Hornets Exec: "No Deals for Paul"

[Idog1976]

The problem with this is CP3 doesn't want to gut any team he is going to. There isn't any reason to go to another team that is gutted and not any better then staying with NO and waiting until he is a FA.

So you think all the "leaks" are lies? What does he have to gain from them or are you saying it's just a bored media? Also you could gut Orlando say and still improve it by keeping D Ho and adding CP3. Also you could go to Portland or Dallas and keep the key pieces without gutting the team. The only proposed team he would "gut" is NYK.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

They aren't forced to trade him. What nets them the most value? Keeping him and trying to win.

Exactly. And the fact that they've brought in new management and a new coach means that they're already "making an effort."
Who's going to pay the same for the Hornets without Paul as they would with Paul? Nobody. Paul is the ONLY reason ANYONE in NO cares about the Hornets.

 

[Tortimer]

So you think all the "leaks" are lies? What does he have to gain from them or are you saying it's just a bored media? Also you could gut Orlando say and still improve it by keeping D Ho and adding CP3. Also you could go to Portland or Dallas and keep the key pieces without gutting the team. The only proposed team he would "gut" is NYK.

No, I'm saying CP3 doesn't care if NO gets a fair deal because he wouldn't want to go to Portland, Orl or anywhere that trades to much and leaves him with no chance of winning.

 

[Idog1976]

They aren't forced to trade him. What nets them the most value? Keeping him and trying to win.

OK so, pray tell show me how they do that. I don't think they can attain the heights of 2008, let alone get past a now two time champion LAL or Portland or Dallas and especially not whatever beast team emerges from the East.

I'm telling you guys the best value for NOH can be gotten now and the longer they wait the more their options and leverage decrease. The more time goes on the weaker the offers will be as CP3 will threaten to walk. Look at Toronto and Bosh or worse yet CLE as your examples.

By the way Rasta, Maxiep meant it's in essence a one year deal if year two is locked out with no trades allowed. That is a distinct possibility and only adds to my argument.

Let me give you another reason NOH better be thinking about (and us for that matter) CP3 isn't exactly Dwight Howard or LeBron when it comes to games played per season. Another knee injury would really hurt his value and another season of him carrying the team makes that more likely. Again he's healthy now, they can pretend they don't want to trade him (this is already happening), many teams have salary cap and pieces right now after summer of LeBron. The time to deal with max value and minimum risk of lower value is now.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

So you think all the "leaks" are lies?

What "leaks"? The ones that say Paul wants to be traded? No, they're probably true. So what? If you mean the ones that said Jeff Bower got fired for admitting that Paul was on the block, well, the fact that there were totally conflicting "leaks" "explaining" his firing (he was fired for admitting that ownership believed it vs. he was fired for trying to trade Paul against ownership's wishes (plus he was fired because he no longer got on with Paul)) kind of undermines either side's credibility.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

By the way Rasta, Maxiep meant it's in essence a one year deal if year two is locked out with no trades allowed.

I know what he means. Read my post.

 

[Idog1976]

What "leaks"? The ones that say Paul wants to be traded? No, they're probably true. So what? If you mean the ones that said Jeff Bower got fired for admitting that Paul was on the block, well, the fact that there were totally conflicting "leaks" "explaining" his firing (he was fired for admitting that ownership believed it vs. he was fired for trying to trade Paul against ownership's wishes (plus he was fired because he no longer got on with Paul)) kind of undermines either side's credibility.

The bolded leaks are what I meant. An unhappy Paul encourages other teams to low ball NOH who only gets MORE desperate over time.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I'm telling you guys the best value for NOH can be gotten now and the longer they wait the more their options and leverage decrease. The more time goes on the weaker the offers will be as CP3 will threaten to walk. Look at Toronto and Bosh or worse yet CLE as your examples.

Yes, let's look at them. For one thing, we have no idea what they were offered. Maybe they, like the Hornets, were offered shit. Maybe they didn't like the cost of what they were offered by capped-out teams (which any contender is likely to be). Look at it this way:
The only reason for the Hornets to trade Chris Paul is if they don't care that they're going to suck. Who doesn't care if they suck? A team that only cares about money. But a team who only cares about money is MORE LIKELY to keep Paul, (a) because nobody will go to the games if they get rid of him, and (b) they get a huge chunk of cap space if he walks.

Look at the Cavs: actually, the whole city of Cleveland is rallying round the Cavs because James walked. They've got a hell of a lot more goodwill than if they traded him.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

The bolded leaks are what I meant. An unhappy Paul encourages other teams to low ball NOH who only gets MORE desperate over time.

Not if they're prepared to let him walk. And even if he becomes a UFA, they can still count on signing-and-trading, and if they want to win, they'll have a huge trade exception that they can use to poach value off other teams.

The time when they were going to get value for him has either passed already, because of all these "leaks", or is actually in the future, as teams that WON'T have cap space try to beat out teams who can compete for him when he becomes a UFA by trading before he gets there.

 

[B-Roy]

OK so, pray tell show me how they do that. I don't think they can attain the heights of 2008, let alone get past a now two time champion LAL or Portland or Dallas and especially not whatever beast team emerges from the East.

This is the type of thinking I don't agree with, and I don't think any team in the league should either. Why doom yourself before you even get a chance to play? Makes no sense to me.

I'm telling you guys the best value for NOH can be gotten now and the longer they wait the more their options and leverage decrease. The more time goes on the weaker the offers will be as CP3 will threaten to walk. Look at Toronto and Bosh or worse yet CLE as your examples.

Actually, pigeonholing the potential scenarios into one option would be less advisable. If management thinks they have to trade him now, their probably not going to get the best deal.

Let me give you another reason NOH better be thinking about (and us for that matter) CP3 isn't exactly Dwight Howard or LeBron when it comes to games played per season. Another knee injury would really hurt his value and another season of him carrying the team makes that more likely. Again he's healthy now, they can pretend they don't want to trade him (this is already happening), many teams have salary cap and pieces right now after summer of LeBron. The time to deal with max value and minimum risk of lower value is now.

Every team would have injury concerns for Paul, but that shouldn't stop New Orleans from keeping the best point guard in the league.

 

[Idog1976]

Not if they're prepared to let him walk. And even if he becomes a UFA, they can still count on signing-and-trading, and if they want to win, they'll have a huge trade exception that they can use to poach value off other teams.

The time when they were going to get value for him has either passed already, because of all these "leaks", or is actually in the future, as teams that WON'T have cap space try to beat out teams who can compete for him when he becomes a UFA by trading before he gets there.

Depends on the looming lockout. Nobody will trade for him on a one year deal if a lockout is looming for 2011/12 and he won't re-sign for an S&T to any team that doesn't make his cut.

 

[Natebishop3]

I think Paul absolutely has leverage. You don't think that Paul can point to what happened in Cleveland with LeBron, and say to Hornets management that they stand to lose him for nothing in two years? I think the longer they hold onto him, the less leverage they will have, and the less compensation they will return in trade. The BEST time to trade him will be this summer and into the season before the trade deadline. If he is still on the team next summer, I think their offers will be significantly less.

Cleveland and New Orleans are not that dissimilar. If the Cavs had traded LeBron two years ago, they would have gotten a ton of value in trade. People would have thought they were nuts, but in hindsight the best move would have been to trade LeBron for young talent and rebuild. That team was built around James, and without him they are probably not even a playoff team next year. If New Orleans trades Paul now, they will probably get some decent cap relief and young talent. If they wait, they might end up with nothing.

 

[Idog1976]

Yes, let's look at them. For one thing, we have no idea what they were offered. Maybe they, like the Hornets, were offered shit. Maybe they didn't like the cost of what they were offered by capped-out teams (which any contender is likely to be). Look at it this way:
The only reason for the Hornets to trade Chris Paul is if they don't care that they're going to suck. Who doesn't care if they suck? A team that only cares about money. But a team who only cares about money is MORE LIKELY to keep Paul, (a) because nobody will go to the games if they get rid of him, and (b) they get a huge chunk of cap space if he walks.

Look at the Cavs: actually, the whole city of Cleveland is rallying round the Cavs because James walked. They've got a hell of a lot more goodwill than if they traded him.

They will get far more money from shedding 20 million + in salary then they would by keeping Paul and possibly even missing the playoffs this year $3 million and cash plus $14 million savings next summer plus more savings after that in a variety of trades trumps that. Also, trading Paul ets them get on with the rebuilding process via lottery picks in the draft.

Winning and deep into the playoffs isn't an option in reality. If they want money their best move is to trade Paul for expirings and young talent to start re-building process chemistry. If they want talent the time is now. Too much uncertainty with a lockout, potential hardcap and restrictions on trades in the new CBA. Their best move is to trade him this summer before the season starts IMO.

 

[Idog1976]

This is the type of thinking I don't agree with, and I don't think any team in the league should either. Why doom yourself before you even get a chance to play? Makes no sense to me.

You would make a terrible general. The best generals know when to retreat and live to fight another day without sacrificing their army (CP3's trade value) due to vain hope of winning. Also this undermines your argument against them wanting Camby to create a winning atmosphere and training wheels while they rebuild.

Sure you could fantasize about beating the Lakers and run a business based on fanciful thinking or you could be realistic and save yourself money and expand your options by trading him now.

 

[MARIS61]

They haven't lost any leverage...

They never had any to begin with.

 

[Idog1976]

I think Paul absolutely has leverage. You don't think that Paul can point to what happened in Cleveland with LeBron, and say to Hornets management that they stand to lose him for nothing in two years? I think the longer they hold onto him, the less leverage they will have, and the less compensation they will return in trade. The BEST time to trade him will be this summer and into the season before the trade deadline. If he is still on the team next summer, I think their offers will be significantly less.

Cleveland and New Orleans are not that dissimilar. If the Cavs had traded LeBron two years ago, they would have gotten a ton of value in trade. People would have thought they were nuts, but in hindsight the best move would have been to trade LeBron for young talent and rebuild. That team was built around James, and without him they are probably not even a playoff team next year. If New Orleans trades Paul now, they will probably get some decent cap relief and young talent. If they wait, they might end up with nothing.

Exactly. CP3 might not have been able to pull this move last summer or even this summer if LBJ had stayed. He can threaten to not participate in an S & T ala LBJ and totally hose the team in two years a very real and devastating threat. Their leverage only decreases over time, I'm telling you if you think about it strategically instead of tactically you will see it. Think about the war (franchise over the next ten years) rather then the battle (2010/11 season and ticket sales).

 

[B-Roy]

You would make a terrible general. The best generals know when to retreat and live to fight another day without sacrificing their army (CP3's trade value) due to vain hope of winning.

If things worked like that, we'd be able to run a team with

Harris
Roy
Granger
Aldridge
Oden

Sweet. You should find a job with the Indiana Pacers or something, get them to trade us Granger for Przybilla!

Also this undermines your argument against them wanting Camby to create a winning atmosphere and training wheels while they rebuild.

I never made this argument.

 

[Idog1976]

If things worked like that, we'd be able to run a team with

Harris
Roy
Granger
Aldridge
Oden

Sweet. You should find a job with the Indiana Pacers or something, get them to trade us Granger for Przybilla!


I never made this argument.

You never argued against why NOH would want Camby? Maybe that was Masbee, you both have the Brandon avatars so I find it confusing on occasion.

You first part is just bizarre and makes no sense. I suppose you are saying we should be able to pick up Granger because the Pacers have no shot at a title. The difference is I haven't heard about Granger being disgruntled, demanding a trade and being an auto-max superstar who can walk in two years with one year possibly being lost due to lockout with no trades that year...

 

[Sug]

The lockout is going to be a lot like LBJ to NY trust me. The NBA has become a players league and we have gone well past the point of changing that.

 

[noknobs]

But a team who only cares about money is MORE LIKELY to keep Paul, (a) because nobody will go to the games if they get rid of him, and (b) they get a huge chunk of cap space if he walks.

Got news for you: http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance

Nobody was going anyways. I don't think NO will end up trading him, because I think they're actually delusional/inept enough to believe they can still trade their way to a decent team, but just wanted to point that out. And like idog said, if they hold on to him and let him walk, they lose the option of getting rid of Okafur or Posey's contracts by trading them with Paul. They're just delaying the inevitable and getting nothing in return. But I think near the trading deadline would be the earliest Paul will be moved, by then they may realize that their "plan" isn't going to work.

 

[B-Roy]

You first part is just bizarre and makes no sense. I suppose you are saying we should be able to pick up Granger because the Pacers have no shot at a title. The difference is I haven't heard about Granger being disgruntled, demanding a trade and being an auto-max superstar who can walk in two years with one year possibly being lost due to lockout with no trades that year...

No, I'm not saying we should be able to pick up Granger. It's just rhetoric. 25 teams in the league realistically know their chances of winning a title are zilch to none. It doesn't mean they should rebuild and "cut their losses". For example, Utah had little chance of contention when Boozer left, and aren't much better off with Jefferson. But it didn't stop them from making the deal anyways. Unless you want to claim that Utah is headed by a stupid general who doesn't know when to give Deron Williams back to the Blazers.

 

[B-Roy]

Got news for you: http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance

Losing does that. The Hornets had great attendance two years ago when they were one of the dark horse teams. Last year Paul missed almost half the season and the team crumbled.

 

[oldmangrouch]

The bolded leaks are what I meant. An unhappy Paul encourages other teams to low ball NOH who only gets MORE desperate over time.

Slight correction - *Shinn* gets more desperate, if the potential sale of the team falls through. None of us know how the potential buyer feels about all of this. He could be saying "trade Paul and I will increase my offer $50 million." He could also be saying "trade Paul and I cut my offer $50 million."

In any discussion between Paul and the team, the potential buyer is the invisible third party. That adds a wildcard to the game and makes the outcome even less predictable.

 

[noknobs]

Losing does that. The Hornets had great attendance two years ago when they were one of the dark horse teams. Last year Paul missed almost half the season and the team crumbled.

The year before they were still 19th in attendance, with one of the 3 or 4 best players in the game. Not exactly setting the world on fire. Looking at their roster and all the good teams in the west, I think more losing, and therefore more poor attendance is in store for them. IF all they care about is money, I think it makes more sense to cut their losses sooner rather than later.

 

[Blaze01]

They can open up the bidding to any team they want....but I don't see a lot of teams eager to throw away a ton of talent NO way, if Paul indicates that he won't sign there.....

I would agree that the potential lock-out, meaning lost year could really force NO hand as well.......

Whether they want to or not, they may be forced to trade him...they may not before the season, maybe they wait until the trade deadline...but if he indicates he wants to go, if they are smart (not a given) then they will look to deal him for the best package they can get.....

 

[maxiep]

No, it's a two year deal.

In terms of trading Paul, it's a one year deal. They have until the trade deadline and perhaps after this season and before July 1st. That's it. No moves can be made in a lockout situation.

(a) IF there IS a lockout, it's unlikely to cost the entire season

The NBA owners are going to the mattresses on this one. There will be a lockout, and it's going past the trade deadline. The two sides haven't been this far apart in decades. Both the players and the owners agree that the lockout will occur and it will be a long one.

But, I'll humor you. Let's say the lockout is short and Paul can be moved before the trade deadline in 2012. Who is going to give up big value for an expiring contract? He can opt out, so at that point he holds all the leverage.

, but (b) if it DID, you can bet your ass management would not agree to a deal that would let assets like Paul walk away without compensation.

How? He has the option to opt out. There comes a point where he's an unrestricted free agent. Just because they want to get value for Paul doesn't mean it's going to happen.

 

[B-Roy]

The year before they were still 19th in attendance, with one of the 3 or 4 best players in the game. Not exactly setting the world on fire. Looking at their roster and all the good teams in the west, I think more losing, and therefore more poor attendance is in store for them. IF all they care about is money, I think it makes more sense to cut their losses sooner rather than later.

In terms of total yes, but percentage wise, they were at 98.7% capacity, which puts them 8th in the league.

 

[Idog1976]

No, I'm not saying we should be able to pick up Granger. It's just rhetoric. 25 teams in the league realistically know their chances of winning a title are zilch to none. It doesn't mean they should rebuild and "cut their losses". For example, Utah had little chance of contention when Boozer left, and aren't much better off with Jefferson. But it didn't stop them from making the deal anyways. Unless you want to claim that Utah is headed by a stupid general who doesn't know when to give Deron Williams back to the Blazers.

I don't think you can compare a team lead by one of the best coaches in the league to NOH. It's possible Monty will be able to increase the value of his guys like Sloan, but I sincerely doubt it.

As to your greater point of me thinking that this league is becoming a bunch of farm teams and super teams, yes that is what I believe. There will soon be very, VERY few contenders and a bunch of also rans.

I don't think most people grasp how game changing the Miami team - and more importantly the LeBron and Bosh FA's moves - is to this league. As some have said the inmates are running the asylum, the players have suddenly realized their power via FA to play on the teams they want. This might very well be awful for the league, but the silver lining is as long as Paul Allen owns this team and we have Roy, Oden and LMA or minus one of those and add CP3, we are one of the contenders.

The league had a 8.5 on the richter this summer, and savvy teams are getting ahead of the curve and positioning themselves for the new CBA and also the new reality of super teams. Both players and teams should be very worried about the new CBA simply due to the uncertainty it presents. Portland is one of the most attractive teams at the moment, surely the most attractive small market team, due to PA's deep pockets.

If NOH is smart they deal Paul sooner rather then later. They may not be smart.

 

[noknobs]

In terms of total yes, but percentage wise, they were at 98.7% capacity, which puts them 8th in the league.

The point is, that in a dream season when they won 49 games and made the playoffs they still weren't at capacity in a small arena with one of the best players in the league. I don't see them repeating that season any time soon, and if their star player, once thought to be their savior, doesn't want to be there, I doubt that helps attendance either.

 

[OddEnormous]

Suprise suprise.

Agreed. It's surprising to read an article which starts out saying the Hornets will never deal him, then ends saying they might and will open it up to the entire league.

Great piece.