Greg Oden: "I'm on schedule to heal."

[BBert]

I just don't see this, in bold, at all. He's doing what he needs to do to rehab. Should he stress over his injuries to a point it's a problem? No. People seem to be so judging and have such knowledge of how he feels and what he's doing. Unless you are with him all the time you have no idea. Before he worked out so much with weights the team had to slow him down not wanting him to gain to much weight up top. That doesn't sound lazy. I like him sounding happy, to me that means he's feeling good and is making good progress, but everyone seems to know what he should be doing that he isn't while no one on this board has much information on what he's doing rehab or what his work habits are. Just what is reported and most is just people on boards like this.

Repped.

 

[espn_hall_of_famer]

I just don't see this, in bold, at all. He's doing what he needs to do to rehab. Should he stress over his injuries to a point it's a problem? No. People seem to be so judging and have such knowledge of how he feels and what he's doing. Unless you are with him all the time you have no idea. Before he worked out so much with weights the team had to slow him down not wanting him to gain to much weight up top. That doesn't sound lazy. I like him sounding happy, to me that means he's feeling good and is making good progress, but everyone seems to know what he should be doing that he isn't while no one on this board has much information on what he's doing rehab or what his work habits are. Just what is reported and most is just people on boards like this.

Good take.

While I'm as big a fan as any, I too would be ready to give up on him if he suddenly went out there and 10 games into the season has his ACL give out and require season-ending surgery. There is a point. Right now we have the extreme idiots that start quoting injuries that every player gets on a near weekly basis (quoting foot injuries or viruses or tonsils or whatever else they can name) and the reality we've got a kid that had hand injury in high school and two bone breaks in the pros that rose to the level of "major" in his career since he was playing competitive ball since he was a grade school kid. So this no reason to "give up", but definitely it becomes something to think about if he goes 3 for 3 in his NBA career.

But I like what I see now. An Oden that doesn't stay in Portland going out to the lure of the clubs and parties that might set him back. He doesn't try and tell the medical staff he's back to 100% and goes out to 24-hour fitness playing pickup games. He goes back to Indiana and totally rehabbed with the "yes sir / no sir" mantra to our medical staff in order to ensure his patella is 110% of what it was previously. And he sticks to this "babied" schedule they have him on while he's obviously 100% out there working out and bowling with no signs that any injuries are lingering.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Plan B is to give up on him, that is, to trade him. Or to lowball his next contract and let him walk. If he goes down again this season, many of us will advocate Plan B.

Personally, I'm on the fence, ready to jump if his health fails us again this season. I don't like his lazy, business-as-usual, devil-may-care attitude at this crucial juncture of his failing career. He should be the most worried among us, not the least.

In arguing this, there are 2 terms everyone needs to keep in mind: "lock-out" and "hard cap".

Stern wants to eliminate the concept of "Bird rights". If he gets his way, and he always has so far, it will no longer be a matter saying "who cares if we are over the cap, as long as PA is willing to pay the luxury tax?" That will no longer be an option. Signing Oden to a fat extension could have the pratical effect of ending any chance of re-signing Batum and Bayless.(and others, down the road)

To be blunt, it seems like some people ignore/forget this part of the equation.

 

[Jayps15]

In arguing this, there are 2 terms everyone needs to keep in mind: "lock-out" and "hard cap".

Stern wants to eliminate the concept of "Bird rights". If he gets his way, and he always has so far, it will no longer be a matter saying "who cares if we are over the cap, as long as PA is willing to pay the luxury tax?" That will no longer be an option. Signing Oden to a fat extension could have the pratical effect of ending any chance of re-signing Batum and Bayless.(and others, down the road)

To be blunt, it seems like some people ignore/forget this part of the equation.

Any realistic chance of a hard cap coming would come with the caveat of any existing contracts being grandfathered in, the Lakers and the Heat both have so much money tied up in 3-4 players they wouldn't be able to field full and competitive rosters if a hardcap was put in place without any leeway being put into place for existing contracts, and would Stern really fuck over the Lakers and the new look Heat?

 

[julius]

Any realistic chance of a hard cap coming would come with the caveat of any existing contracts being grandfathered in, the Lakers and the Heat both have so much money tied up in 3-4 players they wouldn't be able to field full and competitive rosters if a hardcap was put in place without any leeway being put into place for existing contracts, and would Stern really fuck over the Lakers and the new look Heat?

If he did, LONG LIVE DAVID STERN!!!!

 

[Idog1976]

Did you actually READ my post? I expressly said it wasn't Oden's fault, and that his injuries were legit.

I don't "hate" Oden - hells bells, I don't even know the kid! I just want the team brain trust to stop pining for what Oden should have been, and come up with plan "B".

I said in the follow up post that I thought you were fairly reasonable among the more vocal Oden critics.

PapaG really chaffed my hide with his idiotic apologist remark which in every recent usage of the word that I've read it has the connotation of those who are apologizing for horrific actions by individuals, corporations or governments. Oden would have to do something substantial that is wrong before I'm going to be apologizing for him.

The thinly veiled hate of Oden remark was fwiw, directed at PapaG and BlazerMulletBrain.

So what is your plan B out of curiosity not resign Oden? Lowball him?

 

[mook]

In arguing this, there are 2 terms everyone needs to keep in mind: "lock-out" and "hard cap".

Stern wants to eliminate the concept of "Bird rights". If he gets his way, and he always has so far, it will no longer be a matter saying "who cares if we are over the cap, as long as PA is willing to pay the luxury tax?" That will no longer be an option. Signing Oden to a fat extension could have the pratical effect of ending any chance of re-signing Batum and Bayless.(and others, down the road)

To be blunt, it seems like some people ignore/forget this part of the equation.

I find it hard to believe we'll completely do away with Bird rights. Even Stern realizes that it's critical to the NBA's success that each franchise develops a group of players that fans can become attached to over the years.

The end goal is to reduce player salaries so the owners make more, right? So why not just reduce the size and duration of maximum contracts?

After all, most players won't give a crap because they aren't getting those contracts anyway. The owners will be happy because right now on many teams half of the salary goes to a couple of players.

So you'd have a few dozen really pissed off (and admittedly highly visible) players. But everybody else would be happy. Those guys would bitch to the media, but is anybody really going to cry because LeBron's next contract is $60 million instead of $120 million (or whatever)?

 

[oldmangrouch]

I said in the follow up post that I thought you were fairly reasonable among the more vocal Oden critics.

PapaG really chaffed my hide with his idiotic apologist remark which in every recent usage of the word that I've read it has the connotation of those who are apologizing for horrific actions by individuals, corporations or governments. Oden would have to do something substantial that is wrong before I'm going to be apologizing for him.

The thinly veiled hate of Oden remark was fwiw, directed at PapaG and BlazerMulletBrain.

So what is your plan B out of curiosity not resign Oden? Lowball him?

Gotcha. I've been flamed enough recently, I am getting a tad thin-skinned. No offense intended.

As for my "Plan B."

Plan B1: If a guy like CP3 actually hits the market, be willing to put Oden on the table. There will always be GMs/coaches who think they can catch lightening in a bottle. Look at how long Kemp kept finding teams to take a chance on him.

Plan B2: This is based on the assumption that the owners are determined to get a significant reduction in salaries. If that happens, at least half the teams in the league will be in dire straits. The teams that have cap space will be in an excellent position to exploit the turmoil, and vulture good players for pennies on the (current) dollar.

Plan B2 would have required 3 things. First, don't use the MLE (too late). Second, tell Oden no extension until the new CBA is signed. Third, be willing to deal anybody but Roy (our real star) and Batum (the most cost-effective contract) for capspace. Since Joel is expiring anyway, that would mean LMA, Camby, and Miller. (and now Matthews)

Go ahead - roast away!

 

[BGrantFan]

I said in the follow up post that I thought you were fairly reasonable among the more vocal Oden critics.

BGrantfan really chaffed my hide with his idiotic apologist remark which in every recent usage of the word that I've read it has the connotation of those who are apologizing for horrific actions by individuals, corporations or governments. Oden would have to do something substantial that is wrong before I'm going to be apologizing for him.

Your own ignorance about the application and meaning of the word "apologist" is my fault. Mmmkay

The thinly veiled hate of Oden remark was fwiw, directed at BGrantfan and BlazerMulletBrain.

I'm curious how me posting that ESPN cover in response to you blaming "the front office" and "the media" for elevating fan expectations of Oden shows any "hate" toward Oden. That cover with him talking about 15 titles is a fact.

You seem all over the map lately, and it appears that you are highly emotional for no reason. You made a claim about expectations. I posted a reply that I feel illustrates how Greg help feed the hype surrounding him.

Now, how is that my fault?

 

[Blazer_Mullet_Man]

It's not, Grantfan. People read what they want, then assume at will. I've been one of those "idiots" who, from pre-draft, was critical of Oden. I've been blasted since. Accordingly, should I list, in detailed fact, ALL his recent injuries and surgeries (including tonsils), I am suddenly attacked for being an "idiot" because I brought up some minor detail that doesn't apply to basketball. I'm also called hateful, for being fact-ful. Interesting. I specifically posted that no one hopes I am wrong more than I do, and I think Greg is a good guy (from what I read).

But, I'm perfectly willing to listen and respond in a non-threatening and non-personal way to others opinions (while sharing mine, and yes, that cover does make me ill). However, when I say that Oden will NEVER be the player that the fans, franchise and Oden hoped for, and I doubt he'll even play in 20 games this season - the response is emotional, attacking and usually juvenile. It is what it is. Blazer fans simply can't stomach that Oden is broken (yes, we already defined "broken").

*disclaimer: if I'm called out for joking on a personal level with Beaver fans (aka sleezer fans), I joke, because I love. I'm a Duck at heart but have had several close friends play for both programs and have spent many gamedays at each venue and contributed in different ways to both programs (including having all-access, sideline passes).

 

[Shooter]

Probably when there's actual proof that plan "A" is bad. You know, that the injuries are connected, show a pattern, and is something he'll have to worry about his whole career.

Uh, I think we're past that point already. There is a HUGE shadow over Oden's career, and everybody knows it. You can argue about the injuries all being different, and unrelated, but the fact is Oden simply can't stay healthy.

Just a question (and I don't know the answer), has any player in the history of the NBA gone on to have a successful career after starting off the way Oden has? I can't remember anyone, but maybe I've forgotten.

 

[Boise Blazer]

Uh, I think we're past that point already. There is a HUGE shadow over Oden's career, and everybody knows it. You can argue about the injuries all being different, and unrelated, but the fact is Oden simply can't stay healthy.

Just a question (and I don't know the answer), has any player in the history of the NBA gone on to have a successful career after starting off the way Oden has? I can't remember anyone, but maybe I've forgotten.

Sometimes people use Zydrunas Ilgauskas as an example of starting with injuries and going on to be successful. He certainly isnt a generational center but he has had a "successful" career.

 

[Blazer_Mullet_Man]

Correct me if I'm wrong (because I probably am) but I see the primary difference between Ilgauskas and Oden in that Ilgauskas played professional level basketball, prior to coming to the NBA and was rather successful. Meaning, he was a proven player who handled the rigors pro seasons...

"Ilgauskas made his pro debut in his hometown of Kaunas with the Atletas Basketball Club. He averaged 20.3 points, 12.8 rebounds and 2.8 blocks."

I believe he was drafted in 96, and played in 82 games in 97-98 - went down with injuries, missing nearly all of 98-99, missed most of 99-00 but returned for 62 games the following year.

So, I see the fundamental difference between the two in that Il had already proved he could maintain his body through multiple seasons.... Oden, not so much.

I also think that for every example of Il (which have glaring differences w/ Oden) there are ten other players who could be used as examples of disappointment.

JMHO

 

[Shooter]

I also think that for every example of Il (which have glaring differences w/ Oden) there are ten other players who could be used as examples of disappointment.

Yep. Unfortunately, the future doesn't look great for Oden. I hope I'm wrong, of course, but it's crazy to point to Ilgauskus as some kind of positive example.

 

[espn_hall_of_famer]

Sometimes people use Zydrunas Ilgauskas as an example of starting with injuries and going on to be successful. He certainly isnt a generational center but he has had a "successful" career.

Better example is probably Amare. Oden and Amare have had similar injuries in the fact that they weren't soft tissue injuries (like Bynum) and more likely to heal back to 100% and not cause for future concern. Although Amare had a relatively healthy rookie season, his next three seasons after that he missed 44% of his games over the next three years. Oden has only missed 50% of his games since he officially started his NBA rookie season. So those two are a fairly close comparison injury-wise and time missed before they had an opportunity to start their careers.

 

[BGrantFan]

Better example is probably Amare. Oden and Amare have had similar injuries in the fact that they weren't soft tissue injuries (like Bynum) and more likely to heal back to 100% and not cause for future concern. Although Amare had a relatively healthy rookie season, his next three seasons after that he missed 44% of his games over the next three years. Oden has only missed 50% of his games since he officially started his NBA rookie season. So those two are a fairly close comparison injury-wise and time missed before they had an opportunity to start their careers.

LOL

Classic. Or, he's missed 67% of his games since he started his rookie contract. He also only missed 25% of his games in his "rookie" season.

What this matters, I have no fucking clue.

 

[julius]

LOL

Classic. Or, he's missed 67% of his games since he started his rookie contract. He also only missed 25% of his games in his "rookie" season.

What this matters, I have no fucking clue.

Thanks Captain Obvious.

 

[Blazer_Mullet_Man]

Oden has only missed 50% of his games since he officially started his NBA rookie season

LOL! I guess one could look at it that way, or one could say he only played in 21 games last season or 80 some games since coming into the league - three years ago.

I thought you were a math major? If true, you know about like variables - in that, you gave Oden a free season and didn't grant Amare one. If we're comparing legit numbers and you eliminate the season where Amare was mostly out, he then played in 55, 80 and 82 games. I thought as a math major, numbers only work when comparing like variables? You're not.

Also, you didn't mention the number of injuries involved (aren't you a numbers guy?). Yes, Amar'e had knee cartilage damage that needed microfracture surgery on October 18, 2005. But, yet again, you failed to address the actual number of injuries Oden has suffered compared to Amar'e. In addition, you failed to recognize the importance of HOW the injuries are occurring.

Realistically, and by the numbers, you can't even compare the two. Sorry.

In his rookie season, Stoudemire averaged 13.5 points and 8.8 rebounds per game, with a season high of 38 points, against the Minnesota Timberwolves on December 30, 2002, the highest score by a prep-to-pro player until broken a year later by LeBron James.[citation needed] Stoudemire won the NBA's Rookie of the Year award, beating out Houston Rockets center Yao Ming and Miami Heat forward Caron Butler and becoming the first player drafted out of high school to win the award.

The following season, Stoudemire improved statistically,[7][8] but his team stumbled to a 29–53 record, and point guard Stephon Marbury was traded to the New York Knicks. During the summer of 2004, Stoudemire was selected to play for the United States national team in the 2004 Summer Olympics. However, head coach Larry Brown declined to give him significant playing time[quantify].

During the 2004–05 NBA season, Stoudemire teamed up with point guard Steve Nash to lead the Suns to a 62–20 record. Averaging 26 points per game that year and achieving a new career high of 50 points against the Portland Trail Blazers on January 2, 2005, he was selected to his first National Basketball Association All-Star Game as a reserve forward. In the Western Conference Finals against the San Antonio Spurs, Stoudemire performed magnificently, averaging 37 points per game, but the Suns lost in 5 games.

During the 2005–06 NBA pre-season, knee cartilage damage was discovered and Stoudemire underwent microfracture surgery on October 18, 2005. Initially, the Suns thought he would return by mid-February,[9] but his rehab took longer than expected. Stoudemire, however, made an attempt to return but did not play well, going scoreless against the New Jersey Nets on March 27, 2006. On March 28 it was announced that he would likely miss the rest of the regular season due to ongoing stiffness in both knees. His manager stated that the comeback happened a little too soon, and Stoudemire needed to do more rehab.[10] Stoudemire's rehabilitation, which was led by Suns trainer Aaron Nelson[11] and Dr. Micheal Clark, the president and CEO of the National Academy of Sports Medicine (NASM)[12] went well as he stated during the rehab that he was pretty explosive and he gradually gained his strength back.

Stoudemire attended the 2006 USA Basketball camp in Las Vegas, although he ultimately did not play in the 2006 FIBA World Championship. His athletic trainers stated that he had no swelling since his most recent surgery and his strength and flexibility have been "better than ever: almost like superman".

On February 18, 2007, Stoudemire appeared in the 2007 NBA All-Star Game, his second NBA All-Star Game appearance. He scored 29 points and grabbed 9 rebounds, and came in second in MVP voting to winner Kobe Bryant.[citation needed] He had previously announced that he would make the All Star Game in his first season back after his knee recovered.[citation needed]

2007–08

Stoudemire led the Suns in scoring 25.8 and rebounds 9.1 in the 2007–08 season. He made the 2008 NBA All-Star team and was named to the 2nd team on the All-NBA Team.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amar'e_Stoudemire

 

[oldmangrouch]

I'm curious why some people are so adamant in insisting that there is no "pattern" to Oden's injuries.

1) As a child, he had a severe hip problem that left him with one leg shorter than the other. It doesn't take an MD to see that this could cause unnatural strain on his legs every time he runs the court.

Can I say with 100% certainty this is related to his knee injuries? No....but how can you say with 100% certainty that it isn't?

2) Oden injuries his knee in a collision. The team admits there are bone chips in the knee, and that his recovery takes longer than originally predicted....but they forego surgery. Less than a year later, he suffers catastrophic failure to the same knee.

Again, you can't say with 100% certainty that the first injury contributed to the second....but how can you claim absolute certainty that it did not?

Is it really so hard to understand that some of us don't accept bad luck, coincidence, or voodoo curses as an explanation?

 

[BGrantFan]

Thanks Captain Obvious.

You're welcome Admiral Add-Nothing

 

[julius]

You're welcome Admiral Add-Nothing

That's SIR Admiral Add-Nothing to you!

 

[julius]

I'm curious why some people are so adamant in insisting that there is no "pattern" to Oden's injuries.

1) As a child, he had a severe hip problem that left him with one leg shorter than the other. It doesn't take an MD to see that this could cause unnatural strain on his legs every time he runs the court.

How does that mean his MF injury is related to the injury to his other knee?

2) Oden injuries his knee in a collision. The team admits there are bone chips in the knee, and that his recovery takes longer than originally predicted....but they forego surgery. Less than a year later, he suffers catastrophic failure to the same knee.

I don't recall hearing anyone has said that it didn't heal.

He didn't actually have "catastrophic failure" to the knee. He broke his kneecap.

Again, you can't say with 100% certainty that the first injury contributed to the second....but how can you claim absolute certainty that it did not?

Is it really so hard to understand that some of us don't accept bad luck, coincidence, or voodoo curses as an explanation?

Yes, one leg is shorter than the other and that probably has thrown his balance off. This would seem to suggest that it's actually more of an issue with correcting his balance and how he stands/runs/jumps, more than an internal, repeatable injury issue.

That would seem to suggest it's fixable, vs a genetic issue that he'll just have to walk on egg shells for the rest of his life.

 

[oldmangrouch]

How does that mean his MF injury is related to the injury to his other knee?


Yes, one leg is shorter than the other and that probably has thrown his balance off. This would seem to suggest that it's actually more of an issue with correcting his balance and how he stands/runs/jumps, more than an internal, repeatable injury issue.

That would seem to suggest it's fixable, vs a genetic issue that he'll just have to walk on egg shells for the rest of his life.

Your right knee isn't 100%, you try to compensate, and injure the left knee (or an ankle). That type of compensation injuries happen all the time.

As for it being a balance issue - that could be correct. His increased weight could also be a factor. Of course, that also means there is an underlying cause/pattern to the injuries - which was my whole point!

 

[Blazer_Mullet_Man]

Maybe Charles Ingles can make Greg a magic shoe so he can run and jump and dance and play with all the other kids and not be laughed at and everyone will be happy and love one another.

Maybe. Could happen.

 

[julius]

Your right knee isn't 100%, you try to compensate, and injure the left knee (or an ankle). That type of compensation injuries happen all the time.

As for it being a balance issue - that could be correct. His increased weight could also be a factor. Of course, that also means there is an underlying cause/pattern to the injuries - which was my whole point!

Which is what people have long said, and not that it's a pattern that must, will, or has to continue.

So in a way, you could say he's been incredibly unlucky, and hopefully has finally straightened himself out (no pun intended).

 

[anonymous gambler]

May all the naysayers be forcibly moved to Los Angeles. I refuse to be a pessimist and thought Mixum was on vacation!

 

[oldmangrouch]

Which is what people have long said, and not that it's a pattern that must, will, or has to continue.

So in a way, you could say he's been incredibly unlucky, and hopefully has finally straightened himself out (no pun intended).

That's the nuance that gets lost in this debate. There is a difference between saying it *can't* be fixed, and saying it *won't* be fixed until they figure it out and do something about it. I vacilate as to which I think it is. What makes me crazy, and drives me to some of my more strident comments, are the people who assume it will just get better all on its' own, and there is nothing to worry about.

 

[jlprk]

I just talked to the doctors and trainers who have tried everything they know for years. They said to thank this message board for inventing the shorter leg theory. They will get right on it and Oden's problems are over. They can't believe they missed it.

 

[oldmangrouch]

I just talked to the doctors and trainers who have tried everything they know for years. They said to thank this message board for inventing the shorter leg theory. They will get right on it and Oden's problems are over. They can't believe they missed it.

Haha.

What's your theory - cursed by witches?

 

[MickZagger]

LOL

Classic. Or, he's missed 67% of his games since he started his rookie contract. He also only missed 25% of his games in his "rookie" season.

What this matters, I have no fucking clue.

Don't be jealous because his weiner is bigger.