread GAME# 5: BLAZERS @ HEAT - OCTOBER 27, 2018 - SATURDAY, 5:00 PM (PDT), NBCSNW

[TBpup]

Cool story.

This year, we are getting out offensive rebounded 62-59. So we may not be getting "killed" like I expected, but as always, your response to my assumption is completely irrelevant.

So we are getting out-rebounded by teams with a combined record of 11-16 so far. And we are 3-2. This SO MUCH feels like the mediocre team of the passed few years. Nothing really is changing. Given the strength of schedule, 3-2 isn't really anything to write home about. Fun team to watch when everything is easy and free flowing....but since that is not how the Playoffs are played, my optimism is not much higher than it has been in the passed few years.

 

[kjironman1]

I thought Meyers played pretty well, but Stotts shouldve gotten him out of the game at the 3 minute-ish mark, he was gassed and looked to be getting torched by Olynk...

Totally agree with this. I was actually thinking at about 3 mins that Collins should be paired with Nurk to finish out the game. But i can also understand Stotts not taking the Leonard out as he was part of the team coming back.

 

[Shaboid]

So we are getting out-rebounded by teams with a combined record of 11-16 so far. And we are 3-2. This SO MUCH feels like the mediocre team of the passed few years. Nothing really is changing. Given the strength of schedule, 3-2 isn't really anything to write home about. Fun team to watch when everything is easy and free flowing....but since that is not how the Playoffs are played, my optimism is not much higher than it has been in the passed few years.

The numbers I referenced are only offensive rebounds. Total rebounds we are ahead with a 256-236 advantage. I just noticed that the last couple games our opponents seem to be getting a lot of tip backs on missed shots, while we don't use that strategy.

On a related note, when was the last time a guy had back to back 15 rebound games and then only got two in the 3rd game? (Aminu) Maybe he had a little too much fun with the bottle service in south beach Friday night, cuz he looked like doodoo.

 

[kjironman1]

Stotts said he wanted to be open minded this year, and that players had to earn there minutes... so far he has locked back into his usual patterns... CJ shoots 4/25 the other night and stays in the game with a green light, Aminu is locked into his minutes and starting no matter how poorly he plays... Jake plays great last night and still gets his predictable first 4-5 min of the quarter, Collins has taken his game to next level yet still gets benched for Aminu

You must not have watched much last night? Not sure where you are getting Collins was benched for Aminu?

 

[Rozay]

The funny thing is Layman's not even playing that bad, they just refuse to play him for more than like 3 minutes at time... I don't know where Aminu's stats are this year, but it seems like he's just pretty much sucked on both ends of the court...

Aminu always been trash. Thank god his contract ends this year

 

[Rozay]

So we are getting out-rebounded by teams with a combined record of 11-16 so far. And we are 3-2. This SO MUCH feels like the mediocre team of the passed few years. Nothing really is changing. Given the strength of schedule, 3-2 isn't really anything to write home about. Fun team to watch when everything is easy and free flowing....but since that is not how the Playoffs are played, my optimism is not much higher than it has been in the passed few years.

We aren’t winning the championship this year anyways

 

[TBpup]

We aren’t winning the championship this year anyways

Of course not.

 

[Hoopguru]

We aren’t winning the championship this year anyways

28 other teams arnt either!

 

[BonesJones]

CJ isn't isolating as much but his shooting has been brutal. Maybe there is a correlation and that is just the type of player he is.

Doubt it, because he's shot a higher percentage off catch and shoot than off the dribble during his career.

 

[TBpup]

Doubt it, because he's shot a higher percentage off catch and shoot than off the dribble during his career.

Yes but that has always only been a portion of his shots. Outside of his spot-ups, he has largely been ISO....and that is a strength of his. So if he isn't being as ISO, do those shots that are not spot-ups, become less efficient shots for him?

 

[BonesJones]

Yes but that has always only been a portion of his shots. Outside of his spot-ups, he has largely been ISO....and that is a strength of his. So if he isn't being as ISO, do those shots that are not spot-ups, become less efficient shots for him?

Maybe he's not able to get as much of a rythym, but him simply being cold is a much more valid argument than his spot up shooting being off because of less isolation opportunities.

 

[ripcityboy]

28 other teams arnt either!

If we just view reality as Blazer fan this way... for an eternity. Then we should be happy with the situation.

 

[Hoopguru]

If we just view reality as Blazer fan this way... for an eternity. Then we should be happy with the situation.

Im all for striving to meet incremental goals and the ultimate goal of a championship, for sure.
And the American sports minded person also wants to win the whole enchilada, and nobody remembers who comes in second. It's always a winner takes all pot just like 5 card stud!
Its the American Spirit!

In the NBA often times its like my mother used to say to me when I was younger, in many cases the first shall become last, and the last shall become first.
GS were laggards for a number of years then the planets lined up and they continue to line up literally.
It really does take some luck, skill good ownership and management to even get close to contending and even then no guarantees.

 

[hoopsjock]

Maybe he's not able to get as much of a rythym, but him simply being cold is a much more valid argument than his spot up shooting being off because of less isolation opportunities.

It's interesting that his 3 point percentage so far is right in line with his career average but his two point percentage is down roughly 7%. Without looking at the specifics my guess would be that most people (including CJ) shoot more 3 pointers off of spot ups than they would in iso situations. I'd also guess that two pointers in the mid range for a guard would be almost exclusively off of iso situations or pick and rolls and probably not many spot up situations.

So if that's true it's basically saying that CJ is shooting the same on spot up 3's as last year but there is a big dip inside the arc. There are really only a few possible explanations, most of which @BonesJones has mentioned, and it could be a combination of all of these things. Either it's just a cold spurt to start the season, CJ is thinking too much about whether he should shoot or pass, it's gonna take some time for him to adjust to playing differently, or he just isn't that good anymore. Personally, I think it's a pretty clear combination of missing some shots he normally hits and then it getting in his head about whether or not he should shoot next time he's open.

I'm in no way saying he shouldn't pass more. However, so far this season there has been a huge change in the number of times he brings the ball up the floor and over dribbles before taking a bad shot without anyone else touching the ball. I agree with you @TBpup that watching the games it's clear he's still missing open players but you can also tell he is trying to be better about it. The problem is not many are willing to be patient with him while he figures it out. So far though his play does at least look different so it's unfortunate that he's not seeing any results from it. The next step is to use his abilities to set up others instead of using them to get himself looks. It seems awkward when he tries to do that though like on that fast break last night where he tried to pass to Nurk. He also missed/got fouled on a couple lay-ins last night that if he just finishes those he's closer to 50% shooting last night instead of 35%.

What's the solution? Should he not be looking to shoot at all unless it is a catch and shoot situation? He's gonna miss shots as most guards miss more shots than they make. Do his assists need to double or triple? Should we analyze every single shot that misses as a bad shot?

 

[Scalma]

It's interesting that his 3 point percentage so far is right in line with his career average but his two point percentage is down roughly 7%. Without looking at the specifics my guess would be that most people (including CJ) shoot more 3 pointers off of spot ups than they would in iso situations. I'd also guess that two pointers in the mid range for a guard would be almost exclusively off of iso situations or pick and rolls and probably not many spot up situations.

So if that's true it's basically saying that CJ is shooting the same on spot up 3's as last year but there is a big dip inside the arc. There are really only a few possible explanations, most of which @BonesJones has mentioned, and it could be a combination of all of these things. Either it's just a cold spurt to start the season, CJ is thinking too much about whether he should shoot or pass, it's gonna take some time for him to adjust to playing differently, or he just isn't that good anymore. Personally, I think it's a pretty clear combination of missing some shots he normally hits and then it getting in his head about whether or not he should shoot next time he's open.

I'm in no way saying he shouldn't pass more. However, so far this season there has been a huge change in the number of times he brings the ball up the floor and over dribbles before taking a bad shot without anyone else touching the ball. I agree with you @TBpup that watching the games it's clear he's still missing open players but you can also tell he is trying to be better about it. The problem is not many are willing to be patient with him while he figures it out. So far though his play does at least look different so it's unfortunate that he's not seeing any results from it. The next step is to use his abilities to set up others instead of using them to get himself looks. It seems awkward when he tries to do that though like on that fast break last night where he tried to pass to Nurk. He also missed/got fouled on a couple lay-ins last night that if he just finishes those he's closer to 50% shooting last night instead of 35%.

What's the solution? Should he not be looking to shoot at all unless it is a catch and shoot situation? He's gonna miss shots as most guards miss more shots than they make. Do his assists need to double or triple? Should we analyze every single shot that misses as a bad shot?

The guy averaged 4+ assists his first year in the lineup, so it’s not like we’re asking him to do something foreign. His assists have gone down each year since, despite an increase in minutes. Maybe he could start by checking his ego.

 

[Hoopguru]

If we just view reality as Blazer fan this way... for an eternity. Then we should be happy with the situation.

One should always be content, grasshopper!

 

[hoopsjock]

The guy averaged 4+ assists his first year in the lineup, so it’s not like we’re asking him to do something foreign. His assists have gone down each year since, despite an increase in minutes. Maybe he could start by checking his ego.

Do you think that has anything to do with Turner? ET was brought in to help with the ball handling duties but he rarely makes a shot in catch and shoot situations. If CJ was playing as the primary playmaker in the 2nd unit with Curry, Stauskas, Harkless, and Collins would his assists go up? Last year in those situations he was playing with guys like Turner, Connaughton, and Ed Davis. Sure ego could be a part of it but it's not like he had very good shooters to pass out to. So far this year he hasn't been the point guard very often.

 

[kjironman1]

Im all for striving to meet incremental goals and the ultimate goal of a championship, for sure.
And the American sports minded person also wants to win the whole enchilada, and nobody remembers who comes in second. It's always a winner takes all pot just like 5 card stud!
Its the American Spirit!

In the NBA often times its like my mother used to say to me when I was younger, in many cases the first shall become last, and the last shall become first.
GS were laggards for a number of years then the planets lined up and they continue to line up literally.
It really does take some luck, skill good ownership and management to even get close to contending and even then no guarantees.

No question in my mind at all. Golden States 2015 championship was all about the planets lining up correctly. First thing to do is get into the Playoffs. We have seen anything can happen once the playoffs start.

 

[Scalma]

Do you think that has anything to do with Turner? ET was brought in to help with the ball handling duties but he rarely makes a shot in catch and shoot situations. If CJ was playing as the primary playmaker in the 2nd unit with Curry, Stauskas, Harkless, and Collins would his assists go up? Last year in those situations he was playing with guys like Turner, Connaughton, and Ed Davis. Sure ego could be a part of it but it's not like he had very good shooters to pass out to. So far this year he hasn't been the point guard very often.

Yes it’s everyone else’s fault.

CJ has the ball in his hands more than anyone on the team outside of Dame. Turner has it more this year but that doesn’t excuse CJ.

I’m honestly curious how anyone can watch CJ and NOT conclude that he plays a selfish brand of basketball. The amount of open teammates he misses, literally every game, is staggering. His approach never changes, whether he’s struggling or not. The coach could share part of the blame for allowing him to do whatever the fuck he wants, with no repercussions, but that’s still irrelevant if the player himself is unwilling to acknowledge, yet alone change, his deficiencies.

 

[HailBlazers]

This year, we are getting out offensive rebounded 62-59. So we may not be getting "killed" like I expected, but as always, your response to my assumption is completely irrelevant.

Ed Davis. Exactly where I thought we'd miss him.

 

[kjironman1]

Yes it’s everyone else’s fault.

CJ has the ball in his hands more than anyone on the team outside of Dame. Turner has it more this year but that doesn’t excuse CJ.

I’m honestly curious how anyone can watch CJ and NOT conclude that he plays a selfish brand of basketball. The amount of open teammates he misses, literally every game, is staggering. His approach never changes, whether he’s struggling or not. The coach could share part of the blame for allowing him to do whatever the fuck he wants, with no repercussions, but that’s still irrelevant if the player himself is unwilling to acknowledge, yet alone change, his deficiencies.

A couple on here just can't see it that way i guess. CJ himself said before the season that he was going to work on sharing the ball more. Even he sees it. There is no way he isn't watching game film and missing the men with open looks around him. Lets hope he is working on it as we speak.

 

[hoopsjock]

Yes it’s everyone else’s fault.

CJ has the ball in his hands more than anyone on the team outside of Dame. Turner has it more this year but that doesn’t excuse CJ.

I’m honestly curious how anyone can watch CJ and NOT conclude that he plays a selfish brand of basketball. The amount of open teammates he misses, literally every game, is staggering. His approach never changes, whether he’s struggling or not. The coach could share part of the blame for allowing him to do whatever the fuck he wants, with no repercussions, but that’s still irrelevant if the player himself is unwilling to acknowledge, yet alone change, his deficiencies.

Scalma, can we not discuss this without accusing someone of making excuses? Where did I say I didn't think CJ is selfish?

If his approach never changes why did his assists drop? I'm not trying to excuse his selfishness, but there has to be a reason why they are going the opposite direction they should be, right? If your argument is that he gets more selfish each season, then that is fine but I don't think that fully explains anything and you also claim he never changes so I find it hard to believe it's worse than it was.

 

[Scalma]

Scalma, can we not discuss this without accusing someone of making excuses? Where did I say I didn't think CJ is selfish?

If his approach never changes why did his assists drop? I'm not trying to excuse his selfishness, but there has to be a reason why they are going the opposite direction they should be, right? If your argument is that he gets more selfish each season, then that is fine but I don't think that fully explains anything and you also claim he never changes so I find it hard to believe it's worse than it was.

Well who knows what the real reason is. My theory is ego. His first year starting he was still hungry with something to prove. He’s gradually gotten more and more full of himself. “I know what I do, I don’t need preseason.” Like who does he think he is? Unless you’re Lebron, shut up. And that’s just one example. His whole vibe is off putting to me. A little reality check would be nice, and in everyone’s best interests.

 

[hoopsjock]

Well who knows what the real reason is. My theory is ego. His first year starting he was still hungry with something to prove. He’s gradually gotten more and more full of himself. “I know what I do, I don’t need preseason.” Like who does he think he is? Unless you’re Lebron, shut up. And that’s just one example. His whole vibe is off putting to me. A little reality check would be nice, and in everyone’s best interests.

And how would that look on the floor? Should he pull a Kobe and not shoot the ball a whole game?

 

[ripcityboy]

There is no way in hell somebody can convince me that C.J. didn't train hard in the off season. No NBA player can afford to not train in the off season because he might not have a job the next year. Dame sets the tone for the whole team. The only guy I could see using most of the off season for recreation is ET.

 

[Scalma]

And how would that look on the floor? Should he pull a Kobe and not shoot the ball a whole game?

Make the proper reads. Not a novel concept.

 

[Shaboid]

Ed Davis. Exactly where I thought we'd miss him.

Nobody is boxing out, am I right?

 

[Labinot41]

now, I've been a pretty consistent CJ doubter. Some posters here have hammered me for it just as consistently (in the end i give a shit What other People think because my oppionion is oppionion), But I've been at a place for quite a while that more and more people are arriving at: that place being that CJ has been significantly overrated by a lot of people here and massively overrated by Olshey and the Blazer front office

I think CJ has been used wrong. Stotts has made him a go-to one-on-one option and the truth is he isn't that good at it. Sure, he's a very clever ball-handler and good at finding shooting space using his dribble. But he's not very efficient; part of that his his low FT rate, but part of it is because his ball-handling doesn't produce results at a high level, and he's a big time ball-stopper. He might be one of the biggest ball-stoppers in the league.

and we shouldn't forget that he carries this lower efficiency while defenses are focused on Lillard. CJ drafts off Dame and still posts average to below Average efficiency. Frankly, he's a poor 2nd option. No team will be close to contending with CJ as the 2nd best player burning thru the 2nd most possessions with a salary consuming 25% of the cap

but then I guess contending hasn't really been the goal. It's just selling tickets and keeping people entertained. But with CJ as a mainstay, the on-floor product has become less and less entertaining. Now, it's not all on CJ...and I fully expect he's going to climb out of his plump. But it shouldn't come as a surprise that the only player that can consistently carry this team is Dame. CJ just isn't close to the level Dame is at...but he's paid like he is; that's a problem

 

[kjironman1]

now, I've been a pretty consistent CJ doubter. Some posters here have hammered me for it just as consistently (in the end i give a shit What other People think because my oppionion is oppionion), But I've been at a place for quite a while that more and more people are arriving at: that place being that CJ has been significantly overrated by a lot of people here and massively overrated by Olshey and the Blazer front office

I think CJ has been used wrong. Stotts has made him a go-to one-on-one option and the truth is he isn't that good at it. Sure, he's a very clever ball-handler and good at finding shooting space using his dribble. But he's not very efficient; part of that his his low FT rate, but part of it is because his ball-handling doesn't produce results at a high level, and he's a big time ball-stopper. He might be one of the biggest ball-stoppers in the league.

and we shouldn't forget that he carries this lower efficiency while defenses are focused on Lillard. CJ drafts off Dame and still posts average to below Average efficiency. Frankly, he's a poor 2nd option. No team will be close to contending with CJ as the 2nd best player burning thru the 2nd most possessions with a salary consuming 25% of the cap

but then I guess contending hasn't really been the goal. It's just selling tickets and keeping people entertained. But with CJ as a mainstay, the on-floor product has become less and less entertaining. Now, it's not all on CJ...and I fully expect he's going to climb out of his plump. But it shouldn't come as a surprise that the only player that can consistently carry this team is Dame. CJ just isn't close to the level Dame is at...but he's paid like he is; that's a problem

You had me reading and agreeing with you until you went all Eeyore on it.
It's just more of the same in today's climate. If you don't like what you are seeing then it's a conspiracy and of course you have no choice in the matter right? If you honestly think a bunch of very fine people are only in this to sell tickets and make money off of you then why are you even here? I don't know many but the few people i do know in the organization are all about winning and a championship is always the goal.

 

[BonesJones]

now, I've been a pretty consistent CJ doubter. Some posters here have hammered me for it just as consistently (in the end i give a shit What other People think because my oppionion is oppionion), But I've been at a place for quite a while that more and more people are arriving at: that place being that CJ has been significantly overrated by a lot of people here and massively overrated by Olshey and the Blazer front office

I think CJ has been used wrong. Stotts has made him a go-to one-on-one option and the truth is he isn't that good at it. Sure, he's a very clever ball-handler and good at finding shooting space using his dribble. But he's not very efficient; part of that his his low FT rate, but part of it is because his ball-handling doesn't produce results at a high level, and he's a big time ball-stopper. He might be one of the biggest ball-stoppers in the league.

and we shouldn't forget that he carries this lower efficiency while defenses are focused on Lillard. CJ drafts off Dame and still posts average to below Average efficiency. Frankly, he's a poor 2nd option. No team will be close to contending with CJ as the 2nd best player burning thru the 2nd most possessions with a salary consuming 25% of the cap

but then I guess contending hasn't really been the goal. It's just selling tickets and keeping people entertained. But with CJ as a mainstay, the on-floor product has become less and less entertaining. Now, it's not all on CJ...and I fully expect he's going to climb out of his plump. But it shouldn't come as a surprise that the only player that can consistently carry this team is Dame. CJ just isn't close to the level Dame is at...but he's paid like he is; that's a problem

2 years ago he was efficient. Last year he wasnt. Thia year is a 5 game sample size. He has siren that he can score at a high level, just not lately. A lot of players earn max contracts, and they're not all on the same level.. there isn't an uncapped salary, so to say the problem is that C.J. isn't as good but makes as much Dame isn't reasonable because that's just a product of max salaries. If you want to say C.J. isn't worth $25M a year, that'd make more sense.