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rasheedfan2005 said:
Yet they mostly chose to steal guns illegally or buy illegal guns with the serial numbers scratched off. Why dont criminals go to the store and buy legally? Oh. Cause it can be traced back to them.
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No shit? Can that be? Holy hell, we need a law to make it illegal to scratch off the number!!! That will err.... Maybe we need a law making it illegal to own a gun with the number scratch off!!!
Yeah! The 2nd doesn't cover that trick!
 
Jade Falcon said:
Agreed.

By the way, have you decided on an AR-15 yet?



Or, if they have a felony record, they'll be denied.



Agreed. It's pointless, as it doesn't catch criminals, nor does it prevent crime.

But try telling that to California.
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Nah im gonna see whats at the shop and let them sell me on something. Probably march-ish. Im like you though. I like the m4 platform and really love the colt. If i can get it under 1k ill probably jump on it.
 
That's what I'm saying, criminals should all have guns too. Shall not be infringed.
 
3RA1N1AC said:
That's what I'm saying, criminals should all have guns too. Shall not be infringed.
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You give up your rights when you break the law. Example cops can search an inmate and an inmates cell when ever the fuck they want. Supreme court has ruled that the 4th ammendment does not apply. So why should the second?
 
rasheedfan2005 said:
You give up your rights when you break the law. Example cops can search an inmate and an inmates cell when ever the fuck they want. Supreme court has ruled that the 4th ammendment does not apply. So why should the second?
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No you don't. You lose your right when you are caught.
 
3RA1N1AC said:
So you are saying that owning a car doesn't make you more likely to get in a car accident?
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It makes me less likely if we assume I would have gotten rides or taken a taxi or uber everywhere I go. But, I get the point. In general having a gun in the house is probably statistically a bad idea. Just like flying is generally safer than driving.

The individual has a lot to do with most of that. Hell, even flying could be impacted by the passengers. Marky Mark would have saved everyone
 
rasheedfan2005 said:
Nah im gonna see whats at the shop and let them sell me on something. Probably march-ish. Im like you though. I like the m4 platform and really love the colt. If i can get it under 1k ill probably jump on it.
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My first choice would definitely be the Colt. My second choice would be either the Ruger AR556, or the Windham Weaponry MPC (also in heavy barreled model HBC):





Both are anywhere from $650 to $750. The Windham is selling on Sportsmans Outdoors for $719. I think the Ruger is around $700, with a $799 MSRP (dealer sets the price though).

Windham Weaponry used to be a part of Bushmaster, before they spun off and started their own company. Which was a very good decision on their part, as I have heard some "eh" comments about Bushmaster in recent years. But everyone seems to love Windham.

The MPC has a 1/9 barrel twist. However, the Ruger has a 1/8 barrel twist, which will stabilize bullets up to 77 grains. Whereas the 1/9 barrel twist will have a sweet spot around 55 to 62 grains.
 
Guns are dangerous if you are texting while shooting. So it is the phones fault, not the user or the gun. When need more laws to ban texting while shooting.
 
Jade Falcon said:
My first choice would definitely be the Colt. My second choice would be either the Ruger AR556, or the Windham Weaponry MPC (also in heavy barreled model HBC):





Both are anywhere from $650 to $750. The Windham is selling on Sportsmans Outdoors for $719. I think the Ruger is around $700, with a $799 MSRP (dealer sets the price though).

Windham Weaponry used to be a part of Bushmaster, before they spun off and started their own company. Which was a very good decision on their part, as I have heard some "eh" comments about Bushmaster in recent years. But everyone seems to love Windham.

The MPC has a 1/9 barrel twist. However, the Ruger has a 1/8 barrel twist, which will stabilize bullets up to 77 grains. Whereas the 1/9 barrel twist will have a sweet spot around 55 to 62 grains.
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Nice links ty. I have to admit i havent researched much yet but my veteran friends said the same thing bushmaster had gone down hill.
 
Jade Falcon said:
My first choice would definitely be the Colt. My second choice would be either the Ruger AR556, or the Windham Weaponry MPC (also in heavy barreled model HBC):





Both are anywhere from $650 to $750. The Windham is selling on Sportsmans Outdoors for $719. I think the Ruger is around $700, with a $799 MSRP (dealer sets the price though).

Windham Weaponry used to be a part of Bushmaster, before they spun off and started their own company. Which was a very good decision on their part, as I have heard some "eh" comments about Bushmaster in recent years. But everyone seems to love Windham.

The MPC has a 1/9 barrel twist. However, the Ruger has a 1/8 barrel twist, which will stabilize bullets up to 77 grains. Whereas the 1/9 barrel twist will have a sweet spot around 55 to 62 grains.
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Serious now, I do not like the 5.56 round for home protection. Plus it is not a good hunting round for anything other than coyotes.

One of the reasons the military went to the 5.56 round over the 7.62 was it was more probable to wound an enemy than kill him. If you kill an enemy in combat, that’s it, he is done. But if you wound an enemy in combat, you will take at least one other solider out of combat, and possible more, to give aid, then remove the wounded from harms way.

Why would you want to use a round designed to wound an intruder? Sure you can hit him multiple times, but I am of the old school, 1 shoot, 1 kill.

They make the AR series in larger calibers, which is what I would have if I bought an AR type weapon for home protection. The 7mm or larger would be a good round for a lot of things, including hunting and home protection.

Just my opinion.
 
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rasheedfan2005 said:
Nice links ty. I have to admit i havent researched much yet but my veteran friends said the same thing bushmaster had gone down hill.
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Yes, because they were bought out by Freedom Group in 2006.

Please, for the love of all that is holy....avoid ANYTHING from Freedom Group. Avoid it like a bad plague.

They utterly destroyed Remington's quality, as well as Marlin (Remington bought Marlin, and then let go all of the folks who worked building lever-action rifles...and replaced them with Remington employees who only built bolt-action rifles. You can guess how that went....).

Freedom Group was run by the same asshole who ran Chrystler into the ground, Robert Nardelli, and he's widely considered to be one of THE worst CEOs in American History.

I'm not sure how their quality has been since he left, but Remington has had horrible success recently with their R-51 pistol. Which is a good indication of what Remington is like today.

But of course, if you ask 9,000 different gun owners, you'll get a bunch that still like them and have had good success with them.

But I'm avoiding anyone associated with Freedom Group for good until they get their shit strait.
 
oldfisherman said:
Serious now, I do not like the .556 round for home protection. Plus it is not a good hunting round for anything other than coyotes.

One of the reasons the military went to the .556 round over the .762 was it was more probable to wound an enemy than kill him. If you kill an enemy in combat, that’s it, he is done. But if you wound an enemy in combat, you will take at least one other solider out of combat, and possible more, to give aid, then remove the wounded from harms way.

Why would you want to use a round designed to wound an intruder? Sure you can hit him multiple times, but I am of the old school, 1 shoot, 1 kill.

They make the AR series in larger calibers, which is what I would have if I bought an AR type weapon for home protection. The 7mm or larger would be a good round for a lot of things, including hunting and home protection.

Just my opinion.
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I assure you that any quality .223 Ammunition from Hornady, Speer, Winchester, etc etc is going to do the job just fine. Same with 5.56. The .223 round has excellent ballistics against 2-legged targets, and has an excellent track record with law enforcement.

Now, I can't speak for the round in over-seas military usage. However, against unarmored opponents here at home, it's an excellent cartridge, and is more than capable of getting the job done. Not to mention there are tons of bullet types and weights to choose from for your desired application.
 
Jade Falcon said:
I assure you that any quality .223 Ammunition from Hornady, Speer, Winchester, etc etc is going to do the job just fine. Same with 5.56. The .223 round has excellent ballistics against 2-legged targets, and has an excellent track record with law enforcement.

Now, I can't speak for the round in over-seas military usage. However, against unarmored opponents here at home, it's an excellent cartridge, and is more than capable of getting the job done. Not to mention there are tons of bullet types and weights to choose from for your desired application.
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Comparing a trained sniper situation to a scared home owner is not realistic. Shot placement has a lot to do with a snipers killing efficiency with the .223. I am talking about stopping power. The .223 is one of the lowest rated rifle rounds for stopping power.

Here is a list Rifle Cartridge Killing Power
formula:
Energy at 100 yards (in foot pounds) x Sectional Density (taken from reloading manuals) x Bullet Frontal Area (in square inches) = Killing Power figure at 100 yards.

.223 WSSM(64 grain at 3600 fps) -10.1
.243 Winchester(100 grain at 2960 fps) -18.1
.243 WSSM(100 grain at 3100 fps) -20.0
.25-06 Remington(120 grain at 2990 fps) -26.5
6.5x55 SE(140 grain at 2700 fps) -30.7
6.5mm Remington Magnum(120 grain at 3210 fps) -30.2
.270 Winchester(130 grain at 3150 fps) -35.0.270 Winchester(150 grain at 2850 fps) -37.4
.270 WSM(140 grain at 3125 fps) -40.1
7mm-08 Remington(140 grain at 2860 fps) -33.6
.280 Remington(140 grain at 3000 fps) -37.1
7mm Remington Magnum(150 grain at 3110 fps) -44.8
.30 Carbine(110 grain at 1990 fps) -7.4
.30-30 Winchester(150 grain at 2390 fps) -22.8
.30-30 Winchester(170 grain at 2200 fps) -25.4
.300 Savage(150 grain at 2630 fps) -30.0
.308 Winchester(150 grain at 2820 fps) -34.7
.308 Winchester(180 grain at 2620 fps) -46.2
.30-06 Springfield(150 grain at 2920 fps) -37.3
.30-06 Springfield(180 grain at 2700 fps) -49.2
.300 WSM(180 grain at 2960 fps) -59.5
.300 Winchester Magnum(180 grain at 2960 fps) -59.5
.300 Weatherby Magnum(180 grain at 3240 fps) -72.8
7.62x39 Soviet(123 grain at 2365 fps) -15.7
.303 British(180 grain at 2460 fps) -40.1
.32 Winchester Special(170 at 2250 fps) -25.4
8x57 JS Mauser(195 grain at 2550 fps) -52.0
325 WSM(200 grain at 2950 fps) -75.6
.338x57 O'Connor(200 grain at 2400 fps) -39.7
.338 Winchester Magnum(250 grain at 2650 fps) -94.8
.357 Magnum (Rifle)(158 grain at 1830 fps) -12.7
.35 Whelen(200 at 2675 fps) -56.4
.350 Remington Magnum(200 grain at 2770 fps) -60.9
.375 H&H Magnum(270 grain at 2690 fps) -106.2
.416 Remington Magnum(400 grain at 2400 fps) -188.4
.44 Remington Magnum (Rifle)(240 grain at 1760 fps) -26.4
.444 Marlin(265 grain at 2325 fps) -63.4
.45-70 Government(300 grain at 1810 fps) -50.1.45-70 Government(405 grain at 1330 fps) -55.0
.450 Marlin(350 grain at 2100 fps) -88.9
.458 Winchester Magnum(500 grain at 2090 fps) -217.3
 
oldfisherman said:
Comparing a trained sniper situation to a scared home owner is not realistic. Shot placement has a lot to do with a snipers killing efficiency with the .223. I am talking about stopping power. The .223 is one of the lowest rated rifle rounds for stopping power.

Here is a list Rifle Cartridge Killing Power
formula:
Energy at 100 yards (in foot pounds) x Sectional Density (taken from reloading manuals) x Bullet Frontal Area (in square inches) = Killing Power figure at 100 yards.

.223 WSSM(64 grain at 3600 fps) -10.1
.243 Winchester(100 grain at 2960 fps) -18.1
.243 WSSM(100 grain at 3100 fps) -20.0
.25-06 Remington(120 grain at 2990 fps) -26.5
6.5x55 SE(140 grain at 2700 fps) -30.7
6.5mm Remington Magnum(120 grain at 3210 fps) -30.2
.270 Winchester(130 grain at 3150 fps) -35.0.270 Winchester(150 grain at 2850 fps) -37.4
.270 WSM(140 grain at 3125 fps) -40.1
7mm-08 Remington(140 grain at 2860 fps) -33.6
.280 Remington(140 grain at 3000 fps) -37.1
7mm Remington Magnum(150 grain at 3110 fps) -44.8
.30 Carbine(110 grain at 1990 fps) -7.4
.30-30 Winchester(150 grain at 2390 fps) -22.8
.30-30 Winchester(170 grain at 2200 fps) -25.4
.300 Savage(150 grain at 2630 fps) -30.0
.308 Winchester(150 grain at 2820 fps) -34.7
.308 Winchester(180 grain at 2620 fps) -46.2
.30-06 Springfield(150 grain at 2920 fps) -37.3
.30-06 Springfield(180 grain at 2700 fps) -49.2
.300 WSM(180 grain at 2960 fps) -59.5
.300 Winchester Magnum(180 grain at 2960 fps) -59.5
.300 Weatherby Magnum(180 grain at 3240 fps) -72.8
7.62x39 Soviet(123 grain at 2365 fps) -15.7
.303 British(180 grain at 2460 fps) -40.1
.32 Winchester Special(170 at 2250 fps) -25.4
8x57 JS Mauser(195 grain at 2550 fps) -52.0
325 WSM(200 grain at 2950 fps) -75.6
.338x57 O'Connor(200 grain at 2400 fps) -39.7
.338 Winchester Magnum(250 grain at 2650 fps) -94.8
.357 Magnum (Rifle)(158 grain at 1830 fps) -12.7
.35 Whelen(200 at 2675 fps) -56.4
.350 Remington Magnum(200 grain at 2770 fps) -60.9
.375 H&H Magnum(270 grain at 2690 fps) -106.2
.416 Remington Magnum(400 grain at 2400 fps) -188.4
.44 Remington Magnum (Rifle)(240 grain at 1760 fps) -26.4
.444 Marlin(265 grain at 2325 fps) -63.4
.45-70 Government(300 grain at 1810 fps) -50.1.45-70 Government(405 grain at 1330 fps) -55.0
.450 Marlin(350 grain at 2100 fps) -88.9
.458 Winchester Magnum(500 grain at 2090 fps) -217.3
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If we're talking about a hunting situation, then yes, you want the appropriate caliber for the task. I wouldn't be taking a .223 with me to hunt Brown Bear, for example.

But against humans, SHOT PLACEMENT, not "stopping power", is what determines a kill. Stopping power is simply a layman term for "dropping a suspect in place". It doesn't actually exist, except in competition, where Taylor Knock Out figures are used to determine a score based on caliber and velocity.

Now, if you want to talk about ft-lbs of energy, even then, the .223 puts out well over 1,000 ft-lbs at the muzzle. Which, inside of 100 yards, is more than enough for full penetration inside an unarmored target.

http://www.ballistics101.com/223_remington.php
Any expert will tell you that "stopping power" is merely a term. Shot placement is what matters. And that applies to handgun calibers as well (the old 9mm, .40, and .45 debate, for example).

A center-of-mass hit from a .223 will do the job better than a .458 Win Mag to the leg.
 
oldfisherman said:
Comparing a trained sniper situation to a scared home owner is not realistic. Shot placement has a lot to do with a snipers killing efficiency with the .223. I am talking about stopping power. The .223 is one of the lowest rated rifle rounds for stopping power.

Here is a list Rifle Cartridge Killing Power
formula:
Energy at 100 yards (in foot pounds) x Sectional Density (taken from reloading manuals) x Bullet Frontal Area (in square inches) = Killing Power figure at 100 yards.

.223 WSSM(64 grain at 3600 fps) -10.1
.243 Winchester(100 grain at 2960 fps) -18.1
.243 WSSM(100 grain at 3100 fps) -20.0
.25-06 Remington(120 grain at 2990 fps) -26.5
6.5x55 SE(140 grain at 2700 fps) -30.7
6.5mm Remington Magnum(120 grain at 3210 fps) -30.2
.270 Winchester(130 grain at 3150 fps) -35.0.270 Winchester(150 grain at 2850 fps) -37.4
.270 WSM(140 grain at 3125 fps) -40.1
7mm-08 Remington(140 grain at 2860 fps) -33.6
.280 Remington(140 grain at 3000 fps) -37.1
7mm Remington Magnum(150 grain at 3110 fps) -44.8
.30 Carbine(110 grain at 1990 fps) -7.4
.30-30 Winchester(150 grain at 2390 fps) -22.8
.30-30 Winchester(170 grain at 2200 fps) -25.4
.300 Savage(150 grain at 2630 fps) -30.0
.308 Winchester(150 grain at 2820 fps) -34.7
.308 Winchester(180 grain at 2620 fps) -46.2
.30-06 Springfield(150 grain at 2920 fps) -37.3
.30-06 Springfield(180 grain at 2700 fps) -49.2
.300 WSM(180 grain at 2960 fps) -59.5
.300 Winchester Magnum(180 grain at 2960 fps) -59.5
.300 Weatherby Magnum(180 grain at 3240 fps) -72.8
7.62x39 Soviet(123 grain at 2365 fps) -15.7
.303 British(180 grain at 2460 fps) -40.1
.32 Winchester Special(170 at 2250 fps) -25.4
8x57 JS Mauser(195 grain at 2550 fps) -52.0
325 WSM(200 grain at 2950 fps) -75.6
.338x57 O'Connor(200 grain at 2400 fps) -39.7
.338 Winchester Magnum(250 grain at 2650 fps) -94.8
.357 Magnum (Rifle)(158 grain at 1830 fps) -12.7
.35 Whelen(200 at 2675 fps) -56.4
.350 Remington Magnum(200 grain at 2770 fps) -60.9
.375 H&H Magnum(270 grain at 2690 fps) -106.2
.416 Remington Magnum(400 grain at 2400 fps) -188.4
.44 Remington Magnum (Rifle)(240 grain at 1760 fps) -26.4
.444 Marlin(265 grain at 2325 fps) -63.4
.45-70 Government(300 grain at 1810 fps) -50.1.45-70 Government(405 grain at 1330 fps) -55.0
.450 Marlin(350 grain at 2100 fps) -88.9
.458 Winchester Magnum(500 grain at 2090 fps) -217.3
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I feel threatened.
 
Jade Falcon said:
If we're talking about a hunting situation, then yes, you want the appropriate caliber for the task. I wouldn't be taking a .223 with me to hunt Brown Bear, for example.

But against humans, SHOT PLACEMENT, not "stopping power", is what determines a kill. Stopping power is simply a layman term for "dropping a suspect in place". It doesn't actually exist, except in competition, where Taylor Knock Out figures are used to determine a score based on caliber and velocity.

Now, if you want to talk about ft-lbs of energy, even then, the .223 puts out well over 1,000 ft-lbs at the muzzle. Which, inside of 100 yards, is more than enough for full penetration inside an unarmored target.

http://www.ballistics101.com/223_remington.php
Any expert will tell you that "stopping power" is merely a term. Shot placement is what matters. And that applies to handgun calibers as well (the old 9mm, .40, and .45 debate, for example).

A center-of-mass hit from a .223 will do the job better than a .458 Win Mag to the leg.
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Actually, for home protection, I am a firm believer in the shotgun. It has just about the same FP of energy at the muzzle as your .223. But I would take my chances with a shotgun every time over a .223.

Another reason I like the shotgun for in home protection is it uses up the energy much faster than a .223. Your .223 has far superior ballistics for longer shots, But there is less chance of the shotgun round going through a wall vs .223, and accidentally hitting an innocent bystander.
 
oldfisherman said:
Actually, for home protection, I am a firm believer in the shotgun. It has just about the same FP of energy at the muzzle as your .223. But I would take my chances with a shotgun every time over a .223.

Another reason I like the shotgun for in home protection is it uses up the energy much faster than a .223. Your .223 has far superior ballistics for longer shots, But there is less chance of the shotgun round going through a wall vs .223, and accidentally hitting an innocent bystander.
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I like the shotgun as well. When I get the money, my next purchase will most likely be a Mossberg 590A1.

In my opinion, either of these long guns would be sufficient for home defense.
 
Jade Falcon said:
I like the shotgun as well. When I get the money, my next purchase will most likely be a Mossberg 590A1.

In my opinion, either of these long guns would be sufficient for home defense.
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I have the Mossberg 500 with interchangeable barrels. One barrel is for home protection, and the other for bird hunting.

I like my weapons to be able to cover several positions, the same way I like my basketball players.

I would love to own the 590A1, nice shotgun, and an excellent home protection weapon.
 
oldfisherman said:
.223 WSSM(64 grain at 3600 fps) -10.1
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oldfisherman said:
.357 Magnum (Rifle)(158 grain at 1830 fps) -12.7
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oldfisherman said:
.270 Winchester(130 grain at 3150 fps) -35.0
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I sort of think of the .223 as support weapon, good for the guys that help but don't necessary shoot all that well.
Mine is the Ruger Mini 14.

I hear yeah with the shot gun. Mine is Mossberg 12 magnum with 24' slug barrel. Usually loaded with 00 Buck Shot.

But my handy tool is the 357. Magnum Carbine. Lever action knock off of the old Winchester model 92. Holds
eleven rounds of .357 or 13 .38 special. I loaded the .357 rounds for this with Win 296 powder pushing 125 jacketed Hollow points. I think the hitting power is a little better than shown above, with a velocity of about 2300 feet per second. My close quarters boat gun. No testing the hand gun laws with this way.

The .270 Winchester is a long time favorite, maybe even a sniper rifle. I first acquired mine, when I was aboard Ship. It was sent to me later after I was discharged.

Have had the model 99 lever action Savage .308 even longer. Well there are more but enough musing.
 
MarAzul said:
I hear that. I guess killing stuff loses it's appeal when your eating well enough. Never did look on it as a sport.
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my dad started me out with one bullet until I put food on the table...then I'd get another...you learn to hunt
 
I had a Winchester over under 410/22 I used for small game and quail...that was my most successful weapon for Sunday dinners
 
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