OT Healthcare

[Phatguysrule]

and a work out takes about half an hour. Your point? Johnnys was pretty clear. Are you advocating its fine for people let their health go to shit because its harder than getting a vaccine?

And some people wonder why other people aren't for universal health care…

Universal Healthcare would be cheaper and make the population healthier on average.

People who are opposed to Universal Healthcare are wrong on every level.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Universal Healthcare would be cheaper and make the population healthier on average.

People who are opposed to Universal Healthcare are wrong on every level.

your opinion.

people who take partial data and use it as a foundation to say it 100% works and anyoen ooposed is wrong… is wrong on every level


See how this works? We've been through this. Your numbers don’t include tangibles that WILL happen.
Just agree to disagree instead of trying to tell me im wrong based on incomplete data.

 

[Phatguysrule]

your opinion.

people who take partial data and use it as a foundation to say it 100% works and anyoen ooposed is wrong… is wrong on every level


See how this works? We've been through this. Your numbers don’t include tangibles that WILL happen.
Just agree to disagree instead of trying to tell me im wrong based on incomplete data.

Excellent! Please quantify these "tangibles".

I'll wait right here.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Excellent! Please quantify these "tangibles".

I'll wait right here.

I have before. Again we have been through this. Not interested in repeating the same thing over and over.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I have before. Again we have been through this. Not interested in repeating the same thing over and over.

You haven't actually. You ignored per capita healthcare spending and tried to tie per capita healthcare spending in with military spending... Which is not how things work.

But you didn't want to discuss it further. You gave no data. No quantifiable information. At all.

 

[Orion Bailey]

You haven't actually. You ignored per capita healthcare spending and tried to tie per capita healthcare spending in with military spending... Which is not how things work.

But you didn't want to discuss it further. You gave no data. No quantifiable information. At all.

Thats not how the end of our last conversation on this topic ended. It ended with you admitting the data you provided did not include the intangibles i brought up. That to me is flawed data and we moved on. Check the history.

data doesn't take into account those who don't get help now but would later if it were free. Adding to the data. Who knows how much? We dont. But it will happen.
Thats just one of the many tangibles…

im saying neither of us are able to prove without error, our opinions are correct. So we need to agree to disagree because without that data, neither of us know for a fact.

 

[Orion Bailey]

@Phatguysrule

Thats not how the end of our last conversation on this topic ended. It ended with you admitting the data you provided did not include the intangibles i brought up. That to me is flawed data and we moved on. Check the history.

data doesn't take into account those who don't get help now but would later if it were free. Adding to the data. Who knows how much? We dont. But it will happen.
Thats just one of the many tangibles…

im saying neither of us are able to prove without error, our opinions are correct. So we need to agree to disagree because without that data, neither of us know for a fact.

edit. Actually this isn't true. Im mixing conversation up. My apologies. That conversation was a out housing the homeless. Not universal health care.
If i do need to list the tangibles beyond the one i did, i shall but to think there wont be intangibles that will inflate the costs is naive to me.

 

[donkiez]

data doesn't take into account those who don't get help now but would later if it were free. Adding to the data. Who knows how much? We dont. But it will happen.
Thats just one of the many tangibles…

Wait a second, is your perspective really that we shouldnt have universal health care because then people who need it might use it? Or is it that current health care is only affordable now because many people who need it don't get it? Either way, they are actually arguments for universal health care, especially when you factor preventative care as being vastly cheaper in the long run than reaction care.

 

[Phatguysrule]

@Phatguysrule
edit. Actually this isn't true. Im mixing conversation up. My apologies. That conversation was a out housing the homeless. Not universal health care.
If i do need to list the tangibles beyond the one i did, i shall but to think there wont be intangibles that will inflate the costs is naive to me.

Please quantify the intangibles in American that do not exist in other countries with universal Healthcare?

 

[Phatguysrule]

Thats not how the end of our last conversation on this topic ended. It ended with you admitting the data you provided did not include the intangibles i brought up. That to me is flawed data and we moved on. Check the history.

data doesn't take into account those who don't get help now but would later if it were free. Adding to the data. Who knows how much? We dont. But it will happen.
Thats just one of the many tangibles…

im saying neither of us are able to prove without error, our opinions are correct. So we need to agree to disagree because without that data, neither of us know for a fact.

Yes, I proved (without error) that American government spending on healthcare was more (per capita) than Canada's whole healthcare system costs (per capita).

Then you didn't want to talk about it anymore.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Thats not how the end of our last conversation on this topic ended. It ended with you admitting the data you provided did not include the intangibles i brought up. That to me is flawed data and we moved on. Check the history.

You're misremembering our conversation. I don't believe I made any such admission, because I don't believe it's true.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Wait a second, is your perspective really that we shouldnt have universal health care because then people who need it might use it? Or is it that current health care is only affordable now because many people who need it don't get it? Either way, they are actually arguments for universal health care, especially when you factor preventative care as being vastly cheaper in the long run than reaction care.

no thats not what i said. But the assumed costs of health care i do not think are accurate because more people will use and abuse it.
Think obesity is a health issue now?
Wait until everyone believes they can jsut shit on their own body and someone else will pick up the bill. Sorry.
Not for it.
We are not all the same. We do not all take care of ourselves the same. So therefor not everyone should have to pay into the same system to help those who don't want to help themselves.

Period. It is not right to force one person to give up some of what they earn to pay for someone else who hits the emergency regularly because they choose to eat junk food day in and day out.

preventive medicine? How about free choice to do with our bodies without forcing others to pay the consequences?

but the real reason is this has been tried by countries OUR SIZE and failed.

call russia aNd see how universal everything worked out for them.

ill give a hint. Poverty and breadlines. Not sustainable long term. Oh aNd death and famine too.

At any rate, like ive said many many times.
Its one person's choice to defile thier body and its my choice to let them do it.

dont take my choice away without taking theirs!

 

[Orion Bailey]

You're misremembering our conversation. I don't believe I made any such admission, because I don't believe it's true.

you must have missed the edit.

so the Canadian health thing. Two factors. Per capita is an asterisk. The more people the higher the costs go per person as more people means more spread.

also. On average i beleive Canadians are much healthier than us.
When a society starts with a good personal health ethic, then of course they wont need as much care.

you do hear all those lazy Canadian stories just liek the usa, right?


Lifestyle and personal behavior is a huge factor in the costs and we are one of the worst.
So when comparing health cRe costs Nd being lower per capita in Canada i laugh at the comparison because it doesn't factor in how one treats their own body to start with.
Show me some stats that Canadians eat as much junk food per person as the average amErican Nd i will buy into the healthcare numbers provided per capita. Until then, it is leaving out that tangible fact.
If one country takes persona care of their own bodies more than another country, then of course their per capita health costs will be less, but personal care doesn't start with free health care. It starts with personal choice and discipline on how we treat our own bodies.

tons of fast food venues all throughout Canada are there?

Sorry. Our health care issues differ due to our lifestyle. This makes the per capita health care costs for Canada moot compared to us.

 

[Chris Craig]

you must have missed the edit.

so the Canadian health thing. Two factors. Per capita is an asterisk. The more people the higher the costs go per person as more people means more spread.

also. On average i beleive Canadians are much healthier than us.
When a society starts with a good personal health ethic, then of course they wont need as much care.

you do hear all those lazy Canadian stories just liek the usa, right?


Lifestyle and personal behavior is a huge factor in the costs and we are one of the worst.
So when comparing health cRe costs Nd being lower per capita in Canada i laugh at the comparison because it doesn't factor in how one treats their own body to start with.
Show me some stats that Canadians eat as much junk food per person as the average amErican Nd i will buy into the healthcare numbers provided per capita. Until then, it is leaving out that tangible fact.
If one country takes persona care of their own bodies more than another country, then of course their per capita health costs will be less, but personal care doesn't start with free health care. It starts with personal choice and discipline on how we treat our own bodies.

tons of fast food venues all throughout Canada are there?

Sorry. Our health care issues differ due to our lifestyle. This makes the per capita health care costs for Canada moot compared to us.

Actually...they aren't much healthier diet wise

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mintel.com/blog/food-market-news/canada-vs-us-dining-out/amp

66% of Canadians eat out at fast food restaurants A look at Canadians and Americans who dine out reveals that both are more likely to eat at fast food restaurants over any other restaurant type: nearly 7 in 10 Canadians eat out at burger, chicken, pizza or sub sandwich fast food compared to 3 in 5 Americans who eat out at burger or chicken fast food. Fast casuals also draw similar levels of patronage for both countries. We find that both Canadians and Americans prefer being able to get in and out quickly, which ranks amongst the top factors considered when choosing a restaurant.

https://www.rcinet.ca/en/2017/12/09/ultra-processed-food-heart-stroke-health-risk-diet/

Almost half the foods Canadians eat are highly processed products that are poor in nutrition and increase health risks, according to new research commissioned by Heart & Stroke Canada. Even worse, children between the ages of nine and 13 are getting 57 per cent of their calories from these foods high in sugar, fat and salt that pack a lot of calories and little nutrition.

Canadians among biggest consumers

“We are, in Canada, are the world’s second largest consumers of these products, next to the United States,” says Jean-Claude Moubarac, an assistant professor at the University of Montreal and author of this report. “In Canada and similar countries like the States and the U.K., our idea is that the consumption level of these products is explaining why we have such a heavy burden with obesity…diabetes…hypertension…heart disease.”

Heart & Stroke says recent data reveal that unhealthy diets are now the leading risk factor for death in Canada.

As for cost, the better argument is healthcare in Canada isn't actually free. Canadians pay steeper taxes to cover the cost for government funded health care.

 

[crandc]

Is the claim being made that if people had health coverage they will have unhealthy habits, figuring their free healthcare will bail them out? The US is the only industrialized country without national health. Are we healthier than Europeans or Japanese? No. Compare Americans with really good health insurance and Americans with poor or none. The good insurance folks are overall healthier. That is correlation, not causation; they also tend to be better off and better educated. What about blue collar workers? Are those with unions and good healthcare less healthy than those without? Again no.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Actually...they aren't much healthier

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mintel.com/blog/food-market-news/canada-vs-us-dining-out/amp

66% of Canadians eat out at fast food restaurants A look at Canadians and Americans who dine out reveals that both are more likely to eat at fast food restaurants over any other restaurant type: nearly 7 in 10 Canadians eat out at burger, chicken, pizza or sub sandwich fast food compared to 3 in 5 Americans who eat out at burger or chicken fast food. Fast casuals also draw similar levels of patronage for both countries. We find that both Canadians and Americans prefer being able to get in and out quickly, which ranks amongst the top factors considered when choosing a restaurant.

https://www.rcinet.ca/en/2017/12/09/ultra-processed-food-heart-stroke-health-risk-diet/

Almost half the foods Canadians eat are highly processed products that are poor in nutrition and increase health risks, according to new research commissioned by Heart & Stroke Canada. Even worse, children between the ages of nine and 13 are getting 57 per cent of their calories from these foods high in sugar, fat and salt that pack a lot of calories and little nutrition.

Canadians among biggest consumers

“We are, in Canada, are the world’s second largest consumers of these products, next to the United States,” says Jean-Claude Moubarac, an assistant professor at the University of Montreal and author of this report. “In Canada and similar countries like the States and the U.K., our idea is that the consumption level of these products is explaining why we have such a heavy burden with obesity…diabetes…hypertension…heart disease.”

Heart & Stroke says recent data reveal that unhealthy diets are now the leading risk factor for death in Canada.

As for cost, the better argument is healthcare in Canada isn't actually free. Canadians pay steeper taxes to cover the cost for government funded health care.

good find. I would have thought they eat healthier. When i e traveled over the border fast food venues seemed harder to find.
With that said. You hit on my point. Canadians pay more in taxes. So regardless the per person cost they still pay more in taxes. So it costs more. And they are able to pY more taxes for that because they dont have to be taxed to pay for a military because we basically take care of them for them. Like many counties who have more universal type health care, their taxes will be more to pay for it.

and that's been my point of contention. How do we provide health care for all without raising the taxes. Do that and im all for it. But i havent seen anything conclusive that it can be done without cutting funding dramatically in other areas.
Now thats certainly a good topic of discussion there, but without it, i don't see it as a realistic possibility.



And then again. Making one person pay for another persons lack of caring for themselves is not right in my opinion. Only if the person is physically or mentally unable to do so, should others step up.

 

[theprunetang]

good find. I would have thought they eat healthier. When i e traveled over the border fast food venues seemed harder to find.
With that said. You hit on my point. Canadians pay more in taxes. So regardless the per person cost they still pay more in taxes. So it costs more. And they are able to pY more taxes for that because they dont have to be taxed to pay for a military because we basically take care of them for them. Like many counties who have more universal type health care, their taxes will be more to pay for it.

and that's been my point of contention. How do we provide health care for all without raising the taxes. Do that and im all for it. But i havent seen anything conclusive that it can be done without cutting funding dramatically in other areas.
Now thats certainly a good topic of discussion there, but without it, i don't see it as a realistic possibility.



And then again. Making one person pay for another persons lack of caring for themselves is not right in my opinion. Only if the person is physically or mentally unable to do so, should others step up.

I think this may have been the topic that had me put you on ignore. I absolutely hate your take and find that kind of attitude and understanding of the subject to be bullshit. That's all I have to say on the matter.

 

[calvin natt]

good find. I would have thought they eat healthier. When i e traveled over the border fast food venues seemed harder to find.
With that said. You hit on my point. Canadians pay more in taxes. So regardless the per person cost they still pay more in taxes. So it costs more. And they are able to pY more taxes for that because they dont have to be taxed to pay for a military because we basically take care of them for them. Like many counties who have more universal type health care, their taxes will be more to pay for it.

and that's been my point of contention. How do we provide health care for all without raising the taxes. Do that and im all for it. But i havent seen anything conclusive that it can be done without cutting funding dramatically in other areas.
Now thats certainly a good topic of discussion there, but without it, i don't see it as a realistic possibility.



And then again. Making one person pay for another persons lack of caring for themselves is not right in my opinion. Only if the person is physically or mentally unable to do so, should others step up.

Would the increased taxes be offset by eliminating each persons healthcare costs currently? Like $7000 deductibles, all the out of pocket costs, etc? I mean if I don’t have to pay for private health insurance and that cost each year but you want to tax me a few thousand, I’m all for it.

 

[riverman]

Taiwan has had national healthcare for decades and it's paid for by shopping tax....6% consumer tax goes towards giving everyone affordable health care....it's NOT free...but it's cheap....about 20 bucks a month for my entire family and a doctor visit copay costs about 4$......everytime you buy something there your receipt has a lottery number and every Friday you have a chance to win a couple hundred bucks in the lottery for having shopped and kept receipts...it's pretty simple but a very effective way to manage affordable health care...people extremely poor don't have expendable income but the guy buying a sports car has their end covered with the 6%.....I was hospitalized for 10 days with a serious condition and my copay over there was a total of 800 bucks....national health insureance works...any argument against it is bullshit in my view

 

[donkiez]

Think obesity is a health issue now?
Wait until everyone believes they can jsut shit on their own body and someone else will pick up the bill. Sorry.
Not for it.

You seem to have the doctor confused with some leisure activity. Going to the doctor isn't some party for freeloaders.

Period. It is not right to force one person to give up some of what they earn to pay for someone else who hits the emergency regularly because they choose to eat junk food day in and day out.

This is not true, it's conservative propaganda. Universal health care is proven to be cheaper for everyone involved.

preventive medicine? How about free choice to do with our bodies without forcing others to pay the consequences?

You have some serious misconceptions about universal health care, it is not forced heath care it is care available for everyone. You don't have to use it, you can still sit ignorantly in your basement denying your own mortality and no one will care.

By the way obesity, smoking, Covid and other issues are already issues that you are paying the consequences for other people's actions. I read the average Covid hospital stay is about $25k, as someone who is vaccinated I don't feel like my dollars should pay for unvaccinated hospital stays. See how that works?

dont take my choice away without taking theirs!

Ok your doubling down on the choice thing. Again, not a function of universal health care. But whatever.

call russia aNd see how universal everything worked out for them.

Russia? Why would I use Russia as an example for anything when there are real examples that are actually good. Who ever said Russia has a health care system worth paying attention to? Wtf dude Russia, where did that even come from?

 

[Phatguysrule]

you must have missed the edit.

so the Canadian health thing. Two factors. Per capita is an asterisk. The more people the higher the costs go per person as more people means more spread.

No, this is not how it works. Otherwise larger US health insurance pools wouldn't have lower cost healthcare as they do now. This happens in the US (and everywhere else) because the costs are spread out over more people.

also. On average i beleive Canadians are much healthier than us.
When a society starts with a good personal health ethic, then of course they wont need as much care.

you do hear all those lazy Canadian stories just liek the usa, right?

You believe this. You offer nothing to quantify it, and nothing to the quantify the impact. This just comes off as you saying "I don't want to believe it, so I don't." This is why I get frustrated and short when discussing things with you. Though I'll try to do better about that.

Lifestyle and personal behavior is a huge factor in the costs and we are one of the worst.
So when comparing health cRe costs Nd being lower per capita in Canada i laugh at the comparison because it doesn't factor in how one treats their own body to start with.
Show me some stats that Canadians eat as much junk food per person as the average amErican Nd i will buy into the healthcare numbers provided per capita. Until then, it is leaving out that tangible fact.
If one country takes persona care of their own bodies more than another country, then of course their per capita health costs will be less, but personal care doesn't start with free health care. It starts with personal choice and discipline on how we treat our own bodies.

tons of fast food venues all throughout Canada are there?

Here, let me help. Pretty much your whole argument can be summed up in your belief that American's are incredibly fat compared to Canadians. While we're higher on the index, it's not as drastic as you would expect.
The us has 7% higher obesity rate than Canada. A quick google search shows that obesity costs the US an additional $170 billion per year. That seems like a lot of money. That works out to about $472 per capita, per year. But we're only 7% higher than Canada, so it would actually only work out to a difference of about $35 per capita. Or less than $3 per month, per person.

Sorry. Our health care issues differ due to our lifestyle.

By about 7%

This makes the per capita health care costs for Canada moot compared to us.

So US public spending is $8950 per capita and Canada's whole healthcare system is $4975 per capita. Let's add the cost of fat people to Canada's cost so we get a total of $5,447 per capita.

So with Canada's healthcare system US public spending on healthcare would drop from $8,950 per capita to $5,447. A savings of $3,503, plus an additional private savings of $1639 per capita to spend elsewhere in the economy.

That's over $1.5 trillion (T) per year. So not moot. It's not even close.

 

[barfo]

And then again. Making one person pay for another persons lack of caring for themselves is not right in my opinion. Only if the person is physically or mentally unable to do so, should others step up.

So you are against any form of health insurance, including the current employer-based system? Because that's what insurance is - the healthy bearing part of the cost of the sick.

That's a pretty extreme position.

barfo

 

[Orion Bailey]

I think this may have been the topic that had me put you on ignore. I absolutely hate your take and find that kind of attitude and understanding of the subject to be bullshit. That's all I have to say on the matter.

were all entitled to our own opinions.
Mine being i dont want to pay for other peoples unhealthy habits is by far not isolated and is indeed a widespread consensus among many.
I could also say that anyones stance that tbinks i should have to pay for someone else who wants to eat potato chips and ice ream all day is complete bullshit too.
Who actually thinks they have the right or is in the dight demanding one person to lay for another persons consequences when making open conscious decisions that hinder their health?

thats complete bullshit to think i should have to do that.

 

[calvin natt]

When people don’t have healthcare we all DO pay for it. ER still takes you in, ambulance still comes, when that person can’t pay guess where those costs go? The insured. It’s not as simple as “well let them eat fast food and die”, they are humans first of all, but they end up costing the healthcare system anyway. And people who seek preventative healthcare end up being healthier, so giving them access to this would help lift many of them out of being so sick. And not as expensive.

 

[Orion Bailey]

So you are against any form of health insurance, including the current employer-based system? Because that's what insurance is - the healthy bearing part of the cost of the sick.

That's a pretty extreme position.

barfo

oh come on. You know we all take a survey and health insurance premiums are based upon our risks. A smoker pays more than a nonsmoker.

nice try.

 

[donkiez]

I could also say that anyones stance that tbinks i should have to pay for someone else who wants to eat potato chips and ice ream all day is complete bullshit too.
Who actually thinks they have the right or is in the dight demanding one person to lay for another persons consequences when making open conscious decisions that hinder their health?

Who do you think currently pays for uninsured diabetic care? How do you think the diabetic epidemic affects your insurance premium. Sounds like you need to opt out of the whole system.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Okay too many hopping on the band wagon.
Im not for paying more into a health are system that doesn't hold high riskers due to lifestyle, responsible. Period.
Hate me for it or think I'm a bad person, idgaf.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Who do you think currently pays for uninsured diabetic care? How do you think the diabetic epidemic affects your insurance premium. Sounds like you need to opt out of the whole system.

someone with diabetes will have a higher premium…

 

[julius]

were all entitled to our own opinions.
Mine being i dont want to pay for other peoples unhealthy habits is by far not isolated and is indeed a widespread consensus among many.
I could also say that anyones stance that tbinks i should have to pay for someone else who wants to eat potato chips and ice ream all day is complete bullshit too.
Who actually thinks they have the right or is in the dight demanding one person to lay for another persons consequences when making open conscious decisions that hinder their health?

thats complete bullshit to think i should have to do that.

Well, besides that it's not just people who "eat potato chips and ice cream" all day, it's also people who don't have jobs that offer them decent health care options, or as with a friend of mine, has to spend 700 a month because of her health issues (that aren't related to ice cream and potato chip consumption).

But mostly, as CN said, it's actually cheaper to pay for everyone, instead of having to cover the costs of the uninsured/underinsured.

 

[barfo]

someone with diabetes will have a higher premium…

You really need to learn how the healthcare system currently works. You'll be very surprised!

barfo