Forum Game How do you build a contender around Dame in the next couple years?

Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Users who are viewing this thread

I really think there are a lot of things that would have to happen that are between unlikely and just not going to happen. We can't be a contender with these two guards. Dame's defense is so weak that he needs a defensive specialist back there with him and Ant will never be that. So this first step probably falls under "just not going to happen" but we need Ant to have a big season that pushes his value up and then sign and trade him to a team that really needs a young lead guard with big time offense for a big 3 and D two guard.

We need Nas to come back healthy and shooting a little more consistently, this one is actually pretty likely.

We need to get lucky and win the number one pick which is highly unlikely and means the tank needs to be fully on because I think Jabari Smith will be ready from day one to make a huge impact on this team with his combination of length, athleticism, ability to put it on the floor, defensive instincts on the perimeter, weak side shot blocking and distance shooting, he's the perfect front court pairing with Nurk.

We need the Pelicans pick to convey to us as high as possible and we need to knock it out of the park.

Both picks need to be contributors next season and that is also highly unlikely but could be done.

We need to use the remaining cap space to put one or two more really solid contributors on the bench.

The rotation will have to be Dame, 3 and D guy from Ant trade, Nas or a better SF if there was one that we could land in free agency or with the Pelicans pick, Jabari, Nurk, just looking at the draft our Pelicans pick will likely be a wing so either that wing or Nas, FA front court player, FA guard that can instigate the offense but can also defend multiple positions, hopefully some of our young guys that will get a lot of opportunity this season and we have control of Trendon, GB3, Keon and maybe even Didi really pop and can provide the rest of the depth we need.

or

There is also the possibility Josh Hart could be that 3 and D big guard next to Dame then that would only cost us 13M. Now for really unlikely: If Ant just has a massive end to the season and the Celtics keep sucking (compared to their expectations) and we can get someone they like with the Pelicans pick maybe S&T Ant+Pelicans pick to the Celtics for Jaylen Brown... I know it's crazy talk but maybe just maybe. Let's say Nurk re-signs for 15-18M for that first season. With the new cap the first pick Jabari Parker would make about 10M. We have Nas, Justise, Keon, Didi and Greg making a total of 15M. We could probably re-sign Trendon for starting at 3M. So that's 10 guys at 128M that we've spent not having signed anyone but our players and picks. Since we didn't use any free cap space to sign another free agent we would have the full 12M MLE and might be able to get Tyus Jones for that. Then fill out the roster with three min level guy but they should be young GLeaguers and undrafted free agents at 1M a piece. That would make Vulcan really happy because it would put us right at 143M when the tax will start at 145M.

PG: Dame, Tyus
SG: Hart, Keon
SF: Jaylen, Nas, Justice
PF: Jabari, GB3
C: Nurk, Trendon


I left Didi and the three min level young guys off the depth chart because they won't play much at all. I know that is a very unlikely rotation but it's not completely impossible. If it happened that would be a deep 11 man rotation with two all stars in Dame and Jaylen and a guy that will probably be rookie of the year in Jabari. That team could contend as early as next year but so much would have to go right for us.

These scenarios I came up with are outlandish fantasies, they're not completely impossible but they are highly highly unlikely and highlight just how unlikely it is that we build a contender around Dame and I don't think the organization agrees with me about Dame and Ant, so I actually think that makes building a contender around Dame impossible. So my real expectation is that we re-sign or match an offer on Ant for a little too much, we re-sign Nurk for a little too much, we get two guys that need development in the draft. We strike out with the attempts to get an impact free agent or an impact guy through an unbalanced trade and use our cap space on someone youngish, overpaid and underwhelming. That result to the off season will get Cronin fired and an outside GM hired. It will also put Dame on the edge and after it becomes apparent that the team isn't built to contend and that him and Ant are about as complementary as him and CJ were, Dame will ask out pretty early in the season which will be granted to him buy the deadline. Let's just hope we get a really nice haul for him.

We will still have Ant, Nas, GB3, two new lottery picks and most likely Trendon to go around what is hopefully something special we get for Dame. Hopefully we'll also dump Nurk for draft assets and an expiring or young players. That will be a real reset.

I guess the big question at that point becomes what year will Chicago finally get our pick?
 
Absolutely
If cap space is an asset that gives us the ability to rebuild then I agree with. The sad truth of it though is that cap space is not that for our team. The other sad truth is that we didn't get enough in terms of draft capitol to make the idea of unbalanced trades plausible. So in reality we absolutely do not have more assets or a better chance at a successful rebuild than we did two weeks ago. Those players needed to be moved but if the idea was to rebuild around Dame those players needed to bring back more consolidated win now talent and if the idea was to hit reset, those players should have been traded for far more first round draft capital and bad contracts. This thing is being mismanaged thinking that we can either sign high level free agents or that other teams are going to make moves like we just did giving up legit talent that equal more wins for cap space and very little draft capital or value in the way of young prospects. That's not how real GMs do it.
 
It’s such a shitty list it’s depressing. Zach Lavine? Kevon Looney and let Nurk go? I don’t know. It is not a good year for FA
When we have cap space, no one is available…lol. Just sad
 
Step 1: Move Blazers to Las Vegas.

Step 2a: Acquire, rename, and move the Bucks to Portland.
Step 2b: Waive Dame.
Step 2c: Threaten/blackmail/bribe all other teams to not claim.
Step 2d: Sell & Rename the Las Vegas (Whatever's)

Step 3: Sign Dame to the new look Bu...Blazers.
 
Absolutely

Now note I didnt' say flexibility. I said assets. That doesn't mean empty salary, but actual talented players people desire or real assets such as draft picks that teams value. With that in mind can you expand upon how you think our TPE's, singular first round pick, a grip of 2nd rounders, Josh Hart, Keon Johnson, and Winslow is better than CJ, Nance, Powell and Roco? I'm not saying you're wrong. I want to hear your argument on that and I am sorry if you have to repeat yourself clearly there are several threads on this issue and some of them are hella long. You can copy and paste a response if you want.

I don't see how we can trade what we have left to trade (Nas, Nurk, Keon, Justise, and Hart) with TPE and get a star forward. I don't see how we can trade Ant at this point nor do I think we should as we then would be losing the only other star potential guy other than Lillard who has realized that potential.
 
It’s such a shitty list it’s depressing. Zach Lavine? Kevon Looney and let Nurk go? I don’t know. It is not a good year for FA
The PFs look particularly pedestrian, which dampens my hope of receiving an allstar PF.
 
The Blazers do not necessarily have more trade assets, they just have more liquid assets. Moving CJ's big contract or Norm's long contract requires special circumstances and a limited number of partners are available for it. What the Blazers have now are liquid assets that can be moved easily - so in theory, it would be easier to trade now.
 
Now note I didnt' say flexibility. I said assets. That doesn't mean empty salary, but actual talented players people desire or real assets such as draft picks that teams value. With that in mind can you expand upon how you think our TPE's, singular first round pick, a grip of 2nd rounders, Josh Hart, Keon Johnson, and Winslow is better than CJ, Nance, Powell and Roco? I'm not saying you're wrong. I want to hear your argument on that and I am sorry if you have to repeat yourself clearly there are several threads on this issue and some of them are hella long. You can copy and paste a response if you want.

I don't see how we can trade what we have left to trade (Nas, Nurk, Keon, Justise, and Hart) with TPE and get a star forward. I don't see how we can trade Ant at this point nor do I think we should as we then would be losing the only other star potential guy other than Lillard who has realized that potential.
Now note I didnt' say flexibility. I said assets. That doesn't mean empty salary, but actual talented players people desire or real assets such as draft picks that teams value. With that in mind can you expand upon how you think our TPE's, singular first round pick, a grip of 2nd rounders, Josh Hart, Keon Johnson, and Winslow is better than CJ, Nance, Powell and Roco? I'm not saying you're wrong. I want to hear your argument on that and I am sorry if you have to repeat yourself clearly there are several threads on this issue and some of them are hella long. You can copy and paste a response if you want.

I don't see how we can trade what we have left to trade (Nas, Nurk, Keon, Justise, and Hart) with TPE and get a star forward. I don't see how we can trade Ant at this point nor do I think we should as we then would be losing the only other star potential guy other than Lillard who has realized that potential.

Did we get better assets no did we get more flexibility yes. It was stated by another poster we have
Now note I didnt' say flexibility. I said assets. That doesn't mean empty salary, but actual talented players people desire or real assets such as draft picks that teams value. With that in mind can you expand upon how you think our TPE's, singular first round pick, a grip of 2nd rounders, Josh Hart, Keon Johnson, and Winslow is better than CJ, Nance, Powell and Roco? I'm not saying you're wrong. I want to hear your argument on that and I am sorry if you have to repeat yourself clearly there are several threads on this issue and some of them are hella long. You can copy and paste a response if you want.

I don't see how we can trade what we have left to trade (Nas, Nurk, Keon, Justise, and Hart) with TPE and get a star forward. I don't see how we can trade Ant at this point nor do I think we should as we then would be losing the only other star potential guy other than Lillard who has realized that potential.

Do we have better assets no but flexibility may be even more valuable and allow us way more possibilities. To me no one on this team is untouchable if you want to build a championship you have to sacrifice. Say Boston or lakers want to blow it up and wants Ant or Nas, trade exception, 2 first rounders for Brown or Davis do you pass that up, maybe but you have the option to make a deal like that. Am I disappointed we didn’t get 1st in clips deal absolutely but I’ve moved on and see the some possibilities
 
Kevin Durant is 6'10", LBJ is 6'9", Kawhi and Luka are 6'7" none of them are remotely defendable by guys who are 6'5" tall unless they are exceptional defenders which none of the SF's we have are, and yes I am aware that length matters. They have Winslow at an inch taller than Nas on ESPN which is what I went with. Any reason you decided to be rude rather than just state your points?
You brought a know it all tone (AF!) and then spewed BS. If you're aware that length matters, why do you keep listing height which truly doesn't? Arguably the best post defender in the league is Draymond, & he measured less then 6'6. It's especially odd that you're drawing your conclusions from a hype site like ESPN instead of relying on actual measurements. On their respective teams, all time freaks of nature LBJ & Durant are PFs. They also didn't attend their combines, which allows them to be listed at whatever height they choose to be. Luka didn't attend his combine either & Kawhi plays PF for the Clips. Wading through some past combines over my coffee this morning, various SFs who did attend their combines and came in with wingspans, standing reach & weights comparable to the two aforementioned Blazers include Miles Bridges, Harrison Barnes, TJ Warren & Gordon Hayward. I'm sure I could come up with many more examples of NBA starting 3s who bring more or less the same size.

STOMP
 
Last edited:
So do you feel we have more assets and ability to rebuild now than we did two weeks ago?

Ability - Yes
Assets - No

The potential Lottery pick could be quite good.
Hart/Winslow can be solid role players.
Keon, Didi & Hughes.....meh.

This team needs a legit #2. They gave up a 2.5, a 3.5 and a couple solid role players. We are a long way from even replacing them, but miles away from getting a #2 which this team desperately needs.
 
Since we are talking about Keon Johnson..... Since he is a short guard, it seems he is not as asset that we want to keep long term. So I would want to see the team do whatever they can this season to develop him as an asset that other teams would find attractive. Work with him a lot and when he looks ready, play him a lot. Try to put him into situations where he can succeed.
 
Man I have some real reservations about using one or both lottery picks for trades. It’s funny because I was all about trading our three picks for immediate help back in the Collins draft but at this point I want to draft the BPA. I’m not confident we can put a real contender around Dame.

I'm happy however it turns out because at least we're giving it a fucking shot.
 
Ability - Yes
Assets - No

The potential Lottery pick could be quite good.
Hart/Winslow can be solid role players.
Keon, Didi & Hughes.....meh.

This team needs a legit #2. They gave up a 2.5, a 3.5 and a couple solid role players. We are a long way from even replacing them, but miles away from getting a #2 which this team desperately needs.
And the worst part is that Neil traded away a bunch of first rounders that will probably be really good if we are trash. It could extend the rebuild.
 


Some targets to look at, where major change might arise in a playoff/reg season flameout (in my order of most prone for change)

- BOS - Jaylen Brown. That's it.
- BRK - Simmons, yet again
- ATL - Hunter/Collins, expensive roster already in a disappointing year.
- WSH- Do they pay Beal?
- NYK - Randle

- UTA - Gobert/Mitchell already fracturing
- LAL - Are they tired of Davis yet?
- NOP - What happens to Zion?
 
These Cronin apologists are now saying we didn't get back assets, but we have liquidity and flexibility to improve the roster???

No team is going to give us a star for "liquidity" or "flexibility". Would you want to trade Dame away for liquidity and flexibility? No, you'd want either starters or 1st round picks back, those are "assets" and those are whats required to get stars. Liquidity and flexibility are like a 2nd round pick, they can get you some tiny improvement, but they are insignificant when going for stars.

Cronin screwed up step 1 of the retool/rebuild. Or ownership overruled him with $ savings taking priority over all else. Now the team isn't in a position to build a contender around Dame, so they will have to pivot to a long term losing rebuild.
 
These Cronin apologists are now saying we didn't get back assets, but we have liquidity and flexibility to improve the roster???

No team is going to give us a star for "liquidity" or "flexibility".

Would you want to trade Dame away for liquidity and flexibility? No, you'd want either starters or 1st round picks back, those are "assets"

Cronin screwed up step 1 of the retool/rebuild. Or ownership overruled him with $ savings taking priority over all else. Now the team isn't in a position to build a contender around Dame, so they will have to pivot to a long term losing rebuild.
another consideration... those two lottery picks we have will start to lose value the moment the picks are made. if we are serious about building around Dame and an actual star is available for draft picks, we can't wait too long to trade them. Just need to see where they land after the lottery.

This was the dilemma GS has faced the last two years. They had the 2nd pick in 2020, and the 7th and 14th picks last year, and were deliberating trading them for vets for so long that they lost value. Wiseman, for example... does he have any value right now? That pick coulda brought back a legitimate star like Beal as was rumored.
 


Some targets to look at, where major change might arise in a playoff/reg season flameout (in my order of most prone for change)

- BOS - Jaylen Brown. That's it.
- BRK - Simmons, yet again
- ATL - Hunter/Collins, expensive roster already in a disappointing year.
- WSH- Do they pay Beal?
- NYK - Randle

- UTA - Gobert/Mitchell already fracturing
- LAL - Are they tired of Davis yet?
- NOP - What happens to Zion?


Brown is the guy that I have wanted for a while........ but I think Dame is who would have to go out to bring him back.

Would Brown/Smart/FRP be enough value for Dame? Two FRP?

I still think that if we want to try to give it one more go with Dame, we have to trade Simons. Would Simons/Cap space/FRP be enough to get Brown? I don't think so honestly.
 
These Cronin apologists are now saying we didn't get back assets, but we have liquidity and flexibility to improve the roster???

First - the apologist term is un-necessary. Many people, myself included, said that he took the first step - and it is to be determined if it will be a success or not.

Second - Of course the Blazers got assets, on a one over the other in a vacuum - even lesser assets - but these are assets that are much easier to utilize. If you need to get an asset that is 100, you have 2 assets that are 75 and 70 but are hard to exchange - and you replace these with assets that are worth 60 and 40 that are easier to exchange - you have an easier path to get that 100 value asset - even if the 2 assets before were worth more in a vacuum.

If you have land in the desert that is worth a million dollars on paper but no-takers, and you do not have money for food - that asset is pretty much worthless. Liquidity is important - and many businesses do not understand that and fail - and the NeO era Blazers are a classic example of this lack of understanding. Basic business acumen that is unfortunately, too often missed.
 
Last edited:
another consideration... those two lottery picks we have will start to lose value the moment the picks are made. if we are serious about building around Dame and an actual star is available for draft picks, we can't wait too long to trade them. Just need to see where they land after the lottery.

This was the dilemma GS has faced the last two years. They had the 2nd pick in 2020, and the 7th and 14th picks last year, and were deliberating trading them for vets for so long that they lost value. Wiseman, for example... does he have any value right now? That pick coulda brought back a legitimate star like Beal as was rumored.

Thats a great point. The issue is we have such a baren roster now, we wouldn't want to send out every asset we could and end up like the Lakers with LeBron and AD.

Plus Ant is a restricted free agent, so we can't trade him, and can't trade Nurk being an unrestricted free agent either.

So what is the most we can offer at the draft; two possible lottery picks, Little, plus our future picks conditional with language about conveying two years after a pick goes to Chicago.

We probably end up in the same boat as GS where we just use the picks. If we really wanted to keep more options open to bring in stars for Dame, maybe we could consider flipping the 2022 picks for future draft picks, then making trades in free agency with those picks. I agree using the picks lessens their appeal in trades, its like driving a new car off the lot.
 
First - the apologist term is un-necessary. Many people, myself included, said that he took the first step - and it is to be determined if it will be a success or not.

Second - Of course the Blazers got assets, on a one over the other in a vacuum - even lesser assets - but these are assets that are much easier to utilize. If you need to get an asset that is 100, you have tow assets that are 75 and 70 but are hard to exchange - and you replace these with assets that are worth 60 and 40 that are easier to exchange - you have an easier path to get that 100 value asset - even if the 2 assets before were worth more in a vacuum.

If you have land in the desert that is worth a million dollars on paper but no-takers, and you do not have money for food - that asset is pretty much worthless. Liquidity is important - and many businesses do not understand that and fail - and the NeO era Blazers are a classic example of this lack of understanding. Basic business acumen that is unfortunately, too often missed.

Yeah I agree with this analogy.

Blazers had 200 in Dame and a 75 and 70 but needed to get to 400 to contend. So they were 55 away from contending. Possibly one good break, or likely two breaks from contending.

Now they have Dame at 200 and a 60 and 40. They are 100 away from contending. So there is nearly double the improvements needed to contend as before. Can they trade the 60 for a 160? That is beyond unlikely. I guess in theory its possible, but it was much more likely to trade a 70 for 125.

Either road is likely to fail, so I think some fans are just relieved there is a change. But the change put the team in a worse position than they were a week ago.
 
We need Ant to ball out and build some value.

Then hope and pray Boston falters and Tatum/Brown start fracturing in the playoffs.

Then S&T Ant for Brown the moment FA starts.
 
Yeah I agree with this analogy.

Blazers had 200 in Dame and a 75 and 70 but needed to get to 400 to contend. So they were 55 away from contending. Possibly one good break, or likely two breaks from contending.

Now they have Dame at 200 and a 60 and 40. They are 100 away from contending. So there is nearly double the improvements needed to contend as before. Can they trade the 60 for a 160? That is beyond unlikely. I guess in theory its possible, but it was much more likely to trade a 70 for 125.

Well, I think the Blazers view it as 200 in Dame, 60 in Ant with a possibility of being a 100 over time, 75 in CJ with no chance of improvement that was paid like a 100, 70 in Norm that was properly paid, but because of the long contract - hard to move and is not likely to get any better and a 70 in Nurk which might be a 75 to 80 if he ever becomes consistent. Their plan seems to be to resign Ant hoping he will continue to improve, resign Nurk hoping that at worst he stays the same and flip the 60 and 40 for something closer to a 100.

The other problem with keepin the 75 and 70 - was that when they played together with Dame, you did not get 345, you only got 300 because they did not fit together. That's exactly what happened there - and as Cronin himself said - the hard part starts now. If he can not flip the 60 and 40 (TPE, Cap space, draft picks) and retain Ant and Nurk - it was a bad trade. If he can, it was a genius trade. But at least he has an easier path to get to the genius part.
 
We need Ant to ball out and build some value.

Then hope and pray Boston falters and Tatum/Brown start fracturing in the playoffs.

Then S&T Ant for Brown the moment FA starts.

This is where I am as well. Try to get Brown for Ant.

Try to get Collins or Randle with one of our FRP.
 
The one way I see we could really contend with Dame is if we won the lottery, or even top 3.

That gives us the ammo to go after a star to pair with Dame. Otherwise we just don't have the assets.
 
The one way I see we could really contend with Dame is if we won the lottery, or even top 3.

That gives us the ammo to go after a star to pair with Dame. Otherwise we just don't have the assets.

Another question might be, any way we trade Dame at the draft for a package with top 3 pick? That might ultimately be the smarter move.

If you trade Dame, you absolutely do not trade the picks.
 
Back
Top