I Don't Get Why The Upcoming Tebow Spot Is So Controversial?

[Minstrel]

No, but do you really think that a fetus doesn't deserve the chance to grow into something that can become a wonderful human being? Why should that chance at life be taken away because someone else was irresponsible and careless?

If the self-awareness isn't there, how is an abortion "taking away a chance" at a long, wonderful, fulfilling life anymore than refraining from sex? In both cases, you could have created a new life and decided you weren't ready for it--thereby taking away that "chance to grow into something that can be a wonderful human being."

If you feel that a fetus is already a person and therefore abortion is murder, I can understand the opposition to abortion (though I disagree). But if you agree that there's no personhood yet...what's really the differentiator in terms of "lost opportunity" between abortion and not having sex/having protected sex?

 

[Ed O]

1. Roe v. Wade was, in my opinion, a terrible decision by the Supreme Court. The penumbra argument is weak and I hope that the decision is overturned.
2. I would vote to legalize abortion in my state (Washington). I, personally, feel whatever qualms I have about it are less important than the impact of unwanted pregnancy on individuals and society.
3. I don't think that I should have much say in whether abortion is legal in, say, Kansas. If federal laws can be passed outlawing it, then that's one thing. To have the most undemocratic institution in our government install it on the entire country strikes me as misguided at best.
4. I wonder how people would react if the ad were done by a pro-choice group, showing an individual who grew up from an unwanted pregnancy to become a drug addict and a child molester and a killer... and talking about how if he had been aborted the world would have been a better place.

Ed O.

 

[ABM]

I wonder how people would react if the ad were done by a pro-choice group, showing an individual who grew up from an unwanted pregnancy to become a drug addict and a child molester and a killer... and talking about how if he had been aborted the world would have been a better place.

Ed O.

Talk about a ludicrous idea/comparison.

 

[Minstrel]

[*]I wonder how people would react if the ad were done by a pro-choice group, showing an individual who grew up from an unwanted pregnancy to become a drug addict and a child molester and a killer... and talking about how if he had been aborted the world would have been a better place.

I'm not interested in a states' rights debate, but to address this wondering: I think it would be silly, just as I think the Tebow commercial is silly. This debate is bigger than some chosen/crafted anecdotes designed to elicit a disproportionate emotional response.

 

[blazerboy30]

Do you (everyone not just Sebastian at this point) really think a fetus has more self-awareness than a dog?

Is it legal for the owner of a dog to just decide to kill it on a whim? I honestly don't know, I'm asking.

Regardless of that... is "self-awareness" really a good litmus test for whether somebody has the right to life?

 

[ABM]

Just as I think the Tebow commercial is silly.

Oh, you've seen it?

 

[Minstrel]

Oh, you've seen it?

From descriptions of it, just as I'm going by Ed's description of a hypothetical commercial. I haven't seen that either.

 

[ABM]

From descriptions of it....

Interesting. What do you find silly about it?

 

[Minstrel]

Interesting. What do you find silly about it?

Exactly what I said: this debate is bigger than trying to use anecdotes to define the issues. It's great that Tebow could have been aborted but wasn't and grew up to be a college football hero. So what (in regards to the abortion debate)? It's as meaningless as a single example of an unwanted pregnancy that the woman was forced to go through with, leading her or the father to emotionally abuse the child culminating finally in the suicide of the child at age 15.

What purpose do such intentionally emotionally manipulative anecdotes serve in enlightening or educating people about the issue? Nothing, IMO. It's simplistic propaganda.

 

[ABM]

Exactly what I said: this debate is bigger than trying to use anecdotes to define the issues. It's great that Tebow could have been aborted but wasn't and grew up to be a college football hero. So what (in regards to the abortion debate)? It's as meaningless as a single example of an unwanted pregnancy that the woman was forced to go through with, leading her or the father to emotionally abuse the child culminating finally in the suicide of the child at age 15.

What purpose do such intentionally emotionally manipulative anecdotes serve in enlightening or educating people about the issue? Nothing, IMO. It's simplistic propaganda.

I call the ad concept food for consideration....especially in regards to those youth Tebow potentially might be a role model to. My guess is, Tim will make follow-up educational efforts relating the potential dangers of pre-marital sex as well as abortions.

Arm the kids with reasonable and factual education.

 

[Minstrel]

I call the ad concept food for consideration

Sure, as much as Ed's hypothetical example is. Also known as "cheap attempt at emotional manipulation" as far as I'm concerned.

Arm the kids with reasonable and factual education.

Oh, good. So you agree with sex education in schools, including how to use condoms and other birth control? Safe sex reduces abortions.

 

[ABM]

Sure, as much as Ed's hypothetical example is. Also known as "cheap attempt at emotional manipulation" as far as I'm concerned.

Sure, saving a baby is emotional manipulation. Sheesh.

Oh, good. So you agree with sex education in schools, including how to use condoms and other birth control? Safe sex reduces abortions.

Educating them in safe sex precautions? Sure. Handouts and promoting the going outside of parental awareness/supervision? Absolutely not. After all, these are the same kids who will become parents someday.

 

[Ed O]

Talk about a ludicrous idea/comparison.

I would bet you anything (although I have no evidence) that there have been more people of that ilk than there have been of Tebow's.

And, wouldn't it be a fair trade to have one fewer Heisman Trophy winner and one fewer rapist/murderer on earth?

I'm not clamoring for that commercial to be made, but it seems to be at least a rough approximation of another angle and an indication of why the Tebow ad might be controversial...

Ed O.

 

[Minstrel]

Sure, saving a baby is emotional manipulation. Sheesh.

Dumbing down the abortion debate to "You're killing Tim Tebow, national college hero, or someone just like him, if you have an abortion. Do you want that? Do you want to murder Tim Tebow, or someone just like him, in cold blood?" is emotional manipulation, yes. Attempted, anyway. I doubt very many people are going to change their feelings on abortion because Tim Tebow could have been aborted, wasn't and went on to star in college football.

Educating them in safe sex precautions? Sure.

Cool.

Handouts and promoting the going outside of parental awareness/supervision? Absolutely not. After all, these are the same kids who will become parents someday.

Absolutely they're going to be the parents someday. We'd like them to have learned to think for themselves, not be dominated in life choices by their parents. I don't think hiding things from their parents should be "promoted"...but I think having alternatives that don't depend on parents is worthwhile.

 

[ABM]

And, wouldn't it be a fair trade to have one fewer Heisman Trophy winner and one fewer rapist/murderer on earth?

Sure, Ed. And, as far as I know, the only way to ensure that happens is either to (a)not conceive or b)abort every fetus.

 

[Ed O]

Sure, Ed. And, as far as I know, the only way to ensure that happens is either to (a)not conceive or b)abort every fetus.

Well, by holding up Tebow as a reason to not abort, it seems totally fair to point to a bad, bad guy as a reason to abort.

Why is one more ridiculous than the other?

Ed O.

 

[Eastoff]

Sure, saving a baby is emotional manipulation. Sheesh.



Educating them in safe sex precautions? Sure. Handouts and promoting the going outside of parental awareness/supervision? Absolutely not. After all, these are the same kids who will become parents someday.

so at what age did you have a serious discussion about safe sex with your children? My parents never directly spoke to me about it. But I had a class in 5th grade, 7th grade, 8th grade, 9th grade, and 10th.

 

[ABM]

Dumbing down the abortion debate to "You're killing Tim Tebow, national college hero, or someone just like him, if you have an abortion. Do you want that? Do you want to murder Tim Tebow, or someone just like him, in cold blood?" is emotional manipulation, yes. Attempted, anyway. I doubt very many people are going to change their feelings on abortion because Tim Tebow could have been aborted, wasn't and went on to star in college football.

Uhm, I'm only attempting to understand why you think the commercial is silly. Me? Again, I think it's fantastic message to youth. I strongly believe in preserving life as much as humanly possible. When potentially faced with the choice to keep or abort a fetus, perhaps those same youth might take a strong, hard look at all the (relational? emotional?) ramifications at stake....as opposed to a potentially quick and easy choice.

We'd like them to have learned to think for themselves, not be dominated in life choices by their parents.

Who's "we"?

Huh, "we" must be smarter than the respective parents, eh?

 

[Eastoff]

Sure, Ed. And, as far as I know, the only way to ensure that happens is either to (a)not conceive or b)abort every fetus.

So you never made a mistake in your youth, say 17, that you wouldn't repeat when you were say 22?

 

[ABM]

so at what age did you have a serious discussion about safe sex with your children? My parents never directly spoke to me about it. But I had a class in 5th grade, 7th grade, 8th grade, 9th grade, and 10th.

Then, when you become a parent of an adolescent, you'll immediately become dumber than the educators, as well.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

I watched a documentary on this type of stuff. Why some doctors abort babies when they are passed the embryo stage is beyond me. This doctor was talking about how this one baby grabbed the camera he had up in there to monitor something. That shit would traumatize me. That doctor is heartless.

 

[Eastoff]

Is it legal for the owner of a dog to just decide to kill it on a whim? I honestly don't know, I'm asking.

Regardless of that... is "self-awareness" really a good litmus test for whether somebody has the right to life?

Well it is legal to take a dog to a shelter (adoption home) because they can not take care of it. Then at the dog shelter, if it is not adopted in a certain amount of time, it will be put down. If the dog attacks someone, it can be put down.

IMO, yes it is, because they never know they were alive to die, if they are not self aware. It's the same logic behind pulling the plug on a "vegetable."

I would not want to have an abortion. I think I am far enough along in my life I could take care of a child if I had to, but I don't want a child for a while still. But if I was younger and had some kind of lapse in judgement or what not, I want that option.

 

[Eastoff]

Then, when you become a parent of an adolescent, you'll immediately become dumber than the educators, as well.

you're ignoring my serious question, did you talk to your own kids. It is a strong part of your argument, no? parents talkign to their kids, not schools?

 

[Eastoff]

I watched a documentary on this type of stuff. Why some doctors abort babies when they are passed the embryo stage is beyond me. This doctor was talking about how this one baby grabbed the camera he had up in there to monitor something. That shit would traumatize me. That doctor is heartless.

This makes me wonder if "Look who's Talking" was a anti-abortion secret propaganda film.

 

[ABM]

you're ignoring my serious question, did you talk to your own kids. It is a strong part of your argument, no? parents talkign to their kids, not schools?

Yes. I mean, it is what parents have (or should have?) been doing since the beginning of time, no?

 

[Minstrel]

Uhm, I'm only attempting to understand why you think the commercial is silly.

And I told you: I think it's an anecdote that does nothing to illuminate or educate about the issue.

I understand that you like the spot. That's fine.

Who's "we"?

Huh, "we" must be smarter than the respective parents, eh?

Well, some of us would like parents who have learned to think for themselves, rather than have their lives dominated by their parents until age 18. I shouldn't have used "we." I do see it as an obvious good thing, but clearly it's not something everyone believes.

 

[Eastoff]

Yes. I mean, it is what parents have (or should have?) been doing since the beginning of time, no?

I am asking you what age you talked to your kids about the details of sex. Perhaps I should say, did you talk to your kids by 14?

 

[ABM]

And I told you: I think it's an anecdote that does nothing to illuminate or educate about the issue.

Then, it'll do just fine, just fine, mixed amongst the other Super Bowl commercials.

Well, some of us would like parents who have learned to think for themselves, rather than have their lives dominated by their parents until age 18. I shouldn't have used "we." I do see it as an obvious good thing, but clearly it's not something everyone believes.

Personally, I don't think any of would like dominating parents. I hear what you're saying, though. I'm just net keen on putting the onus on our teachers, either.

In the old days, they had such a thing as extended family. Pretty cool stuff right there.

 

[Eastoff]

In the old days, they had such a thing as extended family. Pretty cool stuff right there.

WARNING GROSS:
my grandmother who is 90 now, told a story about how she thought she was dying at age 12, when she had her period for an entire year. People do not talk about a lot of things that they take for granted as being logical. ie: "I didn't have my period until i was 16 so why would my daughter have hers when she's 11 or 12?" Or "instead of having a sex, why don't you get your sexual tension out through masturbation" or "pulling out is not a safe form of sex, but here are some condoms" or "you might make bad decisions, like sex without condoms, if you choose to get drunk, which you hide from me"

 

[Minstrel]

Personally, I don't think any of would like dominating parents. I hear what you're saying, though. I'm just net keen on putting the onus on our teachers, either.

Well, I don't know about putting the onus on the teachers. I think the most effective guidance is at home. But what individual parents choose to talk about is highly variable. I don't mind a secondary education (which may be primary in cases where parents don't address it, but that's better than nothing IMO) from school on sex, its responsibilities and its possible pitfalls.

In the old days, they had such a thing as extended family. Pretty cool stuff right there.

Extended families are interesting. My family comes from a tradition (in India) of extended families...but having lived in the US all my life, I never experienced that. It was very much the "nuclear family."