Hinrich telling friends ...

[PapaG]

Blake's PER in the playoffs was lower than Hinrich - and Hinrich's defensive win-score in the playoffs was twice as high as Blake's - while playing against a much better guard rotation in Rondo/Ray Ray.

I like Aaron Brooks - but he is no Rondo...

Rondo is no Magic Johnson, yet the Bulls made him look like he was.

 

[Crimson the Cat]

OK, but Blake did much better defensively. I still say Blake had the better playoff as a true PG.

What? Hinrich played much better defense than Blake.

 

[PapaG]

What? Hinrich played much better defense than Blake.

Really? Ray Allen and Rajon Rondo had incredible series against the Bulls. Who did Hinrich guard?

 

[Entity]

Who did Derrick Rose guard? Who did Ben Gordon guard?

 

[andalusian]

Rondo is no Magic Johnson, yet the Bulls made him look like he was.

What does this have to do with Blake vs. Hinrich.

No one is trying to make Capt. Kirk the next CP3 - but he is an upgrade, a pretty big one, over Blake, defensively.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Rondo is a better offensive player than Brooks - and Hinrich contributed more against him then Blake did against Brooks. Nothing less, nothing more.

The numbers just do not agree with the idea Blake had a better playoffs (offensively or defensively) than Tiberius Kirk, Captain.

 

[blue32]

Yet, a rookie, or maybe hes in his 2nd year, totally destroyed Blake, a "vet".

I dont see the correlation here PapaG. Blake is an OK defender, Kirk is better. Big deal. Either way, if we get him, we're in a better position.

 

[hasoos]

Subjective, all of it. I offer stats, you offer feelings and excuse the piss-poor perimeter defense by the Bulls.

Good day. I have an opinion, and it can be argued statistically. Your hatred of Steve Blake is making you useless to debate on this issue. Rondo slowed down considerably versus Orlando. I guess the same works for saying the Bulls made him look better than he was, right?

Ok pull up your stats man. Back it up. Lets compare the stats in two completely different series and for some reason, those will back it up, because they are totally different teams and series who play at a different pace, but hey, those stats somehow match up. Here it is:

Steve Blake
Minutes per game: 38
Points per game: 9.8
FG%: .489
3pt percentage .417
Rebounds: 4
Assist: 6.2


Kirk Hinich
Minutes per game: 30 (6 less minutes per game than Blake)
Points per game: 12.6 (in 6 minutes less per game than Blake)
FG%: .468 (lower than Blake)
3 point percentage: .433 (better than Blake)
Rebounds:2.7 (Worse than Blake)
Assist: 2.9 (Worse than Blake)


So what do those numbers tell you? I can't make anything out of them, because they are against two different team, in a different number of minutes, and Kirk Hinrich actually plays SG part of the time when he is on the floor with Rose. Top it off with the fact that Hinrich was defended by Rondo who is actually a good defender, as compared to Brooks (ooh what a defender....) I don't really know how you can expect to get anything out of this.

 

[PapaG]

Yet, a rookie, or maybe hes in his 2nd year, totally destroyed Blake, a "vet".

I dont see the correlation here PapaG. Blake is an OK defender, Kirk is better. Big deal. Either way, if we get him, we're in a better position.

I don't think Kirk Hinrich is the key to anything in terms of improving the team. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't view him as a huge upgrade over Blake. I saw people dribble right by Hinrich all series versus Boston.

 

[blue32]

I don't think Kirk Hinrich is the key to anything in terms of improving the team. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't view him as a huge upgrade over Blake. I saw people dribble right by Hinrich all series versus Boston.

Hell i could be wrong too, but I did see some good things from Kirk in the play offs...

oh well, fuck it. We'll all see tomorrow

 

[andalusian]

So what do those numbers tell you? I can't make anything out of them, because they are against two different team, in a different number of minutes, and Kirk Hinrich actually plays SG part of the time when he is on the floor with Rose. Top it off with the fact that Hinrich was defended by Rondo who is actually a good defender, as compared to Brooks (ooh what a defender....) I don't really know how you can expect to get anything out of this.

That's why you try to use PER for offense and DWS for defense (for no better alternative) - since they try to remove some of the issues like pace and minutes and the like. Based on these - Capt. Kirk did better in these playoffs on both offense and defense than Blake did.

 

[PapaG]

What does this have to do with Blake vs. Hinrich.

No one is trying to make Capt. Kirk the next CP3 - but he is an upgrade, a pretty big one, over Blake, defensively.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Rondo is a better offensive player than Brooks - and Hinrich contributed more against him then Blake did against Brooks. Nothing less, nothing more.

The numbers just do not agree with the idea Blake had a better playoffs (offensively or defensively) than Tiberius Kirk, Captain.

About as much as comparing Aaron Brooks to Rajon Rondo made in this thread, and then saying Brooks looked like crap against LA. Well, Rondo played much worse against Rafer Alston than he did against the Bulls. What that means? Nothing, just as somebody saying Brooks played worse against LA was relevant.

 

[Crimson the Cat]

They didn't play each other, but statistically, Blake shot better overall, had a better PER, and had a much better A/TO ratio while playing 8 more minutes per game. Plus, Rondo average a triple-double against the Bulls and Ray Allen averaged 23 ppg for that series. I guess I missed the stellar perimeter defense played by Hinrich?

That's what I get for reading posts out of order.

Blake's net gain for the team was 1.8PER. This was solely at the 1.
http://www.82games.com/0809/playoffs/08POR1.HTM

Hinrich had to play the majority of his minutes at the 2. While at the 1 for 11% of his team's minutes, he had a net gain of 10PER!

He played 45% of his teams minutes at the 2, and playing out of position, still managed to have a net gain of 2.3PER.

Did you not watch the series?

 

[Mediocre Man]

You calling him worthless is laughable. The dude is the Przybilla of point guards. Tough as nails and downright one of the best defending guards in the league.

One of the best comparisons I have seen. Except Hinrich is a much better offensive player than Joel will ever be.


It boggles my mind how people can think Hinrich is only a minor upgrade over Blake.

 

[Entity]

For those assist numbers, Hinrich was the only guard off the bench in that series, so Rose ran the offense half of the time Hinrich was in the game. He's a career 6.1 APG.

 

[andalusian]

About as much as comparing Aaron Brooks to Rajon Rondo made in this thread, and then saying Brooks looked like crap against LA. Well, Rondo played much worse against Rafer Alston than he did against the Bulls. What that means? Nothing, just as somebody saying Brooks played worse against LA was relevant.

I am sorry - but you made the claim that Blake had a better playoffs than Hinrich did - so looking at their numbers and comparing them, defensively, against who they went against - makes sense when assessing this statement.

The numbers show us that Kirk had a better PER (mostly, better offense) and a better DWS (measuring defense). When we actually look and see who they faced - the comparison between Brooks and Rondo makes sense.

It's all about context... In the context of your argument - this comparison makes sense. I am not the one that made the declaration that Blake had better playoffs than Hinrich - you did - and this statement is just plain wrong from a simple statistical evidence. It is even more damning - on the defensive side, when you consider their opponents.

Does this make it clear why I made the comparison?

 

[PapaG]

One of the best comparisons I have seen. Except Hinrich is a much better offensive player than Joel will ever be.


It boggles my mind how people can think Hinrich is only a minor upgrade over Blake.

Chicago drafted a player to replace him, and Hinrich is a career 41% shooter who turns the ball over without putting up a lot of assists.

I'm not that excited about him. I hope he proves me wrong if he lands in PDX.

 

[Crimson the Cat]

Really? Ray Allen and Rajon Rondo had incredible series against the Bulls. Who did Hinrich guard?

It was Rose who couldn't defend Rondo. He played the point for 84% of Chicago's minutes.
http://www.82games.com/0809/playoffs/08CHI1.HTM

 

[PapaG]

I am sorry - but you made the claim that Blake had a better playoffs than Hinrich did - so looking at their numbers and comparing them, defensively, against who they went against - makes sense when assessing this statement.

The numbers show us that Kirk had a better PER (mostly, better offense) and a better DWS (measuring defense). When we actually look and see who they faced - the comparison between Brooks and Rondo makes sense.

It's all about context... In the context of your argument - this comparison makes sense. I am not the one that made the declaration that Blake had better playoffs than Hinrich - you did - and this statement is just plain wrong from a simple statistical evidence. It is even more damning - on the defensive side, when you consider their opponents.

Does this make it clear why I made the comparison?

I just compared statistics as well. Your stats versus my stats. Hence, a debate. I love how people just ignore the dominant series that Rondo and Allen had against Chicago. Hinrich was torched, as was Blake at times.

 

[Entity]

Chicago drafted a player to replace him, and Hinrich is a career 41% shooter who turns the ball over without putting up a lot of assists.

I'm not that excited about him. I hope he proves me wrong if he lands in PDX.

6.1 assists to 2.3 turnovers for his career. And Rose was the best player in that draft.

 

[PapaG]

It was Rose who couldn't defend Rondo. He played the point for 84% of Chicago's minutes.
http://www.82games.com/0809/playoffs/08CHI1.HTM

So Chicago didn't even trust lock-down defender Kirk Hinrich to defend a quick PG? That actually hurts your case IMO. Blake at least defended a quick PG, to mixed results. The Bulls didn't even let Hinrich defend the guy who was shredding their defense? How does that make Hinrich the guy to stop penetration in Portland?

Plus, Ray Allen went off anyhow? Does that mean Hinrich can't defend quick PGs or outside SGs?

 

[Sheldon Shape]

I think we need a guy who can get to the rim, not a guy who's going to hoist more jumpshots than Steve Blake. It's amazing to see that 89% of Kirk's field goal attempts were jump shots. That blows and that's not something I want. I want a guy who can attack the rim.

 

[andalusian]

Chicago drafted a player to replace him, and Hinrich is a career 41% shooter who turns the ball over without putting up a lot of assists.

So, if Portland had a chance to draft Derrick Rose they would not because we have Blake?

As for their careers - Hinrich's FG% is higher than Blake's, his assist-rate is higher than Blake's and his turn-over-rate is lower than Blake's.

Blake plays in a much slower system - and he does a fantastic job of protecting the ball in this system. Hinrich is not as good at protecting the ball in Chicago's pace as Blake is in Portland's pace (but the difference is very small) - but if you actually look at the time Blake spent with the Bucks on the Nuggets - where pace is as fast as Chicago's or faster - you will see that his turn-over rate was worse than Hinrich's. With this in mind - I would suspect that given the same pace/system - Hinrich will do just as well as Blake does protecting the ball -and will likely have the higher assist rate he had through his career.

 

[PapaG]

Which elite post players has Hinrich proven to be able to consistently get the ball to in shooting position? That's a big criticism against Blake; what's Hinrich's NBA experience in post entry?

 

[Crimson the Cat]

Chicago drafted a player to replace him, and Hinrich is a career 41% shooter who turns the ball over without putting up a lot of assists.

I'm not that excited about him. I hope he proves me wrong if he lands in PDX.

Do you realize that he's had to play out of position for much of his recent career? All without complaining or bitching, I might add. Granted he struggled the year before last, but man, everyone on that clusterfuck of a team did. Sometimes players are only solid in a quality, well-balanced system. That's what happens to role players.

Low and behold, Chicago puts together a good team with the right role players and Del Negro finds away get his team to put up a consistent effort, and look what happens. Kirk plays well.

Just think about what he'd do next to our guys. I'm fucking STOOOOOKED.

Damn, I forgot, we don't even have him yet. Shit.

 

[andalusian]

I just compared statistics as well. Your stats versus my stats. Hence, a debate. I love how people just ignore the dominant series that Rondo and Allen had against Chicago. Hinrich was torched, as was Blake at times.

I am all for debate - but the statistics you offer are flawed - they ignore pace, they ignore opposing players and they ignore minutes played and position played.

Hinrich played more as a 2 than a 1 - and Ray Allen had a very up and down series - if you remember - his good games were also the games when Ben Gordon went off - letting you know that it was probably Ben Gordon that was (not) guarding him when he went on. When Ben Gordon was not producing offensively - Hinrich played more and Allen did not have a good offensive showing.

Most of Rondo's damage was against Rose, not Hinrich - and the reason Hinrich was not guarding Rondo was probably because VanDerGraf Generator (my name for Vinny Del Negro) tried to stop Ray Ray more than he did try to stop Rondo. When Hinrich was on Rondo - there were some fights happening - because Rondo did not like the tough, physical defense...

We need more of that, honestly.

 

[Crimson the Cat]

So Chicago didn't even trust lock-down defender Kirk Hinrich to defend a quick PG? That actually hurts your case IMO. Blake at least defended a quick PG, to mixed results. The Bulls didn't even let Hinrich defend the guy who was shredding their defense? How does that make Hinrich the guy to stop penetration in Portland?

Plus, Ray Allen went off anyhow? Does that mean Hinrich can't defend quick PGs or outside SGs?

I don't know why they decided to do that, but I would imagine it had to do with letting Rose get experience.

You asked for stats didn't you. I have stats to support my claims. You have an opinion which you're basing off of Del Negro playing Rose big minutes. I win.

 

[Crimson the Cat]

I think we need a guy who can get to the rim, not a guy who's going to hoist more jumpshots than Steve Blake. It's amazing to see that 89% of Kirk's field goal attempts were jump shots. That blows and that's not something I want. I want a guy who can attack the rim.

I'd like that too. I also need that player to be a good defender. Who do you have in mind?

 

[PapaG]

I don't know why they decided to do that, but I would imagine it had to do with letting Rose get experience.
You asked for stats didn't you. I have stats to support my claims. You have an opinion which you're basing off of Del Negro playing Rose big minutes. I win.

Are you imagining stats to address why Hinrich didn't get a chance to stop the guy abusing the Bulls?

 

[Crimson the Cat]

Which elite post players has Hinrich proven to be able to consistently get the ball to in shooting position? That's a big criticism against Blake; what's Hinrich's NBA experience in post entry?

I wouldn't say that's why he's being looked at. He hasn't had any prolific big men teammates that come to mind. It doesn't change the fact that he does practically everything that Blake can offensively, but is a better defender.

You're grasping at straws Papa.

 

[andalusian]

Are you imagining stats to address why Hinrich didn't get a chance to stop the guy abusing the Bulls?

Hinrich was mostly the one stopping Ray Ray - and as noticed - when faced against Rondo - Rondo had some trouble with the physical defense he played to the tune of trying to throw him.

Again, Hinrich is not the world's best PG. He is not likely to make an all-star team, he will never be an all-NBA selection (but he was a 2nd-team all-NBA defensive selection in the past) - but he is an upgrade and not a trivial one, over Blake.