Forum Game How do you build a contender around Dame in the next couple years?

[SharpesTriumph]

Though trading a top3 pick for a star has me wondering..... Any way we trade Dame at the draft for a package with a top 3 pick coming to us? That might ultimately be the smarter move, especially if we can't do deals to bring a 2nd star here.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

If you trade Dame, you absolutely do not trade the picks.

Yes I agree its one road or the other.

 

[illmatic99]

This is where I am as well. Try to get Brown for Ant.

Try to get Collins or Randle with one of our FRP.

Also want to gauge in the next 26 games if Ant can outperform his next contract and has a ceiling as a near max player. If he does, I think we've made all the moves to say good bye to Dame, and start a longer rebuild.

 

[Natebishop3]

Though trading a top3 pick for a star has me wondering..... Any way we trade Dame at the draft for a package with a top 3 pick coming to us? That might ultimately be the smarter move, especially if we can't do deals to bring a 2nd star here.

If Dame is going out, we really need a legitimate young star coming back. That's why I like Jaylen Brown so much. He's only 25. He's a legit really good player.

 

[Natebishop3]

Also want to gauge in the next 26 games if Ant can outperform his next contract and has a ceiling as a near max player. If he does, I think we've made all the moves to say good bye to Dame, and start a longer rebuild.

Yup. There's much to be learned in the next few months.

 

[illmatic99]

The one way I see we could really contend with Dame is if we won the lottery, or even top 3.

That gives us the ammo to go after a star to pair with Dame. Otherwise we just don't have the assets.

If we get top 3, I wouldn't be too quick to trade those picks. Phoenix has shown the template of a 37 yr old aging star with a 25 yr star and a 22 yr budding star winning big.

Dame/Banchero/Ant is a ridiculous trio to build from, especially if Ant outperforms a 20 mil deal and Banchero remains on his rookie contract for 3 more years.

 

[Natebishop3]

If we get top 3, I wouldn't be too quick to trade those picks. Phoenix has shown the template of a 37 yr old aging star with a 25 yr star and a 22 yr budding star winning big.

Dame/Banchero/Ant is a ridiculous trio to build from, especially if Ant outperforms a 20 mil deal and Banchero remains on his rookie contract for 3 more years.

Ant would have to become a defensive dynamo for it to work.

 

[illmatic99]

Ant would have to become a defensive dynamo for it to work.

Not if we have near All NBA caliber defense at at least 2 of the other three positions. And with 96 guard minutes to go around, it would be fairly easy to stagger Dame/Ant.

We just have gauge if Ant can have a better ceiling than CJ did. I think he's already shown more play-making chops than CJ did during his tenure as PG.

 

[Natebishop3]

Not if we have near All NBA caliber defense at at least 2 of the other three positions. And with 96 guard minutes to go around, it would be fairly easy to stagger Dame/Ant.

We just have gauge if Ant can have a better ceiling than CJ did. I think he's already shown more play-making chops than CJ did during his tenure as PG.

My hope is that Chauncey got to Ant before Stotts ruined him.

I think Dame/CJ operated under Stotts' no-accountability environment for too long. I don't think CJ is going to change. I don't think Dame is going to change. My hope is that Ant can change.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

If we get top 3, I wouldn't be too quick to trade those picks. Phoenix has shown the template of a 37 yr old aging star with a 25 yr star and a 22 yr budding star winning big.

Dame/Banchero/Ant is a ridiculous trio to build from, especially if Ant outperforms a 20 mil deal and Banchero remains on his rookie contract for 3 more years.

You list a really good option to keep the pick. To trade it, I'd want a legit star coming back for a top 3 pick, if its Jaylen Brown then I do it for anyone in the draft. If that level of star is not available, then your plan is great.

Step 1 is winning a top pick in the lotto!

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Not if we have near All NBA caliber defense at at least 2 of the other three positions. And with 96 guard minutes to go around, it would be fairly easy to stagger Dame/Ant.

We just have gauge if Ant can have a better ceiling than CJ did. I think he's already shown more play-making chops than CJ did during his tenure as PG.

Yeah I think its important we don't over react from the failures of DameCJ and avoid similar benefits at all costs.

If you pair DameCJ with all stars at other positions their post seasons might have looked pretty fucking different. Instead we had Aminu and Harkless with a one arm Kanter getting to the WCF.

Dame and Ant need numerous great defenders on the roster, and proper schemes to match.

 

[wizenheimer]

So what is the most we can offer at the draft; two possible lottery picks, Little, plus our future picks conditional with language about conveying two years after a pick goes to Chicago.

I'm thinking Portland can't offer both first's between the lottery and the draft because of the Septien rule. But could certainly negotiate with teams and agree to select the players they want, then complete the trade after the draft. I don't believe they can offer a future 1st, even after the draft, because the earliest pick they could offer is the 2030 1st and that exceeds the 7 year limit

We need Ant to ball out and build some value.

Then hope and pray Boston falters and Tatum/Brown start fracturing in the playoffs.

Then S&T Ant for Brown the moment FA starts.

big problem will be that Simons will be BYC. If he signs for 20M first year salary, the Blazers would only get a 10M trade credit. Brown will be making 26.7M. The trade would be legal for Boston but not for Portland. In order to take back 26.7M in salary, Portland would have to send out 21.3M. So they'd need to add 11.3M more salary. Josh Hart would get them there and the trade would still be legal from Boston's POV. That would leave the Blazers thin at guard, but Brown has played SG a bunch in his career

another possibility: Blazers have the 7th pick; they use it on a player of Boston's choosing (or not). Then sign that player at about 6M first year salary. Blazers could then trade Simons + signed 6th pick + Winslow + Louzada/Johnson for Brown. That actually seems like a nice haul for Boston. (kind of recall the CBA saying a S&T couldn't be combined with other players but maybe that was an artifact of a previous CBA)

if Portland wants to go all in on building around Dame:

1) TPE + one of the picks for Jeremai Grant

) Simons + the other pick + Winslow + filler for Brown

Dame
Brown
Little/Hart
Grant
Nurkic

is that a contender?

 

[illmatic99]

Dame
Brown
Little/Hart
Grant
Nurkic

is that a contender?

better than where we've been. much more balanced skillset and good defenders 2-5.

 

[MickZagger]

If Dame is going out, we really need a legitimate young star coming back. That's why I like Jaylen Brown so much. He's only 25. He's a legit really good player.

Yeah I like him a lot too. He’s also not the type to seek a large market. A little more depth to him than popping bottles and chasing pussy.

Elite defender too.

 

[wizenheimer]

better than where we've been. much more balanced skillset and good defenders 2-5.

yeah, I don't think there's any doubt that team would be the best since Aldridge, and likely better

the biggest issue is would Grant accept being the #3 option?

 

[illmatic99]

Yeah I like him a lot too. He’s also not the type to seek a large market. A little more depth to him than popping bottles and chasing pussy.

Elite defender too.

same agency as Dame too, fwiw.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

if Portland wants to go all in on building around Dame:

1) TPE + one of the picks for Jeremai Grant

) Simons + the other pick + Winslow + filler for Brown

Dame
Brown
Little/Hart
Grant
Nurkic

is that a contender?

Yeah I'd do that. Detroit might, but I don't see Boston doing it.

I'd start Hart at SG, Brown at SF, and Little off the bench.

 

[wizenheimer]

Yeah I'd do that. Detroit might, but I don't see Boston doing it.

I'd start Hart at SG, Brown at SF, and Little off the bench.

like you guys were saying, it depends on how Boston would value Simons and if they are ready to break up the Tatum/Brown duo. Of course, if Brown is available there will be a lot of bidders

 

[Haakzilla]

like you guys were saying, it depends on how Boston would value Simons and if they are ready to break up the Tatum/Brown duo. Of course, if Brown is available there will be a lot of bidders

...I would think pretty low considering they just acquired White from Spurs to be their "perfect" PG and they have this Pritchard guy that appears to be the "perfect" backup PG

 

[Wizard Mentor]

I see absolutely no problem in acquiring a proven All-Star PF using nothing but the TPE, cap space and maybe a second round pick….

As long as the PF is named Kevin Love.

Kevin's contract and I have a Hate/Love relationship....

 

[SharpesTriumph]

...I would think pretty low considering they just acquired White from Spurs to be their "perfect" PG and they have this Pritchard guy that appears to be the "perfect" backup PG

Yeah it seems beyond unlikely Boston would look at trading Brown. I'm not sure they'd even want to swap him for Dame.

But I guess the idea might be more that an all star on some team will be available that we currently don't expect. We usually have a few switch a year.

Can Cronin gather enough assets to make a push to trade for one and pair with Dame? Neil never could.

 

[Natebishop3]

Dame
Brown
Little/Hart
Grant
Nurkic

Yes.... if we stay healthy and Grant buys in.

 

[Natebishop3]

Yeah it seems beyond unlikely Boston would look at trading Brown. I'm not sure they'd even want to swap him for Dame.

But I guess the idea might be more that an all star on some team will be available that we currently don't expect. We usually have a few switch a year.

Can Cronin gather enough assets to make a push to trade for one and pair with Dame? Neil never could.

I think Boston is in the same boat that we have been. The Tatum/Brown pairing isn't working. Tatum is still very young. I think you put him with someone like Dame and they have a legit shot at contending. Tatum is better than Brown.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

I think Boston is in the same boat that we have been. The Tatum/Brown pairing isn't working. Tatum is still very young. I think you put him with someone like Dame and they have a legit shot at contending. Tatum is better than Brown.

You could be right, we will have to see how the year ends for them.

I also think a lot of teams will be scared off from Dame's injury. They probably want to see him healthy and playing as his old self before giving up max value.

Even if Boston offers that trade I just don't see the point for us. Neither Ant or Brown are a #1 option on a contending team, so it seems like it would have all the issues of Boston's current situation, or the DameCJ duo, but without a Dame/Tatum level #1 star player. Brown will be 26 next year which yes isn't old, but athletic wings start to decline before 30 and I don't see how we build a contender around him in 2 years. Probably easier to just keep Dame and hope peak years of his extends past 35 as Chris Paul's did.

 

[wizenheimer]

You could be right, we will have to see how the year ends for them.

I also think a lot of teams will be scared off from Dame's injury. They probably want to see him healthy and playing as his old self before giving up max value.

Even if Boston offers that trade I just don't see the point for us. Neither Ant or Brown are a #1 option on a contending team, so it seems like it would have all the issues of Boston's current situation, or the DameCJ duo, but without a Dame/Tatum level #1 star player. Brown will be 26 next year which yes isn't old, but athletic wings start to decline before 30 and I don't see how we build a contender around him in 2 years. Probably easier to just keep Dame and hope peak years of his extends past 35 as Chris Paul's did.

this is the issue with all the trade-Dame sentiments. Portland's problem during Dame's tenure, or at least since the Aldridge team, is that they had a worthy #1 option, but never a worthy #2 option. They didn't have a 2nd elite talent even though olshey was convinced they did

It's premature at this point to say that Simons is a worthy #2 option. He might in a couple of years, but he also might be a #3. Brown may be a worthy #2. But even if you have a pair of #2 options, it doesn't make up for not having a #1.

so the question is which option is easier to find, a #1 or a #2? If it's a #2, why trade away a #1?

This all sounds like potty talk

 

[oldmangrouch]

First - the apologist term is un-necessary. Many people, myself included, said that he took the first step - and it is to be determined if it will be a success or not.

Second - Of course the Blazers got assets, on a one over the other in a vacuum - even lesser assets - but these are assets that are much easier to utilize. If you need to get an asset that is 100, you have 2 assets that are 75 and 70 but are hard to exchange - and you replace these with assets that are worth 60 and 40 that are easier to exchange - you have an easier path to get that 100 value asset - even if the 2 assets before were worth more in a vacuum.

If you have land in the desert that is worth a million dollars on paper but no-takers, and you do not have money for food - that asset is pretty much worthless. Liquidity is important - and many businesses do not understand that and fail - and the NeO era Blazers are a classic example of this lack of understanding. Basic business acumen that is unfortunately, too often missed.

The problem is that cap space doesn't have the same value to all teams, or in all years. Portland has always struggled to sign FAs, and the pickings this year are slim anyway. As for the trade exceptions, they are only of value to a team willing to use them to take on salary. I'd say there is a better than even chance the Blazers don't take advantage of them.

 

[andalusian]

The problem is that cap space doesn't have the same value to all teams, or in all years. Portland has always struggled to sign FAs, and the pickings this year are slim anyway. As for the trade exceptions, they are only of value to a team willing to use them to take on salary. I'd say there is a better than even chance the Blazers don't take advantage of them.

Of course. The question we have to ask is - are the Blazers selling us lies because all they wanted was salary relief or do they mean what they said and they intend to try and use these tools.

I am not going to look for conspiracy theories and going to take the Blazers at their word that they want to try and use these tools - since I have no way of knowing what is really happening behind the scenes - this seems like a reasonable expectation for me. If they succeed or not - well, that's the $64K question, isn't it?

 

[oldmangrouch]

Of course. The question we have to ask is - are the Blazers selling us lies because all they wanted was salary relief or do they mean what they said and they intend to try and use these tools.

I am not going to look for conspiracy theories and going to take the Blazers at their word that they want to try and use these tools - since I have no way of knowing what is really happening behind the scenes - this seems like a reasonable expectation for me. If they succeed or not - well, that's the $64K question, isn't it?

We will just have to agree to disagree. I don't think it is a "conspiracy theory" that team front offices BS fans all the time.

 

[andalusian]

We will just have to agree to disagree. I don't think it is a "conspiracy theory" that team front offices BS fans all the time.

In this case, they are BS'ing Dame as well - or Dame is BS'ing the fans and wants out. I do not believe it in this case, but, what do I know.

 

[Natebishop3]

this is the issue with all the trade-Dame sentiments. Portland's problem during Dame's tenure, or at least since the Aldridge team, is that they had a worthy #1 option, but never a worthy #2 option. They didn't have a 2nd elite talent even though olshey was convinced they did

It's premature at this point to say that Simons is a worthy #2 option. He might in a couple of years, but he also might be a #3. Brown may be a worthy #2. But even if you have a pair of #2 options, it doesn't make up for not having a #1.

so the question is which option is easier to find, a #1 or a #2? If it's a #2, why trade away a #1?

This all sounds like potty talk

I would have 100% agreed with you, but is Dame going to be a #1 next season? We don't know what he's going to look like post-surgery. And if he is a #1, how much longer will he be a #1? 2-3 years?