Gender issue revisited - Buck Angel (2 Viewers)

[SlyPokerDog]

 

[oldguy]

The person is still transgendered. If you can't accept it, and disrespect the person, then that us bigoted.

And what is wrong with being "correct?"

Keep avoiding the issue. You claim that it is bigoted to not call them what they present.

Jait was a guy when he was Daniella, and Jait proved that by later self-deciding that he is a guy. (Unless you want to make a case that TG people's gender is fluid throughout their lives.) Therefore, if he was always a guy, it was not bigoted, and not mean spirited, to have called him a guy at all times, except when Daniella was present, so as not to insult her.

It's not really that hard to understand, Denny. You said that TG people NEVER change their minds once they self identify. (Or, at least no more likely than me "magically" becoming gay....and that's a 0% probability.) You were so fucking positive about that that you say it is bigoted and 'assholely', apparently, to call a self determined lady a guy when they are not present, even when they actually are a guy.

So, explain to me how it is bigoted to call a guy, born with a penis, becoming confused, self-identifying as a girl, then coming full circle to say that they are still a guy, a guy.

Go Blazers

 

[oldguy]

oldguy, why are you positing these scenarios? I lost track

Because I want Denny to address the questions I've asked, or admit what he wrote was nonsense. Once Denny makes something up, it takes pages to show that he's wrong, because he never admits it, and will wiggle and squirm until whoever calls him out gives up.

He would have us believe that TG people never change their minds. I think I've shown that is just made up.

Go Blazers

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Because I want Denny to address the questions I've asked, or admit what he wrote was nonsense. Once Denny makes something up, it takes pages to show that he's wrong, because he never admits it, and will wiggle and squirm until whoever calls him out gives up.

He would have us believe that TG people never change their minds. I think I've shown that is just made up.

Go Blazers

As I said earlier about a Denny and his responses. He has yet to respond to my real last point on the subject because it was right.

Denny gets paid for hits and posts. His posts are sometimes off, but he does a good job continuing the conversation and drawing people in. Don't forget this.

 

[oldguy]

Yeah I get that sense, too. I usually don't care if someone wants to beat their chest about how enlightened and PC they are. It's when they talk down to people, and insist that every single person must think exactly like they do, or they make it personal. If you don't see it their way, you are stupid, bigoted, mean spirited and/or low brow, when others have an opinion that is just as valid as the one they hold. Just different.

Denny seems to have a problem just saying that what he stated was wrong for some reason. Which I would like to think gets back to the reason you offered up....more hits.

Go Blazers

 

[MarAzul]

Holy Mackerel! Any one of those would fuck up a young mans evening.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Denny's high school senior photo.

 

[Further]

Old guy, here is my take on all your scenarios

It's good that you are polite and respectful in that when you refer to the transgender in their presence, you use the term they identify as.

If they changed their mind, the same applies, refer to them as what they identify as.

Privately, I may think it's rude to then use the opposite term, but that's between you and your conscience. Is it WRONG, well, it's a hell of a lot better than to use it in public, but it would be nice if people weren't having their private lives critiqued by you as soon as they leave. It strikes me as disingenuous to wait for Patty to leave, turn to your buddy and refer to Patty as a he. So, why does that matter, well, it doesn't, except that you help set the standards of acceptance in your community. If Patty leaves and you turn to your buddy and call her a he, well, it makes true acceptance much more difficult in the long run.

Can people change their minds, yes. It doesn't happen often in situations like this, but that's also besides the point. There is no big burden placed on you to call someone as they present. You do it all the time with cis gendered people. If someone clearly dresses and acts like they are a man or a woman, then just refer to them by the gender presented. And if they change their mind, you still just refer to them as the gender presented. It's not some big hardship.

But, throughout all that, It's nice to know that at a minimum you are respectful and nice in person.

 

[MARIS61]

You see the complexity of the issue. But the problem still remains.

There is a well known stand up comedian in the Middle East named Wonho Chung. His parents are both Korean. But, he grew up in Jordan, speaks Arabic as his native language, and identifies as an Arab. Should he not be able to say he is an Arab?

How about Brother Ali, the albino rapper? Both his parents are black, but he looks white. Should he not be able to call himself black?

They can both CALL THEMSELVES whatever they want but I'll call them by their names.

As most of you know I self-identify as a Real American. I knew deep inside my soul by age 3 that was who I was. I've been told by teachers, friends and colleagues that I'm somehow not a "Real" American. I want everyone to refer to me as a Real American.

Does this respect thing apply to everyone or just people confused about their gender?

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

They can both CALL THEMSELVES whatever they want but I'll call them by their names.

As most of you know I self-identify as a Real American. I knew deep inside my soul by age 3 that was who I was. I've been told by teachers, friends and colleagues that I'm somehow not a "Real" American. I want everyone to refer to me as a Real American.

Does this respect thing apply to everyone or just people confused about their gender?

Everyone who isn't being snarky just to stir shit up.

 

[crandc]

I appreciate that Denny and hoojacks have tried (and tried and tried and tried) to explain in the simplest possible terms and have provided links to more information. I have given up. The information is available to anyone who wants to learn. At a certain point one must accept that some people just don't want to learn. It's too comfortable to ridicule people who are different from them. Or they just consider that ignorance is not only bliss but preferable. Or both.

 

[oldguy]

I appreciate that Denny and hoojacks have tried (and tried and tried and tried) to explain in the simplest possible terms and have provided links to more information. I have given up. The information is available to anyone who wants to learn. At a certain point one must accept that some people just don't want to learn. It's too comfortable to ridicule people who are different from them. Or they just consider that ignorance is not only bliss but preferable. Or both.

In what way do/did I ridicule anyone, even in the hypotheticals (except you and Denny for being the thought police)? That's absurd.


Go Blazers

 

[Denny Crane]

Your hypotheticals were rather silly.

As silly as the one I propose, but it has way more value.

Hypothetical:

Suppose you magically choose to become gay.

1. It won't happen, you have to be born that way.
2. Just like transgender, there's no magic to "turn" that way.
(Either proposition - you turning gay, some transgender changing their mind, is absurd on the face of it)


Then:

1. If you don't act on your new gayness, are you gay? Why? It doesn't show in any way, shape or form.
2. Just like transgender, the person may not present as his/her true gender.

And,

There is an element of choice simply in choosing to act on being gay or transgender. You seem confused about this. Read the words a few times.

Finally,

It's not so black and white. There are lots of men who wear women's clothes who aren't transgender. I know a gay man who tells me he dresses like a woman once in a very great while for some event. The monty python guys dress up in drag for many of their skits; they're not transgender.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

I appreciate that Denny and hoojacks have tried (and tried and tried and tried) to explain in the simplest possible terms and have provided links to more information. I have given up. The information is available to anyone who wants to learn. At a certain point one must accept that some people just don't want to learn. It's too comfortable to ridicule people who are different from them. Or they just consider that ignorance is not only bliss but preferable. Or both.

I feel the same way, but towards you guys. You guys are looking at the picture in one way, and one way only. I was looking at your guys' view. I was also looking at the other views, because they also exist.

 

[Denny Crane]

I feel the same way, but towards you guys. You guys are looking at the picture in one way, and one way only. I was looking at your guys' view. I was also looking at the other views, because they also exist.

You are absolutely right.

There are neo-nazi www sites because they have views that exist.

Is it too PC to say their views are 100% wrong?

 

[VanillaGorilla]

I appreciate that Denny and hoojacks have tried (and tried and tried and tried) to explain in the simplest possible terms and have provided links to more information. I have given up. The information is available to anyone who wants to learn. At a certain point one must accept that some people just don't want to learn. It's too comfortable to ridicule people who are different from them. Or they just consider that ignorance is not only bliss but preferable. Or both.

Yeah, you guys are the ones with closed minds that refuse to learn. So hard headed.

I feel the same way, but towards you guys. You guys are looking at the picture in one way, and one way only. I was looking at your guys' view. I was also looking at the other views, because they also exist.

 

[magnifier661]

You are absolutely right.

There are neo-nazi www sites because they have views that exist.

Is it too PC to say their views are 100% wrong?

Total fucking hyperbole

 

[magnifier661]

I feel the same way, but towards you guys. You guys are looking at the picture in one way, and one way only. I was looking at your guys' view. I was also looking at the other views, because they also exist.

Gonna have to agree with you. I think it's funny that people would bash those with opinions other than theirs; using the same tactics they find disgusting.

 

[MARIS61]

Everyone who isn't being snarky just to stir shit up.

So you're excluded?

 

[Denny Crane]

Total fucking hyperbole

You are totally fucking wrong.

 

[magnifier661]

You are totally fucking wrong.

You are exaggerating the obvious to support your argument. So fucking what about the neo nazis opinions. There are many other groups that share similar views. You used an extreme to get a desired reaction.

 

[magnifier661]

Example of Denny hyperbole.

Any Poster "Kites use wind and resistance to float in the sky"

Denny "Neo Nazis use wind to guide their bullets into black skulls; therefor you must hate kites!"

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Gonna have to agree with you. I think it's funny that people would bash those with opinions other than theirs; using the same tactics they find disgusting.

No shit. I'm considering and accepting the views of biological sex AND phsycological sex/gender. That's how I understand things. That's how I view things. That's how I live my life, balancing those two viewpoints. Instead, I am being told I am close-minded and wrong because I view and accept those two different perspectives, as opposed to living by the psychological sex/gender viewpoint only. I'd argue that while those that view the psychological sex/gender viewpoint may be more compassionate towards individual people and how they choose to live their life, those that can understand the multiple viewpoints are more open-minded in general.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Yeah, you guys are the ones with closed minds that refuse to learn. So hard headed.

Huh?

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

You are absolutely right.

There are neo-nazi www sites because they have views that exist.

Is it too PC to say their views are 100% wrong?

Extremely stupid example. Those are viewpoints. Google "biological sex" as I told you to do before (in a post you chose to ignore because it was inconvenient to your point). Biological sex is a legit part of science. Just as psychological sex, or gender, as it's being referred to here.

 

[magnifier661]

No shit. I'm considering and accepting the views of biological sex AND phsycological sex/gender. That's how I understand things. That's how I view things. That's how I live my life, balancing those two viewpoints. Instead, I am being told I am close-minded and wrong because I view and accept those two different perspectives, as opposed to living by the psychological sex/gender viewpoint only. I'd argue that while those that view the psychological sex/gender viewpoint may be more compassionate towards individual people and how they choose to live their life, those that can understand the multiple viewpoints are more open-minded in general.

Exactly... Opinions can be wrong to one and right to another. Some people need to practice what they preach.

 

[magnifier661]

Huh?

I think he was agreeing with you and making a reference of Denny and Crandac

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

I feel the same way, but towards you guys. You guys are looking at the picture in one way, and one way only. I was looking at your guys' view. I was also looking at the other views, because they also exist.

I can't speak for the other posters who are arguing the same (basic) points that I am, but I will say this: I used to see it differently. I used to feel pretty strongly that I shouldn't have to call a transgendered person the opposite of what they really are. It felt intellectually dishonest. I also used to resent the people who were so adamant that I changed my behavior.

Somewhere along the line, I completely reversed my opinions. There was no "aha!" moment of logic gifted to me by inane arguing on a basketball forum. I think two things happened: I got older and I actually got to know some transgendered people.
As I got older I stopped worrying about "being right/correct." Something in me calmed down. When I met two transgendered friends of mine and listened to what they had to say about their gender, that had an effect. But I think most importantly when I became good friends with them I got to view them as normal people and not some kind of puzzle I had to solve.

So, no, I don't think the opposite side is "wrong." I think it's about respect. If you're going to go through the effort of calling someone what they identify as to their face, why turn around and not do that when they leave? To prove a point to yourself? To reassure those around you that you don't really mean what you said? When I used to do this, it's because it just felt wrong. I couldn't muster a logical argument for it. And over time, I got over that feeling and I attribute it to the natural human prejudice towards the other. We hate it when we can't easily categorize somebody. We categorize them anyway and insist we're correct because of LOGICAL REASONS X, Y, AND Z (and of course not because they are imposters, delusional, or perverts.)

 

[magnifier661]

I can't speak for the other posters who are arguing the same (basic) points that I am, but I will say this: I used to see it differently. I used to feel pretty strongly that I shouldn't have to call a transgendered person the opposite of what they really are. It felt intellectually dishonest. I also used to resent the people who were so adamant that I changed my behavior.

Somewhere along the line, I completely reversed my opinions. There was no "aha!" moment of logic gifted to me by inane arguing on a basketball forum. I think two things happened: I got older and I actually got to know some transgendered people.
As I got older I stopped worrying about "being right/correct." Something in me calmed down. When I met two transgendered friends of mine and listened to what they had to say about their gender, that had an effect. But I think most importantly when I became good friends with them I got to view them as normal people and not some kind of puzzle I had to solve.

So, no, I don't think the opposite side is "wrong." I think it's about respect. If you're going to go through the effort of calling someone what they identify as to their face, why turn around and not do that when they leave? To prove a point to yourself? To reassure those around you that you don't really mean what you said? When I used to do this, it's because it just felt wrong. I couldn't muster a logical argument for it. And over time, I got over that feeling and I attribute it to the natural human prejudice towards the other. We hate it when we can't easily categorize somebody. We categorize them anyway and insist we're correct because of LOGICAL REASONS X, Y, AND Z (and of course not because they are imposters, delusional, or perverts.)

All the power to you brother! Its a good way of looking at things. What the real problem here isn't the difference of opinions; but the way one side is calling the other.

Personally I don't care too much about this topic. I'm just not in contact with many transgender people. Until one converts completely; he is still a he to me.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

I just (totally randomly, I swear) saw this web comic about a gay guy who dates transgendered men.

It's baaaarely safe for work and/or bitter old men.