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About as much as Chris Paul has, if your talking about team performance.
 
PapaG said:
So now Chris Paul = Kirk Hinrich. LMAO at the delusion on this board.
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Of course that's absurd. It was supposed to be my point. And I noticed you completely deflected my implication that team accomplishment doesn't mean much for an individual player when looking at his value.
 
Entity said:
Of course that's absurd. It was supposed to be my point. And I noticed you completely deflected my implication that team accomplishment doesn't mean much for an individual player when looking at his value.
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Blake won an NCAA title and is now the most accomplished player on that team in terms of NBA success. :dunno:
 
PapaG said:
I never said that, did I?
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I'm just trying to figure out where an NCAA national title matters in how Blake should be considered over Hinrich. Plenty of point guards have won NCAA titles and never amounted to anything in the NBA. Ask Kevin Pritchard.
 
I'm not saying Blake doesn't amount to anything. I like Blake quite a bit, actually. I just think that Hinrich is better.
 
Entity said:
I'm not saying Blake doesn't amount to anything. I like Blake quite a bit, actually. I just think that Hinrich is better.
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Me too. Blake was an NBA level PG and not a bad one last year (not to mention the only one we had on the roster that was actually any good) - but he is not great and there is one big area of concern with him - and that's defense.
 
andalusian said:
Me too. Blake was an NBA level PG and not a bad one last year (not to mention the only one we had on the roster that was actually any good) - but he is not great and there is one big area of concern with him - and that's defense.
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Yet Hinrich has never defended an elite PG in the playoffs and won the series.
 
I'd actually like it if Tyrus were included somehow.

He's a good bench player in the mold of Chris Anderson (with more offense).
 
PapaG said:
Yet Hinrich has never defended an elite PG in the playoffs and won the series.
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Hinrich never had anyone as good Roy was this year play next to him either, nor did he ever have anyone as good as Carmelo or AI next to him.

I really do not think it is Hinrich's fault that his team did not advance - until this year - they never really had a great NBA player or prospect on the roster next to him - and Rose is not ready...

Again, Hinrich is not the greatest player or PG in the world - but he is better than Blake
 
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Last season, if Blake had played for the Bulls while Heinrich played for the Blazers, I wonder what the teams' respective records and results might have been?
 
Well, Kirk does have a 1-0 lead in the "NBA All-Defensive" team category. :dunno:

I guess I'm just trying to say that I see Kirk being as good, if not slightly better than Blake in almost all aspects of the offensive side of the ball. I see Kirk as being head-and-shoulders above Blake on the defensive side. If you don't agree with those basics, then we're probably not going to see eye-to-eye on this. :cheers:

If you want to talk about maybe not being enough of an upgrade to ship out Travis, that's cool and I'll enjoy the debate. If you want to talk about how sending out Webster and a 1st is worth it to not send out Travis, fair enough. But to say that Hinrich isn't as good or better in almost every single aspect of professional basketball than Blake seems really odd to me.
 
Kirk Hinrich is a good defender. That's not debateable. I'm not a big Kirk Hinrich fan. The scouting report on Hinrich is basically very good defender, above average three point shooter, great ball control, good teammate, but overdribbles the ball and disappears in the clutch.

In 2005, Bulls didn't advance because Curry and Deng were both out with injures. In 2006, the Heat were simply a better team. Bulls had the Heat on the ropes in Game 5, but their offense stagnated. In 2007, the Bulls lost ot the Pistons because Skiles changed the strategy from the Miami series, and instead of having Gordon playing at the top of the key in a pick and roll with Nocioni, he had Gordon stand in the corner, making him extremely easy for the Pistons to guard. This past year, Gordon tore his hamstring in game 4, and had no strength in one of his legs for half the series.
 
People around here seem to forget that that major issue with the PG last season was that they left our bigs out to dry, and that got our bigs in a lot of foul trouble, which kept them off the court, and not producing. That alone would be worth it in my book, to be able to have bigs, shot blockers, in the game at a critical time, not afraid to defend because they have fouls to give. That is what I want. You combine that with a guard that jsut doesn't fuck up much, and the team will improve a lot.
 
Nikolokolus said:
Not to muddy the waters, but Allen shot a paltry 40% on Field goals and 35% on 3s, had the lowest offensive rating of his career in a playoff series (110) and was only able to score 18 points per game in 40 minutes ... For Ray Allen that is fucking god awful. Was that all Hinrich? Probably not, but you have to at least give partial credit no? :dunno:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allenra02.html
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Not to muddy the waters, but are you going to address your faulty statistics?
 
There are some very unrealistic views on what it takes to be an effective point guard out there. All of the best point guards in the league are unguardable. What you can do:

1. You can make them work hard for every shot, and try to reduce their efficiency. For instance, if we had one guard that would have paid attention to footage and noticed Aaron Brooks always dances slightly left before he shoots, and if you force him right he misses a lot, you win a lot more battles. Not all, but more.

2. You can go at them on the offensive end. If you don't put any pressure on the paint, (and neither Blake or Sergio did, because Blake can't and Sergio can't finish), the other PG doesn't have to work to guard you. Then they have more energy on the offensive end, and more energy at the end of the game to finish. Go at them, and maybe those legs are a little tired in the 4th.

So it ends up one of two boats. You are either a team that has a fast high end point guard, or you are a team that gets victimized by them. Portland get victimized by them nightly. You show up to play the LA Clippers, one of the worst teams in the league, and there is Baron Davis.

Right now in the western conference, where Portland plays a majority of the games, they have to face:

Chauncey Billups
Tony Parker
Steve Nash
Deron Williams
Baron Davis
Monta Ellis
Jason Kidd (getting slower by the minute)

That is about 40 games where each night we are in the hole at PG to start, and have to make up for it elsewhere. The whole time the Blazers are playing those teams, are bigs are getting exposed to fouls because of the extraordinary amount of penetration being allowed by the Blazer PG. They are making it too easy. That is costing our bigs time on the floor where they can be productive, because they are not experienced enough yet to deal with a blown cover on the perimeter. Maybe one day, but not today.

Now that being said, Hinrich is a better defender than Blake, he is bigger than Blake, he is a better finisher than Blake, and he penetrates the paint better than Blake, and is a better pick and roll point guard than Blake. He is in upgrade I could handle. He plays the right way for what the team needs.
 
ABM said:
Last season, if Blake had played for the Bulls while Heinrich played for the Blazers, I wonder what the teams' respective records and results might have been?
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No way in hell the Bulls take 'em to 7, IMO.

We make it past the Rockets, IMO.
 
PapaG said:
Not to muddy the waters, but are you going to address your faulty statistics?
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oops, damn I completely spaced it that the Cs played on into the second round and i just grabbed his playoff averages thinking that was all I needed.

In any case he shot 44% on field goals and really only had two games well above (his) average in the series particularly when he went off for 18/32 on field goals, his 3 pt% was 46% for the series was also heavily weighted by that crazy sixth game when he was 9/18 on 3 point attempts ... You're right he had a better series against Chicago than he did later against Orlando. So my bad I stand corrected.

As for how much of Allen's damage was done against Hinrich versus Gordon or somebody else like Salmons I don't really know, all I can say is that I watched that series and Hinrich passed the eyeball test as far as playing solid defense most of the time. I'm not in love with Hinrich or anything, but I think he'd be one hell of a solid upgrade at position of need defensively and would do no harm as compared to Steve Blake offensively as well as being able to at least run the pick and roll somewhat more effectively.
 
PapaG said:
Hmm, how so, in terms of winning championships?
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How are most of the guards in the NBA at winning championships until they win one? Billups. Rondo. Fisher. Those are the only one's I can think of off the top of my head that have NBA championships.

How many championships does Steve Nash have?
How many championships does Jason Kidd have?
How many championships does Chris Paul have?


Make the point?
 
Crimson the Cat said:
No way in hell the Bulls take 'em to 7, IMO.

We make it past the Rockets, IMO.
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I don't know if Hinrich would make a big enough difference against the Rockets. We lost that series because:

A) Houston is 10x more physical than we are.

B) We spent the whole series trying to figure out how to defend Yao.

C) Aaron Brooks and Von Wafer made us look silly.

D) The refs didn't call it both ways.

E) We had zero playoff experience and it showed.

I'm not sure Hinrich would have helped with anything but C.
 
hasoos said:
How are most of the guards in the NBA at winning championships until they win one? Billups. Rondo. Fisher. Those are the only one's I can think of off the top of my head that have NBA championships.

How many championships does Steve Nash have?
How many championships does Jason Kidd have?
How many championships does Chris Paul have?


Make the point?
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Or John Stockton. Or Gary Payton until he basically rode DWade and Shaq for a ring a few years back.
 
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