Gender issue revisited - Buck Angel

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Doesn't it depend on the belief? If someone is asking you to change your belief in or against a higher power I agree but if you're being asked to change how you address or label a person of color I would say that your beliefs should change.

You already said it - it depends on the belief. Now you're asking me to change my belief in a higher power? If I'm respectful to a person, as long as I don't have any malice or intended hate in my heart, it shouldn't matter what my belief is. My belief is my belief. And for someone to force their belief onto me is wrong. Then that person is failing to show a lack of understanding, and is a bigoted. We don't all have to have the same beliefs.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

She's not intolerant of any particular groups of people. That's the kicker.

Denying a person is who they know they are is being intolerant. Apply that to all transgendered (or gay, or whatever) people and you have intolerance toward a group.

Strictly by the definition.

Read the part I bolded: "a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices;"

The part after the semi-colon is an add-on. crandc is intolerantly devoted to her opinion on this. If I don't accept her POV, I am a bigot? But if she can't accept that other people have different POV's, she's not a bigot?

 

[Denny Crane]

So it's OK to believe that some other race is inferior and you're not the bigot. The ones who don't accept your view are the bigots?

That's just weird.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that's how it's reading.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

I don't care one way or another. I just find this oddly amusing that there are people here saying their viewpoint is incorrect, and that only their one viewpoint is correct and anyone who sees differently is a bigot. That's some good irony there.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

So it's OK to believe that some other race is inferior and you're not the bigot. The ones who don't accept your view are the bigots?

That's just weird.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that's how it's reading.

Really? Well, that's what you're doing. When did I say anything about race? When did I call anyone inferior?

It's weird. You don't want to put words in my mouth, but you just put "race" and "inferior" in my mouth? Very odd.

 

[Denny Crane]

Read the part I bolded: "a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices;"

The part after the semi-colon is an add-on. crandc is intolerantly devoted to her opinion on this. If I don't accept her POV, I am a bigot? But if she can't accept that other people have different POV's, she's not a bigot?

It's not an issue of opinion or prejudice. She has no opinion of the homecoming queen's gender. She simply accepts the homecoming queen at her word and by her deeds and actions.

 

[Denny Crane]

Really? Well, that's what you're doing. When did I say anything about race? When did I call anyone inferior?

It's weird. You don't want to put words in my mouth, but you just put "race" and "inferior" in my mouth? Very odd.

Read sly's post. He asked about racial bigotry.

but if you're being asked to change how you address or label a person of color I would say that your beliefs should change.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Read sly's post. He asked about racial bigotry.

I read Sly's post. He changed the topic. I said nothing about race or inferior. I was saying nothing about race or inferiority. That was pretty clear. I was sticking to the context of the conversation. So yeah, back to it. You put words in my mouth.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

It's not an issue of opinion or prejudice. She has no opinion of the homecoming queen's gender. She simply accepts the homecoming queen at her word and by her deeds and actions.

She has an opinion that her viewpoint is the only one that properly exists; all other viewpoints are incorrect and bigoted. Again, she's intolerantly devoted to her opinion/viewpoint on the subject. Like I said, I don't really care. I find it ironic that the person calling out "bigots" has one POV only, and all others are incorrect and intolerant.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Again, about the discourse on this board...

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Again, about the discourse on this board...

LMAO.

 

[MARIS61]

However, it is basic courtesy to address and refer to people in the way they prefer.

Nonsense.

Kobe prefers not to be called a rapist.

Creationists prefer to be called god's children.

Ugly people prefer to be called attractive.

Stupid people prefer to be called smart.

Murderers prefer to be called innocent victims of mistaken identity.

John Boehner would prefer to be addressed as Mr. President.

Never gonna happen.

 

[Denny Crane]

I read Sly's post. He changed the topic. I said nothing about race or inferior. I was saying nothing about race or inferiority. That was pretty clear. I was sticking to the context of the conversation. So yeah, back to it. You put words in my mouth.

Race, Gender, Sexual Preference. Equal billing. For this discussion's purposes, the same.

 

[Denny Crane]

She has an opinion that her viewpoint is the only one that properly exists; all other viewpoints are incorrect and bigoted. Again, she's intolerantly devoted to her opinion/viewpoint on the subject. Like I said, I don't really care. I find it ironic that the person calling out "bigots" has one POV only, and all others are incorrect and intolerant.

Sorry, but I strongly disagree. This is Natural Law. All Men Created Equal kind of stuff. Not opinion.

There's no requirement that one be tolerant of whatever groups one chooses to be intolerant of. But that makes one a bigot.

 

[Denny Crane]

Wikipedia's definition of bigot:

Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats other people with fear, distrust, hatred, contempt, or intolerance on the basis of a person's ethnicity, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics.

 

[MARIS61]

She's not intolerant of any particular groups of people.

That's innaccurate.

crandc is extremely intolerant of all men who exhibit decidedly male traits and attitudes, all political and social conservatives, and generally anyone who doesn't agree with her on issues important to her.

I'm not saying she should BE tolerant of these people, just that she isn't.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Sorry, but I strongly disagree. This is Natural Law. All Men Created Equal kind of stuff. Not opinion.

There's no requirement that one be tolerant of whatever groups one chooses to be intolerant of. But that makes one a bigot.

Natural Law? Are you now defining Natural Law?

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Wikipedia's definition of bigot:

Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats other people with fear, distrust, hatred, contempt, or intolerance on the basis of a person's ethnicity, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics.

So, by this basis, the use of the word "bigot" has been used incorrectly several times on the board recently.

 

[Denny Crane]

Natural Law? Are you now defining Natural Law?

I'm not defining it. It is already well defined, and hundreds of years ago. It is the basis for modern enlightenment and international law.

 

[Denny Crane]

So, by this basis, the use of the word "bigot" has been used incorrectly several times on the board recently.

By you ;-)

It is a fact that one shows contempt for a transgendered person by:
1. She's not a she, she's what I want to say she is
2. Because she went out in some public place, she is asking for it
3. Because she calls attention to #2, she's an attention whore

And assorted other denial of rights and/or privileges:
Particularly Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness (Natural Law!)

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

By you ;-)

It is a fact that one shows contempt for a transgendered person by:
1. She's not a she, she's what I want to say she is
2. Because she went out in some public place, she is asking for it
3. Because she calls attention to #2, she's an attention whore

And assorted other denial of rights and/or privileges:
Particularly Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness (Natural Law!)

I already showed you how she was a "bigot" according to a definition you posted. But in all seriousness, I don't really think she's a bigot. Is she a bit narrow-minded, for better or worse? Yeah, she has a stronghold of her beliefs and she gives the appearance that their unchangeable. Cool by me - I don't really care. I was more or less using the word "bigot" to point out the irony, and I genuinely believe several posters here have directing it towards other posters way too freely, and it's not very cool.

 

[Denny Crane]

I already showed you how she was a "bigot" according to a definition you posted. But in all seriousness, I don't really think she's a bigot. Is she a bit narrow-minded, for better or worse? Yeah, she has a stronghold of her beliefs and she gives the appearance that their unchangeable. Cool by me - I don't really care. I was more or less using the word "bigot" to point out the irony, and I genuinely believe several posters here have directing it towards other posters way too freely, and it's not very cool.

In general, I don't think she's very narrow minded. She's vocal about pointing out injustices when she sees them. She'll probably admit she was wrong about wanting the team to draft Durant over Oden. Haha.

I cannot stress enough the Natural Law /Rights aspect of this. Sly made the reference (similar holding to such beliefs if racist...). It is very much a civil rights issue. Once you get that, the rest is obvious.

Like I said, it isn't a derogatory word. It is no more derogatory than "homer" for a sports fan.

Here's the definition you misused again:

: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

See the word especially?

Just so I can be fully precise:

A civil right is an enforceable right or privilege, which if interfered with by another gives rise to an action for injury. Examples of civil rights are freedom of speech, press, and assembly; the right to vote; freedom from involuntary servitude; and the right to equality in public places. Discrimination occurs when the civil rights of an individual are denied or interfered with because of their membership in a particular group or class.

Source: http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/civil_rights

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

If whether or not being bigoted is up to semantics, it's probably not being bigoted. Bigot is a powerful word and has much stronger connotations than how its being used around here. Calling someone a bigot if they are ignorant of an issue is incorrect. Calling someone a bigot because they hold a belief is incorrect. Bigotry is about actions.

 

[Denny Crane]

If whether or not being bigoted is up to semantics, it's probably not being bigoted. Bigot is a powerful word and has much stronger connotations than how its being used around here. Calling someone a bigot if they are ignorant of an issue is incorrect. Calling someone a bigot because they hold a belief is incorrect. Bigotry is about actions.

Actions like...

Posting insults toward one of the groups described by the definitions? How much of a difference is there between posting death threats on the homecoming queen's Facebook page and posting elsewhere that she was asking for it?

Voting in a referendum against marriage or right to serve or to adopt?

If ignorance and intolerance go hand in hand, it is bigotry.

Edit: I really like the words "equality in public places" in the Cornell law school definition of civil rights.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Actions like...

Posting insults toward one of the groups described by the definitions? How much of a difference is there between posting death threats on the homecoming queen's Facebook page and posting elsewhere that she was asking for it?

There is a big difference, especially to this community. Do you think anyone around here besides maybe BenDavis503 would do something so stupid as to make a death threat online? Prrrrrobably not.

However, it seems that people around here view this forum as place to sound off and to test the limits of freedom of speech. And I think that's fine. This is all part of the process. But when people are expressing their internal beliefs, whether or not those beliefs are informed opinions or gut feelings or somewhere in between, that can't be bigotry. It's not an action. We are transforming our thoughts into digital characters, putting pen to paper as it were, and simply communicating.

Voting in a referendum against marriage or right to serve or to adopt?

Actions. Bigotry.

If ignorance and intolerance go hand in hand, it is bigotry.

You're conflating ignorance with intolerance. Those are two different things. As long as we're citing Wikipedia (my adviser would kill me):

"Ignorance is a state of being uninformed"

 

[Denny Crane]

There is a big difference, especially to this community. Do you think anyone around here besides maybe BenDavis503 would do something so stupid as to make a death threat online? Prrrrrobably not.

However, it seems that people around here view this forum as place to sound off and to test the limits of freedom of speech. And I think that's fine. This is all part of the process. But when people are expressing their internal beliefs, whether or not those beliefs are informed opinions or gut feelings or somewhere in between, that can't be bigotry. It's not an action. We are transforming our thoughts into digital characters, putting pen to paper as it were, and simply communicating.

You don't have to make a death threat action. You can unwittingly encourage it by expressing intolerance. Enthusiastically. Refuting Reason.

And it is very hurtful to people in whatever group to read even here. Equality in public places.

I'm fine with letting people ignorantly act like bigots. If we're going to allow this expression, then we have to let people call out the bigotry where it is. It is how you have free speech; fight bad speech with good speech.

And your invention of a requirement for action isn't in the definition of bigot. Not anywhere I've ever read but your previous post.

You're conflating ignorance with intolerance. Those are two different things. As long as we're citing Wikipedia (my adviser would kill me):

"Ignorance is a state of being uninformed"

I know what ignorance us, and it's no defense. I'm not conflating the two, I am reading the combination of the two plenty.

 

[Denny Crane]

Perfect example of a bigot is Archie Bunker, right?

Where was his action?

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

You don't have to make a death threat action. You can unwittingly encourage it by expressing intolerance. Enthusiastically. Refuting Reason.

And it is very hurtful to people in whatever group to read even here. Equality in public places.

I'm fine with letting people ignorantly act like bigots. If we're going to allow this expression, then we have to let people call out the bigotry where it is. It is how you have free speech; fight bad speech with good speech.

And your invention of a requirement for action isn't in the definition of bigot. Not anywhere I've ever read but your previous post.

I know what ignorance us, and it's no defense. I'm not conflating the two, I am reading the combination of the two plenty.

Wikipedia's definition of bigot:

Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats other people with fear, distrust, hatred, contempt, or intolerance on the basis of a person's ethnicity, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics.

This definition. I just don't think your belief make you a bigot. It's what you do with your beliefs. On this board, people tend to think out loud, which is protected speech. I am certainly allowed to think out loud in response and challenge what they say. I don't call people here bigots because I haven't seen anyone here treat anyone differently because of their beliefs.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Perfect example of a bigot is Archie Bunker, right?

Where was his action?

Good question, I had to wikipedia that name.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

This definition. I just don't think your belief make you a bigot. It's what you do with your beliefs. On this board, people tend to think out loud, which is protected speech. I am certainly allowed to think out loud in response and challenge what they say. I don't call people here bigots because I haven't seen anyone here treat anyone differently because of their beliefs.

This is a private board. There is no protected speech.