Gender issue revisited - Buck Angel

[TradeNurkicNow]

I made this point a few different times in earlier posts. You never know until you are really put into the position. It's no different than growing up using the f-word or "dyke" or whatever to describe something or someone you don't like. And then, as you grow up and are exposed to and understand the real meaning of the words, and you have family/friends that are gay, you change. You stop using the words. I didn't stop using the words out of fear of offending anyone. I stopped using those words because I understood their meaning and I found better words to use in their place.

That being said, I get what you, crandc, DC are saying. As I've said before, I donagree with most of it. It's not about being right. It's about having always lived my life from a particular viewpoint. The sight, the existence of specific biological factors..... these are things pretty black-and-white and simple, and that's generally the type of viewpoint I take. The psychological side of things..... it's still scientific, but I don't tend to not venture into this side of things. It doesn't necessarily make me simple-minded that I don't delve deeper, it's just the way I tend to view things. I value the known commodity, the sight, the sound, the touch, the taste more than digging into the chemistry or story (not the word I'm looking for, but it'll do) behind it.

Well put.

Your last points brings up an interesting question for me. I often think about "the way I think" and "what I value," as well as what other people value as well. And I wonder at what point are those things ingrained into your psychology via upbringing and what points can you change. Or, if you even want to change them. Something I often take for granted is that since I am always trying to better my worldview and shape it to be as "best" as it can be (whatever that means), that so must everyone else, right? Maybe some people feel they have it all figured out. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. But, it's not really my place to say if they do or not.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

hoojacks, it sounds to me like you didn't actually change your opinion.. you just decided to ignore it. Which is pretty much what I do anyways.

I'm not concerned with proving anyone wrong or myself right about this. For most of the people with your opinion, that seems to be the only concern, and attacks, not answers or questions, are the main weapons.

I'd like to thank you though, you've already helped some of my views change a little bit. Tolerance is good.

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Yeah, I guess you could say I ignored my opinion, but really, it wasn't actually an opinion. It was a gut feeling.

What really changed is my focus. After traveling and having my mind blown by the variety of life, I kind of stopped taking into account "absolute truths" about most everything. Everything got super fuzzy and I started living in the grey areas. And so, when it came to what I thought about something already kind of fuzzy, like self-identification, it just made sense that there are so many subjective factors involved, there's no way of knowing for sure. No absolute truth.

Sure, there is biology, but who cares? I pretty much view it the same as I view race: it is a biological factor that society affixes often incorrect attributes to. I'm white. Does that mean I like country music? Of course not. I'm a man. Does that mean I shouldn't like weaving tapestries? Apparently. But fuck it. I do anyway.

But seriously, fuck country music.

 

[magnifier661]

Looks like giant is mopping up in here

 

[magnifier661]

Yeah, I guess you could say I ignored my opinion, but really, it wasn't actually an opinion. It was a gut feeling.

What really changed is my focus. After traveling and having my mind blown by the variety of life, I kind of stopped taking into account "absolute truths" about most everything. Everything got super fuzzy and I started living in the grey areas. And so, when it came to what I thought about something already kind of fuzzy, like self-identification, it just made sense that there are so many subjective factors involved, there's no way of knowing for sure. No absolute truth.

Sure, there is biology, but who cares? I pretty much view it the same as I view race: it is a biological factor that society affixes often incorrect attributes to. I'm white. Does that mean I like country music? Of course not. I'm a man. Does that mean I shouldn't like weaving tapestries? Apparently. But fuck it. I do anyway.

But seriously, fuck country music.

^^^^^ closet country gender

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Well put.

Your last points brings up an interesting question for me. I often think about "the way I think" and "what I value," as well as what other people value as well. And I wonder at what point are those things ingrained into your psychology via upbringing and what points can you change. Or, if you even want to change them. Something I often take for granted is that since I am always trying to better my worldview and shape it to be as "best" as it can be (whatever that means), that so must everyone else, right? Maybe some people feel they have it all figured out. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. But, it's not really my place to say if they do or not.

Agreed. And that's why I think as long as you, at minimum, respect all others, WTF else really matters? I'd like to think we can all learn love, value, AND respect all others, but as long as we respect and learn from one-another, that's a good start. And it'd make for a pretty solid place.

By the way, don't know how you made sense of my point when I said, "As I've said before, I donagree with most of it." I initially had "I don't disagree with most of it," then meant to change it to the positive, "I do agree". The "donagree" makes it seem like I was trying to say "I don't agree," but I'm assuming given my prior posts on the subject, you knew I was trying to say I agree.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Yeah, I guess you could say I ignored my opinion, but really, it wasn't actually an opinion. It was a gut feeling.

What really changed is my focus. After traveling and having my mind blown by the variety of life, I kind of stopped taking into account "absolute truths" about most everything. Everything got super fuzzy and I started living in the grey areas. And so, when it came to what I thought about something already kind of fuzzy, like self-identification, it just made sense that there are so many subjective factors involved, there's no way of knowing for sure. No absolute truth.

Sure, there is biology, but who cares? I pretty much view it the same as I view race: it is a biological factor that society affixes often incorrect attributes to. I'm white. Does that mean I like country music? Of course not. I'm a man. Does that mean I shouldn't like weaving tapestries? Apparently. But fuck it. I do anyway.

But seriously, fuck country music.

Here, here!

 

[VanillaGorilla]

I think that calling a man who does "traditionally female" things a woman is sexist. It implies that people can't be different or unique from the label they are given, without changing the label and I think that's wrong. If that's what they want to be called, fine, but I won't feel good about it. I'll still feel sexist. People should be able to do whatever they want without being labeled as something they're not (biologically). If that makes me a bigot to some people, I don't see it, but whatever. I'm not harming anyone and no one is harming me.


Sent from my banana using Tapatalk 4

 

[Denny Crane]

Yes, Neo-Nazi's use illogical biology to conclude certain things that are not clearly connected. The biology in this thread is talking about known sexual reproductive organs. We're not making conclusions. We're simply saying biological sex is a boy has a penis, a girl has a vagina...... this isn't rooted in hate. This is rooted in science - GASP! Which, science by the way, you have used to defend your point on gender/psychological sex. You're comparing a group's illogical conclusions ultimately founded in hate (NOT IN BIOLOGY - they may use poor biology to defend their views, but their views are founded in HATE, NOT BIOLOGY). My VIEWS (yes, plural) are founded in biology, as well as psychology. There's no hate here. As I said earlier, my viewpoints could easily be described as more open-minded than yours. Which, ultimately, is not typical of a bigot, or someone full of hate. It's more closely used to describe someone shut to all but one viewpoint.

You relayed your Neo-Nazi comparison like you were comparing it to us on this board. I'm not going to shift arguments/debates and continue this thread based upon how stupid your post/comparison was. I don't need to debate it with you - there's really no debate. It was in excess, and it was dumb.

Why is their logic about biology illogical? I know yours is for exactly the same reason.

If you don't like the neo Nazi example, then use the Eugenics movement as one example.

Or the Russians banning all things gay.

Or ultra conservative islamic societies making their women and girls wear burkas.

What you think of my example? Ignorance on your part.

 

[Denny Crane]

Yeah, I guess you could say I ignored my opinion, but really, it wasn't actually an opinion. It was a gut feeling.

What really changed is my focus. After traveling and having my mind blown by the variety of life, I kind of stopped taking into account "absolute truths" about most everything. Everything got super fuzzy and I started living in the grey areas. And so, when it came to what I thought about something already kind of fuzzy, like self-identification, it just made sense that there are so many subjective factors involved, there's no way of knowing for sure. No absolute truth.

Sure, there is biology, but who cares? I pretty much view it the same as I view race: it is a biological factor that society affixes often incorrect attributes to. I'm white. Does that mean I like country music? Of course not. I'm a man. Does that mean I shouldn't like weaving tapestries? Apparently. But fuck it. I do anyway.

But seriously, fuck country music.

Mopping up.

+1

There is ultimately the question of morality, which determines right vs. wrong. It's not a religious thing.

Our morality happens to come from thousands of years of Libertarian principles that arose from how people were treated up to (and since) the Magna Carta.

The right to life, liberty, and to pursue happiness (or property).

People should be free to do what they want and say what they want, for the most part. Heck, nazis can march in Skokie (google that for some "fun").

Free speech ends when it incites violence, intimidates others, etc. There you have victims of free speech (fire in a crowded theater, the slower people get trampled).

Posting "she's really a he" on a message board, saying it to your friends, etc., causes real harm. Tolerating the intolerance is how that homecoming queen got death threats on her Facebook page and the like.

People who recently posted in this thread said "she had it coming because of (insert a bullshit reason)." "She shouldn't go X place because she'll get beat up, it's only common sense. " And "I wouldn't raise a hand to help that person if she was getting beaten up." That sort of thing.

Yeah, right.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Why is their logic about biology illogical? I know yours is for exactly the same reason.

If you don't like the neo Nazi example, then use the Eugenics movement as one example.

Or the Russians banning all things gay.

Or ultra conservative islamic societies making their women and girls wear burkas.

What you think of my example? Ignorance on your part.

You are out of your mind sometimes.

Are the people forcing this issue down peoples throats comparable to Nazis, Jehovah's Witnesses, child sex predators, animal killers . . .

I've got other examples

 

[The_Lillard_King]

So as I become older, I tend to become more republican in thought . . . must mean republicans are right.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Why is their logic about biology illogical? I know yours is for exactly the same reason.

If you don't like the neo Nazi example, then use the Eugenics movement as one example.

Or the Russians banning all things gay.

Or ultra conservative islamic societies making their women and girls wear burkas.

What you think of my example? Ignorance on your part.

Dumbest post of the year. Congrats, Denny. I see why people like PapaG don't care if they get banned. Cuz they don't care to post on a board and line the pockets of someone who posts such idiotic things such as your recent rash of posts. I'd argue that you're showing plenty of ignorance on your part (well, I don't really have to argue - you have done the work for me in your posts).

He'll come back when he realizes there is nowhere else to talk Blazers (and when he's allowed). Which is really the only reason any of us are here.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

You are out of your mind sometimes.

Are the people forcing this issue down peoples throats comparable to Nazis, Jehovah's Witnesses, child sex predators, animal killers . . .

I've got other examples

Well, yes, the "people" are, if you mean DC and crandc (though she gave up).

 

[Denny Crane]

Dumbest post of the year. Congrats, Denny. I see why people like PapaG don't care if they get banned. Cuz they don't care to post on a board and line the pockets of someone who posts such idiotic things such as your recent rash of posts. I'd argue that you're showing plenty of ignorance on your part (well, I don't really have to argue - you have done the work for me in your posts).

He'll come back when he realizes there is nowhere else to talk Blazers (and when he's allowed). Which is really the only reason any of us are here.

Nazis are all about biology and genetics. Your argument is solely based upon biology and genetics.

Sorry you don't get the similarity, but it's plain as day.

 

[magnifier661]

So as I become older, I tend to become more republican in thought . . . must mean republicans are right.

Just means you are getting smarter

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Nazis are all about biology and genetics. Your argument is solely based upon biology and genetics.

Sorry you don't get the similarity, but it's plain as day.

Yawn. So now we're going from Neo-Nazi's to just plain ol' Nazi's?

You're right, Denny. They're spot-on. I mean, I was using biology to simply explain that a penis is a male sexual reproductive organ, while a vagina is a female sexual reproductive organ. There was no form of judgment made, but I simply used a biological descriptor to identify a characteristic. An observation of a characteristic.

I missed the part where I then took that descriptor, made judgment, used it to determine superiority, and then mass murdered 11 million people.

Hot damn. I apologize for being an missing that similarity and sweeping it under the rug. How could I be so oblivious?

 

[magnifier661]

Mopping up.

+1

There is ultimately the question of morality, which determines right vs. wrong. It's not a religious thing.

Our morality happens to come from thousands of years of Libertarian principles that arose from how people were treated up to (and since) the Magna Carta.

The right to life, liberty, and to pursue happiness (or property).

People should be free to do what they want and say what they want, for the most part. Heck, nazis can march in Skokie (google that for some "fun").

Free speech ends when it incites violence, intimidates others, etc. There you have victims of free speech (fire in a crowded theater, the slower people get trampled).

Posting "she's really a he" on a message board, saying it to your friends, etc., causes real harm. Tolerating the intolerance is how that homecoming queen got death threats on her Facebook page and the like.

People who recently posted in this thread said "she had it coming because of (insert a bullshit reason)." "She shouldn't go X place because she'll get beat up, it's only common sense. " And "I wouldn't raise a hand to help that person if she was getting beaten up." That sort of thing.

Yeah, right.

Who posted she had it coming? I didn't read any of that. Now using strawman?

Not swayed

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

It's pretty easy to argue for your point when your arguments keep shifting. You've done a good job creating some greasy posts.

 

[magnifier661]

You are out of your mind sometimes.

Are the people forcing this issue down peoples throats comparable to Nazis, Jehovah's Witnesses, child sex predators, animal killers . . .

I've got other examples

Denny would think so. But then again, Denny is hyperbole king

 

[magnifier661]

It's pretty easy to argue for your point when your arguments keep shifting. You've done a good job creating some greasy posts.

See what shit I have to deal with? He shotguns multiple views and pov; that it's hard to keep up with the actual point.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Hey, at least you're not being compared to a murdered of millions. And I thought I was one of the more open, tolerant, respectful people in this entire thread questioning his singular POV?

 

[magnifier661]

Hey, at least you're not being compared to a murdered of millions. And I thought I was one of the more open, tolerant, respectful people in this entire thread questioning his singular POV?

Lmao true!

 

[Denny Crane]

Yawn. So now we're going from Neo-Nazi's to just plain ol' Nazi's?

You're right, Denny. They're spot-on. I mean, I was using biology to simply explain that a penis is a male sexual reproductive organ, while a vagina is a female sexual reproductive organ. There was no form of judgment made, but I simply used a biological descriptor to identify a characteristic. An observation of a characteristic.

I missed the part where I then took that descriptor, made judgment, used it to determine superiority, and then mass murdered 11 million people.

Hot damn. I apologize for being an missing that similarity and sweeping it under the rug. How could I be so oblivious?

You made a judgment that the woman isn't a woman.

Nazis made judgment that Jews, because of their genes, aren't human.

I did not call you a Nazi. You say it's ok to have a differing opinion, etc, and not be wrong I am asking where YOU draw the line. The neo nazis have a differing opinion. I am not shifting anything here, just asking if their differing opinion is wrong?

The next question is if theirs is wrong, why can't yours be?

 

[magnifier661]

You made a judgment that the woman isn't a woman.

Nazis made judgment that Jews, because of their genes, aren't human.

Are you serious? They believed they were human. They thought the nazis were the best human.

This is why people get so frustrated with you. You spin, spin, spin and use little plays on words to give you outs.

I did not call you a Nazi. You say it's ok to have a differing opinion, etc, and not be wrong I am asking where YOU draw the line. The neo nazis have a differing opinion. I am not shifting anything here, just asking if their differing opinion is wrong?

The next question is if theirs is wrong, why can't yours be?

You are trying to imply that giant is acting like a nazi because he brought up a penis vs vagina? Give me a fucking break. The nazis used entire groups with penis and vaginas and said yet were inferior. Giant never said transgendered peeps are lower beings because they want to be a girl; even though they have a penis?

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

You made a judgment that the woman isn't a woman.

Nazis made judgment that Jews, because of their genes, aren't human.

I did not call you a Nazi. You say it's ok to have a differing opinion, etc, and not be wrong I am asking where YOU draw the line. The neo nazis have a differing opinion. I am not shifting anything here, just asking if their differing opinion is wrong?

The next question is if theirs is wrong, why can't yours be?

I made no judgment, but please do tell.

I used science. I don't even recall directly talking about some woman, other than biologically. I used basic, widely-accepted science that says, biologically, if you are born with a penis, you are a boy/man; if you are born with a vagina, you are a girl/woman. I USED SCIENCE. Just as you did to defend the stance of gender or psychological sex. These are two different concepts. You can be a boy and be a female under these two concepts. To use the homecoming queen, since this was a hot topic earlier, though many of the comments were gross, the HC queen is a boy, biologically. The HC queen is a female, psychologically. The words, biologically, don't really matter. If you want to call a penis an opus, and a boy a "Saskatoon", then the HC queen is a "Saskatoon" biologically and a female psychologically. The words are just words, mere descriptors.

Do yourself (and all of us) a favor and google the "definition of biological sex". Don't just look for a single answer. Review several of them.

The difference between my view and yours, Denny, is that I'm not telling you that you're wrong. And I'm not saying I'm right. My view is far more open than yours. It accounts for natural life, biology, and it accounts for psychology. It's looking at a much broader picture (or multiple pictures) than you're point of view.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

And you didn't call me a Nazi. But comparing me to them in my way of thinking is pretty close.

You know the saying, "When you point a finger at someone, you've got........."

 

[Denny Crane]

I imply no such thing.

I mentioned eugenics, too. That wasn't about mass murder, but making biological judgments about who should procreate.

I mentioned the Russians banning homosexuality. Also a biological judgment.

I mentioned ultra conservative Islamic societies forcing biologically selected people (women) to wear burkas.

But yeah, you win.

 

[Denny Crane]

And you didn't call me a Nazi. But comparing me to them in my way of thinking is pretty close.

You know the saying, "When you point a finger at someone, you've got........."

I've explained it twice. Three times now.

Where do YOU draw the line?

Are the nazis' biologically based opinions right, wrong, tolerable, or you tell me?

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Are you serious? They believed they were human. They thought the nazis were the best human.

This is why people get so frustrated with you. You spin, spin, spin and use little plays on words to give you outs.



You are trying to imply that giant is acting like a nazi because he brought up a penis vs vagina? Give me a fucking break. The nazis used entire groups with penis and vaginas and said yet were inferior. Giant never said transgendered peeps are lower beings because they want to be a girl; even though they have a penis?

Like I said.... greasy arguments. His retorts remind me a chameleon. Same framework, so they never really evolve, but they merely change colors with each moment and convenience to avoid their opponent.

 

[Denny Crane]

You won't answer because you don't like the answer.

Focused like a laser beam.