I want to Apologize

[Tribute to H2O]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">Marbury
Crawford
Richardson
Sweetney
James

That's not a bad starting line up. You might have a few bad shots, but they'll be flying up and down the court so fast you'll barely notice. Not to mention that you have Nate, Trevor,Frye, Mo Taylor coming off the bench. Put it together, the Knicks have the talent to compete in the East. They can easily win they're division. Gone are the days where a 6'7 Kurt Thomas was playing Center, now you have a legit bigman and some serious young talent to look foward to down the line. The future looks good.</div>

It sure doesnt look like a bad starting lineup but then again you could have said the same thing about last year's starting lineup. There is still no defense out on the perimeter which spells trouble for the foul prone Jerome James. Marbury and Crawford dont compliment each other very well and Crawford's shot selection is simply terrible. Richardson isnt that good. I dont know why people think he's so great. He's just another trigger happy shooter(not even a particularly good one) who doesnt play defense as far as I'm concerned. And with a perimeter line up like this Sweetney will rarely get any touches in the low post. Marbury isnt really that good on the fast break and you have to be able to play defense and rebound the ball before you can talk about transition game and this team cant play defense and James isnt a great rebounder. So the Knicks will not be a transition team. If I was running the team the future would look alright but with Isiah at the helm...it's looking like a very bleak future. This is the same guy who traded away the Knicks future for a career loser afterall. He wont hesitate to deal Sweetney for some lazy bum that has potential(i.e. Kwame Brown) or for some overpaid player that really wont help the Knicks. The Knicks payroll will rise and rise and the Knicks will hover around mediocrity while Isiah is here.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">They?re actually much better than they were with Isiah than they were with Layden ? that goes without saying. How can you mention the payroll being through the roof and than you support Scott Layden? Layden is the reason why the payroll is the way it is now. The ridiculous payroll is all Layden?s doing. I don?t think we?re headed into a black hole at all ? we seem to be well on our way into the right direction.

So what did Layden do? He overpaid Allan Houston who was a shooting specialist, however, he is the reason why we are in the condition we?re in now. He gave Allan Houston 100 million dollars and made him the 3rd most paid player in the whole league. He is terrible defensively, isn?t a great passer nor rebounder and his contract makes him immovable and yet you still like Layden?

Isiah is adding talent to the team who have all-star potential and whether or not his moves pan out well is yet to be seen, but so far it looks good on paper. In addition, if he finds a way to get Larry Brown, we will be all the more better.

Again, Layden didn?t do better. Even if this team happens to be expensive, at least we know we?re better than last year?s team. In the draft, it seems as if he did decently as well. If James turns out well and we get Larry Brown, Isiah deserves props. I just want to know: how you we?re going to suck on the court when you haven?t seen these Knicks play together?

How so? I don?t understand how you can judge this move so quickly. Training camp didn?t even start and yet you?re judging our players already? You?re not being reasonable, Tribute. At the very least we owe Isiah Thomas time to see how his moves turn out.</div>

You honestly think the Knicks are in a better place now than when Isiah took over for Layden?? Let me see...the Knicks were a lottery team under Layden and their a lottery team under Isiah. The payroll under Layden was less than 100 million dollars. The payroll under Isiah is over 100 million dollars. So we got more for our money's worth under Layden. I am not supporting Layden. I think both he and Isiah are bad GM's. Layden may have caused the Knicks salary cap woes but Isiah didnt help it and if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. Isiah continued the trend of taking more salary to patch things up so that makes him just as guilty as Layden in my book. When he came in he could have scrapped the whole thing and started over but he didnt. Instead he traded young talent, cap space and picks for somebody who has never been able to lead his team past the first round.

As for Layden overpaying Houston...Layden did not give Houston the 100 million dollar contract. Dolan is the one who gave it to Houston so you cant blame Layden for that one. Calling Houston a shooting specialist is like calling Tim Duncan an "alright" powerforward. Houston when he got the contract was considered the best shooter in the league. And Houston, all things considered, was probably a 90 million dollar player so he wasnt way overpaid. "Terrible defensively"??? Wow. If Houston was "terrible defensively" the Knicks in the late nineties would not have been as good defensively as they were so make sure you know what your talking about before you start regurgitating(spelling right?) what some jackass sports writer writes. He was a decent defender who would step up his defense every now and again. I'll take Houston's contract and the way he was playing before he got hurt over Stephon Marbury, his contract and nonsense anyday(before anyone even thinks of disagreeing with me they better be prepared and bring more than stats to the table).

Adding players with all star potential to the team?? Who??? I hope you dont mean Channing Frye, David Lee or Nate Robinson!! I dont need to see this team to play to know it's going to be a disaster. I just have to look at the team, the problems we had last year and Isiah's track record to know were going to be in the lottery. If we get Larry Brown and the Knicks start doing well it'll be because it's Larry Brown who's coaching and doing a great job despite the huge mess Isiah made. I dont owe Isiah Thomas a damn thing. In fact he owes me an apology for this disaster.


Anyway I think Isiah Thomas should be fired(now that would be a step in the right direction!).

 

[Mr.Wade]

I'm both ways in my thinking on the New York Knickerbockers.

I thought they would be in the semis of the Eastern Conference this year... turns out they had an underacheiving year yet again...

It seems the Knicks are hyped almost every year, because of the amt. of talent they have, but it just doesnt seem to mesh together well, or something or other goes wrong, etc. I can see them doing well this year, but I can also see it being a disastrous year... only time will tell.

 

[.cabangbang]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">"Isiah Thomas is giving Rob Babcock a run for his money for Worst GM of the Year"

This attitude towards Babcock is a result of reading one to many know it all analysts who used Babcock as a tool to get out thier punch lines. Babcock's draft pick didnt work out, but might still since its only been 1 year. Worst things have happened and been done by other GM's...he's not the first GM to draft a player in the lottery that didnt produce. It might still happen but we'll see.

Then people rag on him for the vince deal saying it was horrible and rambling on and on and on about it. I think the deal was pretty good actually. What more could we of gotten for a sulking whining crybaby who obviously wasnt trying and was constantly repeating to anyone that would listen that he wanted out of Toronto despite being the franchise, despite the team wanting him, despite the fans wanting him, and despite his 14 million dollar annual paycheck. Graham + a 1st year next year is definately nice....hell if Vince was still with the Raps and Graham with the Nets i'd do that deal straight up for salary cap reasons and especially to get rid of his dead weight and attitude.


Babcock had one of the best drafts this year if not the best and he's put together a very very solid young core. The team still need work but overall its way better off that it was looking then when he took it over.</div>

This is completley off topic, but what the hell are you thinking? Babcock had another horrible draft. Villanueava is going to amount to nothing in the NB maybe a 10 7 player, but he is not a good pick whatsoever. Babcock has the chance to take Granger who obviosuly loved Toronto and Babcock decides to take Villanueava who is just the same position that your franchise okayer Bosh is so lets see. You take Granger and you have

Altson
Rose
Granger
Bosh
Araujo

Pretty damn good lineup. Now with the 16 you pass up on Green who is TmacII and take... Joey Graham. Come on this guy is not worth passing up Green. Graham is a good player and will contribute but will not be half as good as Green. Take Green and

Alston
Rose
Green
Granger
Bosh

Please tell me you don?t want that lineup over

Alston
Rose
Graham
Bosh
Hoffa.

Please. You could have enough cap felxibility with the Granger Green draft to nab a good C via FA per se, Chandler

Alston
Green
?Granger
?Bosh
?Chandler

?And you say that ?Babcock had one of the best drafts this year if not the best. ?Please. ?GSW had a much better draft.

 

[j0se]

Charlie is V is underrated by most, I hope he proves all you guys wrong.

 

[.cabangbang]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting j0se:</div><div class="quote_post">Charlie is V is underrated by most, I hope he proves all you guys wrong.</div>

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">It sure doesnt look like a bad starting lineup but then again you could have said the same thing about last year's starting lineup.</div>
Houston was supposed to be a part of that starting lineup but he was injured so you need to take that into consideration.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There is still no defense out on the perimeter which spells trouble for the foul prone Jerome James.</div>
True, but I believe Frye could help in this category as well. The very Larry Brown?s defensive philosophy should increase our defense. I also think Marbury and Crawford have learned their lessons and will try harder defensively.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Marbury and Crawford dont compliment each other very well and Crawford's shot selection is simply terrible.</div>
Actually, they do. They are two terrific ball handlers who are very good passers. Crawford has a better shot when taking the right shots. His shot selection does have to improve, but after tape reviews and playing 6th man, I think he?ll play much better.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Richardson isnt that good. I dont know why people think he's so great. He's just another trigger happy shooter(not even a particularly good one) who doesnt play defense as far as I'm concerned.</div>
He?s a solid scorer who hasn?t gotten opportunities to show it playing on the Clippers or playing on the Suns. The reason why he played so trigger happy was because that?s how he was used on his previous teams. He won?t stand out on the perimeter and launch away ? that was his job in Phoenix, however, we need him differently. His defense could stand to improve, but with Jerome James, Frye and possibly Brown, we?ll be better off than you think. We were a bad defensive team last year in 03-04, but Mutombo made it much better.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And with a perimeter line up like this Sweetney will rarely get any touches in the low post.</div>
I doubt it. I?m sure Sweetney will get his share down low. Feeding the ball to our bigs will open up another dimension for us offensively. Even if they do happen to lose out, both him and Lee are such great rebounders; they can clean up after many missed shots.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Marbury isnt really that good on the fast break and you have to be able to play defense and rebound the ball before you can talk about transition game and this team cant play defense</div>
The Suns were not known as a defensive team and yet they were known for their transition game. I don?t think our rebounding is as bad as you say it will be for the following reasons: 1) We now have two 7-footers on the roster. 2) We have David Lee and Sweetney only getting better. 3) Quentin Richardson will bolster our rebounds on the perimeter that our undersized backcourt of Marbury and Crawford couldn?t do.

Also let?s not forget that fast breaks can be sparked by turnovers and someone like Quentin Richardson who is 12th in the NBA in Steals Per Turnover is an ideal player to have in starting a fast break.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">and James isnt a great rebounder.</div>
He?s decent. He usually plays next to Reggie Evans who?s a monster on the boards and averages about 9.3 a game in 24 minutes. As you can imagine, he loses some rebounds to this guy. In addition, while James might not be the best rebounder, Lee and Sweetney are good. We also can?t forget we won?t be too terrible rebounding with Richardson around; he averages 6 rebounds a game.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So the Knicks will not be a transition team. If I was running the team the future would look alright but with Isiah at the helm...it's looking like a very bleak future. This is the same guy who traded away the Knicks future for a career loser afterall.</div>
What do you mean by the Knicks future? Lampe? I don?t understand what was wrong with that move. Although I would have kept him, trading him for a consistent 20/8 all-star caliber player is definitely not a bad move at all. Besides, it doesn?t look as if Lampe is fairing too well in the league being bounced around 3 times in 3 years. I?m not saying he?s a bust, but Marbury was much more sure than Lampe.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He wont hesitate to deal Sweetney for some lazy bum that has potential(i.e. Kwame Brown) or for some overpaid player that really wont help the Knicks.</div>
The reason why he was looking to deal Sweetney was because he just doesn?t fit the direction of the team and someone like Kwame Brown does. I think he needs a change of scenery and if he works with Aguirre, 20/10 numbers are not out of the question at all.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The Knicks payroll will rise and rise</div>
I don?t understand this. Layden is the sole reason why the Knicks payroll is so ridiculous today and yet you?re blaming Isiah for it?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">and the Knicks will hover around mediocrity while Isiah is here.</div>
I?d rather hover around mediocrity than hover in the lottery.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You honestly think the Knicks are in a better place now than when Isiah took over for Layden?? Let me see...the Knicks were a lottery team under Layden and their a lottery team under Isiah.</div>
Layden tore apart a championship contending team and made it a lottery. Isiah took a lottery team to the playoffs once and than to the lottery back again.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The payroll under Layden was less than 100 million dollars. The payroll under Isiah is over 100 million dollars. So we got more for our money's worth under Layden.</div>
Isiah added much less money to the payroll than Layden did. I think when Layden was here it was like 90-something million dollars and Isiah made it slightly worse. We didn?t get our money?s worth at all with Layden.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I am not supporting Layden. I think both he and Isiah are bad GM's. Layden may have caused the Knicks salary cap woes but Isiah didnt help it and if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. Isiah continued the trend of taking more salary to patch things up so that makes him just as guilty as Layden in my book. When he came in he could have scrapped the whole thing and started over but he didnt.</div>
Patching things up and waiting until 2007 where Allan Houston?s contract is up is not the right direction to go in my opinion. I see the direction Isiah Thomas is headed whereas Layden I did not.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Instead he traded young talent, cap space and picks for somebody who has never been able to lead his team past the first round.</div>
He also acquired young talent and picks too. Give credit where credit is due. Marbury?s unfortunate situation doesn?t have merit to it. If I remember correctly, Jordan was having trouble getting his team out the first round of the playoffs, too. Does that make him less of a player? What about Elton Brand? He?s never even been to the playoffs but he?s as good a player as Marbury and if not, better.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">As for Layden overpaying Houston...Layden did not give Houston the 100 million dollar contract. Dolan is the one who gave it to Houston so you cant blame Layden for that one.</div>
I had no idea he did that. Sorry, I didn?t know that.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Calling Houston a shooting specialist is like calling Tim Duncan an "alright" powerforward. Houston when he got the contract was considered the best shooter in the league. And Houston, all things considered, was probably a 90 million dollar player so he wasnt way overpaid.</div>
I think that?s pushing it. Houston was an excellent shooter no buts about it, but specialist or expert is the right word for him. I don?t think he?d get the best shooter anonymously, but he was a premier shooter. Allan Houston in no way, shape, or form was worth 90 million dollars.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">"Terrible defensively"??? Wow. If Houston was "terrible defensively" the Knicks in the late nineties would not have been as good defensively as they were so make sure you know what your talking about before you start regurgitating(spelling right?) what some jackass sports writer writes. He was a decent defender who would step up his defense every now and again.</div>
It takes more than one person to make a team good defensively. Back in the 90?s, the Knicks were a great defense team. Team was the keyword there. They had two great shot blockers, a great defensive coach and their perimeter defense was full of guys like Sprewell and Charlie Ward who were locking the perimeter. Perhaps terrible was too strong a word and for that, I apologize, however, throughout his career, Houston has been known as a below average defender.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'll take Houston's contract and the way he was playing before he got hurt over Stephon Marbury, his contract and nonsense anyday(before anyone even thinks of disagreeing with me they better be prepared and bring more than stats to the table).</div>
Well, that?s your opinion and there?s no point in arguing over that.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Adding players with all star potential to the team?? Who??? I hope you dont mean Channing Frye, David Lee or Nate Robinson!!</div>
No, I didn?t mean them; I meant Quentin Richardson and Jamal Crawford.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I dont need to see this team to play to know it's going to be a disaster. I just have to look at the team, the problems we had last year and Isiah's track record to know were going to be in the lottery.</div>
You can never judge a team like that. Ever. The same was said about the Bulls, Sonics, Wizards, Bucks and Grizzlies (last year). Could the Knicks follow such a path?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If we get Larry Brown and the Knicks start doing well it'll be because it's Larry Brown who's coaching and doing a great job despite the huge mess Isiah made. I dont owe Isiah Thomas a damn thing. In fact he owes me an apology for this disaster.</div>
Larry Brown has won wherever he has gone and hopefully if we get him, he can continue that trend in New York which I believe he will do. You at the very least owe Isiah Thomas a chance to show how this season will be for the Knicks.

 

[ROCK4LIFE]

How could you not be excited about Nate Robinson. I wasn't too familiar with him until I caught one of the summer league game, and I have to say the kid is very fun to watch. He's a team player who competes at a very high level and is fast as hell running up and down the court. I think his unselfish play will rub off on the rest of team like Steve Nash did in Pheonix.

 

[j0se]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">How could you not be excited about Nate Robinson. I wasn't too familiar with him until I caught one of the summer league game, and I have to say the kid is very fun to watch. He's a team player who competes at a very high level and is fast as hell running up and down the court. I think his unselfish play will rub off on the rest of team like Steve Nash did in Pheonix.</div>

Cause of Stephon Marbury and Crawford, which will limit Nate Robinson's playimg time, I want to see him play, but we already got a guy at PG who's going to give the team 40 mins a night on avg.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting j0se:</div><div class="quote_post">Cause of Stephon Marbury and Crawford, which will limit Nate Robinson's playimg time, I want to see him play, but we already got a guy at PG who's going to give the team 40 mins a night on avg.</div>
Perhaps Robinson might allow Marbury to play 35 minutes or so. He is very talented.

 

[j0se]

Maybe, but Im probably too confident in Marbruy, he takes good care of the ball, and has an elite assist to turnover ratio.

 

[Tribute to H2O]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Houston was supposed to be a part of that starting lineup but he was injured so you need to take that into consideration.</div>

Even without Houston the team looked good on paper.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">True, but I believe Frye could help in this category as well. The very Larry Brown?s defensive philosophy should increase our defense. I also think Marbury and Crawford have learned their lessons and will try harder defensively.</div>

You do realize Larry Brown already had a bunch of defensive minded players on his team dont you? The only player on the Pistons who wasnt a particularly good defender before he met up with Larry Brown was Rip Hamilton and maybe Chauncey Billups.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually, they do. They are two terrific ball handlers who are very good passers. Crawford has a better shot when taking the right shots. His shot selection does have to improve, but after tape reviews and playing 6th man, I think he?ll play much better.</div>

Oh please. Just because their two terrific ball handlers doesnt mean they compliment each other well. Crawford's shot is definetely better when taking the right shots too bad he'll never learn what the right shots are. And he's not going to be coming off the bench he'll most likely be starting.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">He?s a solid scorer who hasn?t gotten opportunities to show it playing on the Clippers or playing on the Suns. The reason why he played so trigger happy was because that?s how he was used on his previous teams. He won?t stand out on the perimeter and launch away ? that was his job in Phoenix, however, we need him differently. His defense could stand to improve, but with Jerome James, Frye and possibly Brown, we?ll be better off than you think. We were a bad defensive team last year in 03-04, but Mutombo made it much better.</div>

His defense could stand to improve??? So you say Houston is "terrible defensively" and then say Q can stand to improve?? That's just amazing. The way you can ridiculously exaggerate one point and then ridiculously downplay another. You have a gift...ever thought about becoming a politician? As far as I'm concerned the less he does the better, spotting up and shooting the trey seems to be his best attribute. You do realize Mutumbo is one of the greatest shot blockers in history and Jerome James is Jerome James and Channing Frye is Channing Frye dont you?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">I doubt it. I?m sure Sweetney will get his share down low. Feeding the ball to our bigs will open up another dimension for us offensively. Even if they do happen to lose out, both him and Lee are such great rebounders; they can clean up after many missed shots.</div>

Nope. Sweetney will not get alot of touches in the low post. With guys like Marbury, Crawford and Q out on the perimeter the only time Sweetney will see the ball is in shoot around. He'll probably be reduced to getting garbage points and with Crawford and Q launching trey after trey he'll be getting quite a few.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">The Suns were not known as a defensive team and yet they were known for their transition game. I don?t think our rebounding is as bad as you say it will be for the following reasons: 1) We now have two 7-footers on the roster. 2) We have David Lee and Sweetney only getting better. 3) Quentin Richardson will bolster our rebounds on the perimeter that our undersized backcourt of Marbury and Crawford couldn?t do.</div>

Our rebounding wont be bad. We're going to do alright in that department. Sweetney is a great rebounder so he'll make up for Jerome James and Q is a better rebounder than TT. But with our kind of defense...I wont be expecting a whole lot of defensive rebounds.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Also let?s not forget that fast breaks can be sparked by turnovers and someone like Quentin Richardson who is 12th in the NBA in Steals Per Turnover is an ideal player to have in starting a fast break.</div>

Wow I didnt know that about Q. I wonder how many times he's gambled, lost his man and left him open. But why am I asking that? It's not like he shows up on defense anyway so he wasnt gambling anything.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">He?s decent. He usually plays next to Reggie Evans who?s a monster on the boards and averages about 9.3 a game in 24 minutes. As you can imagine, he loses some rebounds to this guy. In addition, while James might not be the best rebounder, Lee and Sweetney are good. We also can?t forget we won?t be too terrible rebounding with Richardson around; he averages 6 rebounds a game.</div>

Yes I know. Our rebounding will be fine.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">What do you mean by the Knicks future? Lampe? I don?t understand what was wrong with that move. Although I would have kept him, trading him for a consistent 20/8 all-star caliber player is definitely not a bad move at all. Besides, it doesn?t look as if Lampe is fairing too well in the league being bounced around 3 times in 3 years. I?m not saying he?s a bust, but Marbury was much more sure than Lampe.</div>

Lampe, two draft picks, lots of salary cap room and the beginning of the end for Frank Williams. That's what the Knicks lost out on when they made that trade for Marbury. At the time it was a risky move. In hindsight it was a pretty bad trade. I certainly hope your not saying Lampe is a bust afterall you argued in another thread that he shouldnt be considered a bust. It's a little more complicated than deciding between Lampe and Marbury. Just a little. The deal put an end to all hopes of the Knicks getting out of salary cap Hell and little over a year later we have nothing to show for it. We had a good group of young promising players and now it's gone and again no improvement. You do realize that if the Knicks didnt make that deal they could have gotten Dwight Howard, Okafor or Ben Gordon and Ariza to go along with Sweetney, Williams and Lampe? The Knicks would have had a bunch of good young players and been able to get under the salary cap and sign a big time free agent at the same time as the young guys finished maturing. That would have been a bright future but nope Isiah has to go for the flashy move. He has to get the big name guys.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">The reason why he was looking to deal Sweetney was because he just doesn?t fit the direction of the team and someone like Kwame Brown does. I think he needs a change of scenery and if he works with Aguirre, 20/10 numbers are not out of the question at all.</div>

The fact that he's willing to deal Sweetney for Kwame Brown alone makes me want to fire him. I mean how stupid can you be?? All any idiot has to do is look at Brown and all the lazy bums that came before him to know that Brown shouldnt be in the NBA. If Kwame Brown fits the direction of this team then the Knicks are in bigger trouble than I first thought.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">I don?t understand this. Layden is the sole reason why the Knicks payroll is so ridiculous today and yet you?re blaming Isiah for it?</div>

READ MY LIPS. IF YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM!!! PERIOD! ISIAH THOMAS COULD HAVE FIXED THE SALARY CAP PROBLEMS BUT HE DIDNT! HE CONTINUED DOING WHAT LAYDEN WAS DOING! THEREFORE HE IS JUST AS WRONG AS LAYDEN! I HATE WHEN PEOPLE TRY TO DEFEND ISIAH THOMAS WHEN HE'S DOING EXACTLY WHAT LAYDEN DID! I'm sorry for the caps lock but I do hate it when people say the cap situation isnt Isiah's fault and I do want to make sure you dont miss anything I said because it looks like you did in my earlier post.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">I?d rather hover around mediocrity than hover in the lottery.</div>

Mediocre teams go to the lottery you know and I'd rather not be hover around either. I'd rather fire Isiah, trade Marbury and rebuild around our young talent and hang around championship contender a few years from now.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Layden tore apart a championship contending team and made it a lottery. Isiah took a lottery team to the playoffs once and than to the lottery back again.</div>

The Knicks were a team in transition. Their championship years were behind them. He didnt tear apart anything. Ewing was old, Larry Johnson had back problems, Childs wasnt doing good and so on. Layden just made bad moves when he was trying to get them through the transitional period.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Isiah added much less money to the payroll than Layden did. I think when Layden was here it was like 90-something million dollars and Isiah made it slightly worse. We didn?t get our money?s worth at all with Layden.</div>

We are at the same place we were with Layden. This sorry team costs more than Layden's did. Therefore we were getting the most out of our money under Layden. It's really simple when you think about it.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Patching things up and waiting until 2007 where Allan Houston?s contract is up is not the right direction to go in my opinion. I see the direction Isiah Thomas is headed whereas Layden I did not.</div>

Rebuilding is the right direction. Layden didnt do it and neither is Isiah. Isiah could have started the rebuilding process but he didnt. So he is just as bad as Layden. Period. Isiah is heading into the same direction as Layden except he's making flashy moves and smiling that stupid smile while he's doing it.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">He also acquired young talent and picks too. Give credit where credit is due. Marbury?s unfortunate situation doesn?t have merit to it. If I remember correctly, Jordan was having trouble getting his team out the first round of the playoffs, too. Does that make him less of a player? What about Elton Brand? He?s never even been to the playoffs but he?s as good a player as Marbury and if not, better.</div>

Please. Jordan didnt traded from the Bulls to another team and watch the Bulls get better. But every single team Marbury has been on has gotten better when he left. From the T wolves to the Nets(that's right right?) to the Suns and finally to the Knicks. Elton Brand isnt on a good team which is why he hasnt been past the first round. If he went to another team he'll be fine but the same cant be said of Marbury. Marbury plain and simple is not a winner.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">I had no idea he did that. Sorry, I didn?t know that.</div>

I know you didnt know.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">I think that?s pushing it. Houston was an excellent shooter no buts about it, but specialist or expert is the right word for him. I don?t think he?d get the best shooter anonymously, but he was a premier shooter. Allan Houston in no way, shape, or form was worth 90 million dollars.</div>

Then think harder. Eight out of ten people would have said Houston was the best shooter in the league. The other two would have probably said Peja or Ray Allen. This is a fact. A very mainstream fact. I dont want to discuss this fact again. It makes me wonder whether or not you watched basketball prior to this past season(I'm being very serious). Houston was an elite shooting guard prior to his injury. Very few people if any could put the ball in the basket like he could. So yes 90 million dollars is more than reasonable especially when you consider he was a winner unlike you know who.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">It takes more than one person to make a team good defensively. Back in the 90?s, the Knicks were a great defense team. Team was the keyword there. They had two great shot blockers, a great defensive coach and their perimeter defense was full of guys like Sprewell and Charlie Ward who were locking the perimeter. Perhaps terrible was too strong a word and for that, I apologize, however, throughout his career, Houston has been known as a below average defender.</div>

You are certainly right. It does take more than one player to make an entire team a good defensive team. However it only takes one player to make a good defensive team an average defensive team. And if Houston was bad as you claim he was then the Knicks would have been only average not good. There's a saying: "A lie told often enough becomes the truth." Instead of just repeating everything you hear why dont you pop in a game tape and make up your own mind.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Well, that?s your opinion and there?s no point in arguing over that.</div>

Yes it is my opinion. And no there is no point in arguing over that because anyone who disagreed with me would lose.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">No, I didn?t mean them; I meant Quentin Richardson and Jamal Crawford.</div>

Oh. Now i wish you were talking about the rookies. Nate Robinson and David Lee will be All Stars before Q and Crawford does have the potential but I doubt he's going to realize it.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">You can never judge a team like that. Ever. The same was said about the Bulls, Sonics, Wizards, Bucks and Grizzlies (last year). Could the Knicks follow such a path?</div>

Of course Ican. Maybe you cant but I can. I didnt say anything about the Bulls or those other teams. And no the Knicks cant or rather wont unless one of the pre-Isiah acquisitions steps up.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Larry Brown has won wherever he has gone and hopefully if we get him, he can continue that trend in New York which I believe he will do. You at the very least owe Isiah Thomas a chance to show how this season will be for the Knicks.</div>

No I really dont owe Isiah anything. So far his tenure here has been awful. If Larry Brown comes over and wins it wont be because of Isiah Thomas' moves it will be despite them. You can keep your stomach turning optimism but I tried that before. Remember how excited I was in the preseason last year? The Knicks issues from the past season have not really been resolved so this time around I'd rather be honest with myself and bunker down for another disaster of a season.


Anyway I think Isiah Thomas should be fired.

 

[02civic]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting J-Rich23:</div><div class="quote_post">This is completley off topic, but what the hell are you thinking? Babcock had another horrible draft. Villanueava is going to amount to nothing in the NB maybe a 10 7 player, but he is not a good pick whatsoever. Babcock has the chance to take Granger who obviosuly loved Toronto and Babcock decides to take Villanueava who is just the same position that your franchise okayer Bosh is so lets see. You take Granger and you have

Altson
Rose
Granger
Bosh
Araujo

Pretty damn good lineup. Now with the 16 you pass up on Green who is TmacII and take... Joey Graham. Come on this guy is not worth passing up Green. Graham is a good player and will contribute but will not be half as good as Green. Take Green and

Alston
Rose
Green
Granger
Bosh

Please tell me you don?t want that lineup over

Alston
Rose
Graham
Bosh
Hoffa.

Please. You could have enough cap felxibility with the Granger Green draft to nab a good C via FA per se, Chandler

Alston
Green
?Granger
?Bosh
?Chandler

?And you say that ?Babcock had one of the best drafts this year if not the best. ?Please. ?GSW had a much better draft.</div>


BEFORE I SAY ANYTHING ELSE

"Alston
Rose
Green
Granger
Bosh"

ok...so to get this straight you're playing 3 players out of position in your starting lineup???? I dont want Bosh at center, if i had Granger he'd play the 3 and if i had Green he'd be a 2 until he bulks up in a few years. And your next lineup doesnt make sense because we couldnt afford to sign Chandler regardless of who we picked. I'm very very very happy with a draft of CV, Graham and Ukic. Never wanted bad attitude Green and i was split over Graham and Granger but i didnt want both.



this is off-topic and i wont go beyond this one post just to respond but i have to say J-Rich that you need to check out the Raptors forum to understand where you are wrong. why did we pass up on Granger and Green. well for one both players openly admitted they didnt want Toronto picking them, so why would we? You say Green is T-mac2? Maybe simply becuase he would of used his years in Toronto to develop and spring board his career so that he can demand a trade or sign somewhere else....just like t-mac, stoudamire and camby. Graham is no slouch and the Raptors needed his style(physical) play alot more than Granger and Greens.
CV a bad draft? You read to many analysts. Check out the kids age and what everyone who knows anything says about him. The kid has tons of talent...he's a taller Odom. He'll be able to fill the void D. Marshall is leaving and in the future i could see a charlie/bosh lineup being very very attractive vs all of the teams in the league without dangerous centers (75%). He can also play the 3 and his rebounding should really help us out since its an area we needed improvement on.

I can honestly say i like the Graham lineup better than your Granger and Green, and i can honestly say that Babcock had the best draft in the league.
3 first round players on 2 first round choices, and most importantly they are players that want to be in Toronto and that want to work hard, no attitude, no drama.

Come check out the Raptors forum, you'll learn alot on this issue.

Back on topic, I'm actually impressed with Isiah. He still needs to do something with those expiring contracts before the season starts if he hopes to get a good playoff team together. The team's gunna need to gel from the start and picking up new players in Feb and asking them to be cohesive might be a problem. In my opinion they should go after a backup big man that can rebound and block shots. I also would think any deal where Crawford is traded for a defensive minded, off ball offensive type player would be great.
I think what i would of done as Isiah would of been to draft Graham(not Granger because they dont need scoring as bad as rebounding and strength down low and at mid range).

Draft Graham at 7
Taft at 30
Trade K. Thomas+54th pick to the Suns in a sign and trade for S. Hunter and 21st pick(include future NY second rounder if necessary)
Use 21st pick on Ukic
Sign J.James to MLE

Lineup could look like:

James/Hunter/Taft/Butler
Sweetney/Rose/Taft/Butler
Graham/Ariza/J. Williams
Crawford/Hardaway/Marbury
Marbury/Ukic/Crawford

you could even go big and defensive/rebound beastly with a lineup of

James
Hunter
Graham
Crawford
Marbury


Taft is a good pick with the 30th cause its not a huge risk but the potential is good. To many young big men is not possible. He can play the 4 to help out of there's a problem with Sweentey or Rose not playing up to par, as well as he can play back up to the Centers. A few years seasoning could get rid of any attitude and with Aguirre's help he could be very very impressive down the road. Its low risk, high payoff.

Graham gives you someone thats not looking to shoot shoot shoot...a gritty defensive player the likes of Charles Oakley only smaller and more powerful. Graham is obviously NBA ready and with his leadership would also really help Ariza who honestly is not ready for starter minutes just yet. With these two guys at the 3 i see no reason why they can get 24min and 20 min in real games with J. Williams picking up the slack in garbage time as well as if any injuries or sicknesses arise.

Ukic is a player that has TREMENDOUS talent and can back up Marbury very very well. If Crawford struggles Marbury can slid over and Ukic can log some decent minutes and with his size will help in alot of areas. Once he gets his shot more consistent and he adds a few pounds he'll be an effective combo gaurd with his height being a great attribute.

James is the starting Center and Hunter the backup but i could see them both pushing eachother and making eachother succeed. A 4 and 5 of Hunter and James is truely impressive defensively and no slouch on the boards. Sweetney still gets his minutes at PF but if he doesnt produce or gets traded, an intense engergetic Rose is right there to help out as well as Hunter and Taft.


I think this lineup would be a shoe in for playoffs and with their size and balance could threaten alot of teams.


What do you think

 

[j0se]

Ukic on the Knicks....lol he's a combo guard, we already have Crawford, yeh he has alot of talent, but his perimeter defense will degrade what we need, perimeter defense...I would of liked to draft Bynum @ 8 Garcia @ 21 Blatche @ 30, but the Draft is over, I gotta be happy with what I got...=

 

[Custodianrules2]

I'm totally with Tribute on this one. Wait and see what happens this season at least. The knicks have an okay roster that looks okay on paper, but in actual play it may pan out differently, especially if Isiah has a hankerin to do some more tinkerin'.

I guess some optimism is good, but I think too much is jinxing it.

 

[crazyrussianz]

Lets judge them when they get on the court...

 

[02civic]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting j0se:</div><div class="quote_post">Ukic on the Knicks....lol he's a combo guard, we already have Crawford, yeh he has alot of talent, but his perimeter defense will degrade what we need, perimeter defense...I would of liked to draft Bynum @ 8 Garcia @ 21 Blatche @ 30, but the Draft is over, I gotta be happy with what I got...= </div>


Ukic is a true pass first point gaurd. He has the ability to play SG with his height but i wouldnt call him a combo gaurd because he's not strong enough or a consistent enough outside shot. The simularities between Ukic and Crawford start and end with the fact they both play basketball.
The problem with who you would of drafted is then you'd have NO reliable backup to Crawford or Marbury. Houston and Penny arent people you want to depend on and the 10-day contract guys are a big downgrade.

I'm just in awe of the potential turn around from last season a James, Hunter, Graham combo could give you...not to mention the future talent of Taft and Ukic who could take over for the Knicks after Marb's, James and Rose are out.
It would of been a sweet lineup and i know you guys would of been happy with the grit, the rebounds and the defense.

 

[Chutney]

Wow, there's so many different issues in this thread.

First of all 02civic, it seems that every time you post in other forums you bring up the Raps. That first person only made a joke about Babcock and you got way too defensive. You can defend Babcocks moves as much as you want, but everybody has the right to question what he has done so far. The Araujo pick? The VC trade? Not trading Donyell? This year's draft? You can't expect everyone to agree with a GM when he continues to defy popular opinion. He may have some master plan waiting to unfold itself, but until it does you should just accept the fact that Babcock is seen as a joke across the league.

Now back to actual topic of this thread. I may question Babcock, but I'd rather have him over Isiah, because he seems to understand the concept of a cap. Isiah has a horrible problem of not accepting that the Knicks need to rebuild. When he took over it would have been a simple process of waiting and drafting right. But after what he has done, he will have swing some creative trades and wait even longer if he intends to clean up his mess. I'm not sure what his vision for this team is, but all I can see is a team that fights for the 8th playoff spot year after year. It's like Isiah is building his team on NBA Live, because he ignores important aspects like defense and compatibility. Isiah is more responsible for the current cap situation than Layden. I'm not sure what the creator of this thread saw that opened his eyes, but I have to agree with Tribute on Isiah and the Knicks: he needs to be fired and his team needs to be dismantled.

 

[el_guasibiri]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Tribute to H2O
In which case we would be thanking Layden and not Isiah</div>


Are you insane!!!!! I will slap Layden in his face for making our Playoff knicks team into a nightmare.Isiah took the job already the knicks been deep down in the bottom.And what does he make,he drafted Trevor Ariza in the 2004 draft.Last season we didn't make the playoffs because of our health problem.We were at the top of the Atlantic and we almost make the 8 or 7 spot in the playoff.So I wouln't be taking all on isiah.And what does he does now he aquired the league best 3 point shooter in Richardson and finally he solve's the problem in the middle.I like Jerome James I don't care if he only get 5 points a game.I don't want him for scoring I want him for rebounds.I will be satisfide if he get's me 2 points with 9 or 10 rebound's a game. playing only 20 minutes.So look for the knicks to become a winning team again this year.

 

[j0se]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting el_guasibiri:</div><div class="quote_post">Are you insane!!!!! I will slap Layden in his face for making our Playoff knicks team into a nightmare.Isiah took the job already the knicks been deep down in the bottom.And what does he make,he drafted Trevor Ariza in the 2004 draft.Last season we didn't make the playoffs because of our health problem.We were at the top of the Atlantic and we almost make the 8 or 7 spot in the playoff.So I wouln't be taking all on isiah.And what does he does now he aquired the league best 3 point shooter in Richardson and finally he solve's the problem in the middle.I like Jerome James I don't care if he only get 5 points a game.I don't want him for scoring I want him for rebounds.I will be satisfide if he get's me 2 points with 9 or 10 rebound's a game. playing only 20 minutes.So look for the knicks to become a winning team again this year.</div>

Papo, Jerome James isn't that type of rebounder, he's an average one.

 

[Tribute to H2O]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting el_guasibiri:</div><div class="quote_post">Are you insane!!!!! I will slap Layden in his face for making our Playoff knicks team into a nightmare.Isiah took the job already the knicks been deep down in the bottom.And what does he make,he drafted Trevor Ariza in the 2004 draft.Last season we didn't make the playoffs because of our health problem.We were at the top of the Atlantic and we almost make the 8 or 7 spot in the playoff.So I wouln't be taking all on isiah.And what does he does now he aquired the league best 3 point shooter in Richardson and finally he solve's the problem in the middle.I like Jerome James I don't care if he only get 5 points a game.I don't want him for scoring I want him for rebounds.I will be satisfide if he get's me 2 points with 9 or 10 rebound's a game. playing only 20 minutes.So look for the knicks to become a winning team again this year.</div>

I tried reading through the thread to see where exactly you quoted me from but I couldnt find that quote. Which post is it in? I'm pretty sure you're taking that quote completely out of context since I think both Layden and Isiah are to blame for the Knicks current plight. As I said before the Knicks were going through a transition when Layden took over and he messed up by giving his pals Shandon Anderson and Howard Eisley way too much money. That combined with the fact Marcus Camby always had some sort of injury is what did the Knicks in. Isiah may have inherited a bad team but after all his moves were still a bad team. The only difference is this bad team is more expensive and has a bad looking future. Before Isiah came cap relief was in sight but now...we wont be under the cap for a long time which will be a serious problem when Sweetney's and Ariza's contracts end. Almost making the 8th spot in the Eastern Conference is nothing to be proud of and did you just say Richardson was the best long range shooter in the league??? James averaging 10 rebounds per game in twenty minutes??? Golly. I'm getting the feeling that trying to reason with you wont work. As it's already been pointed out James is an average rebounder but considering how weak we are in the middle(your hero Isiah traded away all of our centers)I'm happy he's here too. Knicks a winning team again?? Are you insane?!?!


Anyway I think Isiah Thomas should be fired.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">Even without Houston the team looked good on paper.</div>
It did look good on paper, but we lost another dimension of our game with Houston gone. Even if the team did look good on paper, it looks all the more better this year than it did last year.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You do realize Larry Brown already had a bunch of defensive minded players on his team dont you? The only player on the Pistons who wasnt a particularly good defender before he met up with Larry Brown was Rip Hamilton and maybe Chauncey Billups.</div>
You just gave me two names that Larry Brown has turned around defensively. Why are you ruling out Crawford and Marbury? Nate, Ariza, JYD, James and Rose are all defensive minded players and they will all have significant minutes. In addition, we have some decent defenders who can become better with the help of Larry Brown if we sign him.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Oh please. Just because their two terrific ball handlers doesnt mean they compliment each other well. Crawford's shot is definetely better when taking the right shots too bad he'll never learn what the right shots are. And he's not going to be coming off the bench he'll most likely be starting.</div>
The way they penetrate and kick it out to one another is a good about their game. Did you know that 54% of the time, Crawford?s field goals come from an assists from Marbury.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">His defense could stand to improve??? So you say Houston is "terrible defensively" and then say Q can stand to improve?? That's just amazing. The way you can ridiculously exaggerate one point and then ridiculously downplay another. You have a gift...ever thought about becoming a politician? As far as I'm concerned the less he does the better, spotting up and shooting the trey seems to be his best attribute. You do realize Mutumbo is one of the greatest shot blockers in history and Jerome James is Jerome James and Channing Frye is Channing Frye dont you?</div>
Put it this way: Quentin Richardson is as good as or better than Houston is defensively. So if you say Houston is a ?decent defender? than automatically, Richardson is at least a decent defender.

The thing about Mutombo is the near-40 year old was a great shot blocker and the only shot blocker on or team. One cannot dispute Mutombo doing an excellent job locking down the paint in the minutes he received. But when it all boils down, he averaged 1.9 blocks per game. If that was good enough to make us decent defensively, surely both Channing Frye and Jerome James combined could average more than 1.9 blocks per game; therefore, our defense won?t be as bad as you?re making it out to be.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Nope. Sweetney will not get alot of touches in the low post. With guys like Marbury, Crawford and Q out on the perimeter the only time Sweetney will see the ball is in shoot around. He'll probably be reduced to getting garbage points and with Crawford and Q launching trey after trey he'll be getting quite a few.</div>
Q and Crawford will be throwing up many shot attempts and Sweetney being the beast he is on the boards, will have many opportunities to take advantage. Also, establishing a low post presence early in the game, will increase the space for the perimeter and knowing this, the ball will be fed to them. Brown (if we get him) will preach that, too. If they don?t like it, they will be traded.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Our rebounding wont be bad. We're going to do alright in that department. Sweetney is a great rebounder so he'll make up for Jerome James and Q is a better rebounder than TT. But with our kind of defense...I wont be expecting a whole lot of defensive rebounds.</div>
James and Frye blocking shots will upgrade our defense a notch and Brown?s philosophy of coaching will upgrade our defense a notch.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Wow I didnt know that about Q. I wonder how many times he's gambled, lost his man and left him open. But why am I asking that? It's not like he shows up on defense anyway so he wasnt gambling anything.</div>
As I said before, Q is as good or better than Allan Houston is defensively and you said he was a decent defender so how could Q not show up on defense?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Lampe, two draft picks, lots of salary cap room and the beginning of the end for Frank Williams. That's what the Knicks lost out on when they made that trade for Marbury.</div>
Lampe could be good, but he isn?t showing any signs of getting better and already in 3 years, he?s been on 3 teams. He is young and talented, but by trading him, we ensured a 20/8 player and an all-star caliber player. Whether Lampe can perform up to that level was too risky to pass up.

I liked Frank Williams, but with Marbury ? a point guard who was clearly better than him and maybe a player who will probably always be better than him, he wasn?t our future anymore. In addition, we traded Williams for young talent. In the deal, we got Jamal Crawford who is the same age as Williams only better and more talented.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">At the time it was a risky move. In hindsight it was a pretty bad trade. I certainly hope your not saying Lampe is a bust afterall you argued in another thread that he shouldnt be considered a bust. It's a little more complicated than deciding between Lampe and Marbury.</div>
I don?t think it was too risky of a move. And no, I don?t think Lampe is a bust. It?s much too early to tell, but whether or not he becomes an elite power forward in the league is yet to be seen. Marbury is an elite level player and trading him for Lampe wasn?t risky.

I just want to know the risks involved. We traded Antonio McDyess? shot up knees and expiring contract, two aging 30+ year old point guards, two first rounders (perhaps the only bad part of the trade) and Milos Vujanic for a star player in Marbury, a good role player in Hardaway and Trybanski.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Just a little. The deal put an end to all hopes of the Knicks getting out of salary cap Hell and little over a year later we have nothing to show for it.</div>
It also gave us hope for the present instead of looking to rebuild and representing New York in a horrible fashion.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">We had a good group of young promising players and now it's gone and again no improvement. You do realize that if the Knicks didnt make that deal they could have gotten Dwight Howard, Okafor or Ben Gordon and Ariza to go along with Sweetney, Williams and Lampe?</div>
You do realize that those were all top 3 picks, right? So unless you were hoping the Knicks to have won somewhere between 23-28 games, there is no way we would gotten those picks. So you?re saying you blame Isiah for taking us to the playoffs that year instead of making us suck to give us Howard, Okafor or Gordon?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The Knicks would have had a bunch of good young players and been able to get under the salary cap and sign a big time free agent at the same time as the young guys finished maturing. That would have been a bright future but nope Isiah has to go for the flashy move. He has to get the big name guys.</div>
We already have a bright future with all of these young guys we have right now: Q, Crawford, Ariza, Sweetney, Lee, Frye, Robinson, and Butler. With the direction the team is going in now, Free Agents might sign with us because we could become a great team with their help.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The fact that he's willing to deal Sweetney for Kwame Brown alone makes me want to fire him. I mean how stupid can you be?? All any idiot has to do is look at Brown and all the lazy bums that came before him to know that Brown shouldnt be in the NBA. If Kwame Brown fits the direction of this team then the Knicks are in bigger trouble than I first thought.</div>
Isiah is a risk taker and although Kwame hasn?t done well in the league so far, don?t forget there is a reason why he was the #1 pick back in 2001. If he reached a shell of his potential, he can become an elite center in the league. The weird part about Brown is despite being lazy, he over the course of his career has slightly better numbers than Sweetney. Also Isiah would have removed one of our 6 power forwards from the team.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">READ MY LIPS. IF YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM!!! PERIOD! ISIAH THOMAS COULD HAVE FIXED THE SALARY CAP PROBLEMS BUT HE DIDNT! HE CONTINUED DOING WHAT LAYDEN WAS DOING! THEREFORE HE IS JUST AS WRONG AS LAYDEN! I HATE WHEN PEOPLE TRY TO DEFEND ISIAH THOMAS WHEN HE'S DOING EXACTLY WHAT LAYDEN DID! I'm sorry for the caps lock but I do hate it when people say the cap situation isnt Isiah's fault and I do want to make sure you dont miss anything I said because it looks like you did in my earlier post.</div>
That doesn?t mean anything. Because he didn?t start from scratch and rip the whole thing a part he?s equally as bad? It does not. Isiah has slightly risen the awful cap Layden made.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Mediocre teams go to the lottery you know and I'd rather not be hover around either. I'd rather fire Isiah, trade Marbury and rebuild around our young talent and hang around championship contender a few years from now.</div>
So we should trade away our best player to rebuild? Marbury is an elite point guard and other than his defense, what other flaw does he have? He gives us 20/8 every game and if you trade him, you better get an all-star caliber point guard in return and currently, there are no point guards on the market like that.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The Knicks were a team in transition. Their championship years were behind them. He didnt tear apart anything. Ewing was old, Larry Johnson had back problems, Childs wasnt doing good and so on. Layden just made bad moves when he was trying to get them through the transitional period.</div>
The way he dealt with that period is why we were so bad. Overpaying player after player and making terrible draft decisions was his trademark. There is a reason why he is probably the most hated person amongst Knick fans.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">We are at the same place we were with Layden. This sorry team costs more than Layden's did. Therefore we were getting the most out of our money under Layden. It's really simple when you think about it.</div>
The reason why it does is because he was put into a terrible position. Also how do you know it?s sorry if you?ve never seen the team play? Please tell me that.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Rebuilding is the right direction. Layden didnt do it and neither is Isiah. Isiah could have started the rebuilding process but he didnt. So he is just as bad as Layden. Period. Isiah is heading into the same direction as Layden except he's making flashy moves and smiling that stupid smile while he's doing it.</div>
I seem to remember you praising Layden a couple of times but you?re neglecting Isiah?s praise. Isiah is rebuilding; only this time instead of completely deflating our team, he is getting younger and more talented and is about to get arguably the best coach in the NBA! What would you do if he got Larry?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Please. Jordan didnt traded from the Bulls to another team and watch the Bulls get better. But every single team Marbury has been on has gotten better when he left. From the T wolves to the Nets(that's right right?) to the Suns and finally to the Knicks. Elton Brand isnt on a good team which is why he hasnt been past the first round. If he went to another team he'll be fine but the same cant be said of Marbury. Marbury plain and simple is not a winner.</div>
First of all, the T?Wolves didn?t get better; they lost in the first round every single year after Marbury left. Please, don?t put that on Marbury?s shoulders. The Nets had an unfortunate string of injuries when he was there and they also had additions such as Richard Jefferson and Todd Macculoch to their team which was a luxury Marbury didn?t have. With the Suns, Marbury took them to the playoffs where they went to Game 6 with the eventual NBA champion NBA Spurs. He also helped turn Amare to the Rookie of the Year. What about Kevin Garnett; he?s never won and he?s had 50+ win teams a few times. Why is it that he couldn?t take his team to the playoffs? He?s a loser too!

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Then think harder. Eight out of ten people would have said Houston was the best shooter in the league. The other two would have probably said Peja or Ray Allen. This is a fact. A very mainstream fact. I dont want to discuss this fact again. It makes me wonder whether or not you watched basketball prior to this past season(I'm being very serious). Houston was an elite shooting guard prior to his injury. Very few people if any could put the ball in the basket like he could. So yes 90 million dollars is more than reasonable especially when you consider he was a winner unlike you know who.</div>
According to whom? You? In terms of shooting, Houston was not on another level than Ray Allen or Peja. Both Peja and Allen shot very high in fact, Peja shot higher around that time. In terms of everything else, they were both better at rebounding, passing and things such as defense. So wouldn?t that mean Peja and Ray should get about 90 million? In addition, Houston was never a great rebounder or passer or defender for him to qualify for that time of money.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You are certainly right. It does take more than one player to make an entire team a good defensive team. However it only takes one player to make a good defensive team an average defensive team. And if Houston was bad as you claim he was then the Knicks would have been only average not good. There's a saying: "A lie told often enough becomes the truth." Instead of just repeating everything you hear why dont you pop in a game tape and make up your own mind.</div>
I?ve watched Houston plenty of times and he is not a decent defender. And why would everyone say he is such a bad defender? Is this a random thing? No, one person cannot deduct the overall persona of a defensive team. Someone like ?the big, sloppy, chump? isn?t a good defender, but despite that fact, Chicago is an excellent defensive team.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes it is my opinion. And no there is no point in arguing over that because anyone who disagreed with me would lose.

</div>
I personally think Marbury is the better player than Houston. Other than his questionable attitude, Marbury is as good of a player than Houston. He beats him in just about every single category.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Oh. Now i wish you were talking about the rookies. Nate Robinson and David Lee will be All Stars before Q and Crawford does have the potential but I doubt he's going to realize it.</div>
We?ll have to wait and see. I have a strong feeling Q will emerge with the Knicks this season. But again, we?ll just have to wait.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Of course Ican. Maybe you cant but I can. I didnt say anything about the Bulls or those other teams. And no the Knicks cant or rather wont unless one of the pre-Isiah acquisitions steps up.</div>
The point is while a team might look bad, it certainly is capable of defying expectations. Before seeing anything, no one can know what will happen.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No I really dont owe Isiah anything. So far his tenure here has been awful. If Larry Brown comes over and wins it wont be because of Isiah Thomas' moves it will be despite them. You can keep your stomach turning optimism but I tried that before. Remember how excited I was in the preseason last year? The Knicks issues from the past season have not really been resolved so this time around I'd rather be honest with myself and bunker down for another disaster of a season.</div>
But Isiah?s moves haven?t even be completed. We got David Lee thanks to Isiah and a first rounder next year thanks to Isiah. We got 2 potential all-stars thanks to Isiah and the list goes on. It has been decent and we need to give him credit. Even if you hate the man, you need to give him his props he deserves which have yet to do.

 

[Tribute to H2O]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">It did look good on paper, but we lost another dimension of our game with Houston gone. Even if the team did look good on paper, it looks all the more better this year than it did last year.</div>

Yes it looks even better on paper this year but take a look at what you said. You brought up the fact the Knicks lost perimeter shooting with Houston gone. That issue has still not been resolved.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">You just gave me two names that Larry Brown has turned around defensively. Why are you ruling out Crawford and Marbury? Nate, Ariza, JYD, James and Rose are all defensive minded players and they will all have significant minutes. In addition, we have some decent defenders who can become better with the help of Larry Brown if we sign him.</div>

You think this will be the first time Marbury had a coach who tried to get him to play defense? It doesnt matter who it is Marbury will not play defense for anyone because that's just who he is.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">The way they penetrate and kick it out to one another is a good about their game. Did you know that 54% of the time, Crawford?s field goals come from an assists from Marbury.</div>

I didnt know that little bit of information. Do you know Crawford's field goal percentage? I'll give you a hint: It's less than 40%. That is not efficient or effective basketball. Crawford isnt a good shooter so he does not compliment Marbury at all and Crawford never attacks the basket not that it would make a difference since Marbury's not a good shooter either.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Put it this way: Quentin Richardson is as good as or better than Houston is defensively. So if you say Houston is a ?decent defender? than automatically, Richardson is at least a decent defender.</div>

Did you even see the playoffs this season?? Did you see what Manu Ginobli did to Richardson? Houston would have not let Ginobli walk all over him. You're just saying Richardson is as good as Houston to make Richardson look better than he actually is. Richardson is far from decent. At least Houston has stepped up his defense in the playoffs if you dont believe me you can watch old Knicks playoff tapes.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">The thing about Mutombo is the near-40 year old was a great shot blocker and the only shot blocker on or team. One cannot dispute Mutombo doing an excellent job locking down the paint in the minutes he received. But when it all boils down, he averaged 1.9 blocks per game. If that was good enough to make us decent defensively, surely both Channing Frye and Jerome James combined could average more than 1.9 blocks per game; therefore, our defense won?t be as bad as you?re making it out to be.</div>

Did you also count the countless amount of shots that he altered around the basket? You obviously didnt. Neither Jerome James nor Channing Fyre will be nearly as intimidating as Mutumbo.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Q and Crawford will be throwing up many shot attempts and Sweetney being the beast he is on the boards, will have many opportunities to take advantage. Also, establishing a low post presence early in the game, will increase the space for the perimeter and knowing this, the ball will be fed to them. Brown (if we get him) will preach that, too. If they don?t like it, they will be traded.</div>

Dont lecture me on what Sweetney brings to the table. I'm the one who wants to keep him and you're the one who thinks trading him for Kwame Brown is a good idea remember? Nazr Mohammed was one of the league leaders in offensive rebounds and Kurt Thomas averaged a double double but despite the great rebounders we had hoisting shot after shot from the perimeter and hoping to get the offensive rebound didnt work last season and there's no reason to believe it will work this coming season.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">James and Frye blocking shots will upgrade our defense a notch and Brown?s philosophy of coaching will upgrade our defense a notch.</div>

Brown can only do so much. It's up to the players to decide to play defense and knowing Marbury that isnt likely to happen.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">As I said before, Q is as good or better than Allan Houston is defensively and you said he was a decent defender so how could Q not show up on defense?</div>

What you said before was complete utter bullshit and you know it so it doesnt matter what you said. Houston is not a particularly good defender in fact he's barely decent but that's alot more than can be said for Richardson. Hey just ask Manu.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Lampe could be good, but he isn?t showing any signs of getting better and already in 3 years, he?s been on 3 teams. He is young and talented, but by trading him, we ensured a 20/8 player and an all-star caliber player. Whether Lampe can perform up to that level was too risky to pass up.

I liked Frank Williams, but with Marbury ? a point guard who was clearly better than him and maybe a player who will probably always be better than him, he wasn?t our future anymore. In addition, we traded Williams for young talent. In the deal, we got Jamal Crawford who is the same age as Williams only better and more talented.</div>

Who cares about his stats? He's a loser. Isiah Thomas handicapped the Knicks future to obtain a loser. All Star calibur? Who cares? He's a loser. Marbury might be more talented than both Frank Williams and Lampe combined but the Knicks would have been better off developing those two than throwing away their future for some guy who's never been out of the first round. And Frank Williams would have definetely been a better player than Crawford. He was leagues ahead in defense, was a pure playermaker, had good shot selection and actually had a position. Crawford may be more talented but Frank Williams would have certainly become the better player.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">I don?t think it was too risky of a move. And no, I don?t think Lampe is a bust. It?s much too early to tell, but whether or not he becomes an elite power forward in the league is yet to be seen. Marbury is an elite level player and trading him for Lampe wasn?t risky.

I just want to know the risks involved. We traded Antonio McDyess? shot up knees and expiring contract, two aging 30+ year old point guards, two first rounders (perhaps the only bad part of the trade) and Milos Vujanic for a star player in Marbury, a good role player in Hardaway and Trybanski.</div>

What the Hell are you talking about??? I just said the damn risks!! The future of the franchise!!! IS THAT NOT REGISTERING WITH YOU??? Marbury is a loser and that's all he'll ever be. Who cares if he's an elite point guard if he cant win??? We traded a young promising big man, loads of salary which could have gotten us under the cap sooner rather than later, two potential lottery picks and crushed the development of Frank Williams who was doing a great job running the point. So we traded away our future center, future point guard, ability to sign a big time free agent for a few extra years, a European point guard who I hear is doing very well and may be coming over soon, and two young guys promising players in the draft picks. All of that on the off chance that a career loser could help the Knicks win right away.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">It also gave us hope for the present instead of looking to rebuild and representing New York in a horrible fashion.</div>

Oh yeah. I'm full of hope right now. By the way how do you think the Knicks led by Marbury represented New York this past season?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">You do realize that those were all top 3 picks, right? So unless you were hoping the Knicks to have won somewhere between 23-28 games, there is no way we would gotten those picks. So you?re saying you blame Isiah for taking us to the playoffs that year instead of making us suck to give us Howard, Okafor or Gordon? </div>

It's still possible we could have gotten one of them and if we didnt there were other talented rookies in that draft. I'd rather have gone to the lottery and had a shot of picking up a good rookie with potential than to have gotten swept by the team across the Hudson in the first round.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">We already have a bright future with all of these young guys we have right now: Q, Crawford, Ariza, Sweetney, Lee, Frye, Robinson, and Butler. With the direction the team is going in now, Free Agents might sign with us because we could become a great team with their help.</div>

At this rate we wont be able to retain either Sweetney or Ariza when their rookie contracts end. And considering the way Isiah just got rid of Lampe, the draft picks and killed Frank Williams' development I wouldnt be surprised to see one or more of those guys(the ones worth having I mean like Lee, Robinson and Butler) get traded for some big name player with a big contract that doesnt play defense and just doesnt mesh well with the team.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Isiah is a risk taker and although Kwame hasn?t done well in the league so far, don?t forget there is a reason why he was the #1 pick back in 2001. If he reached a shell of his potential, he can become an elite center in the league. The weird part about Brown is despite being lazy, he over the course of his career has slightly better numbers than Sweetney. Also Isiah would have removed one of our 6 power forwards from the team.</div>

Isiah a risk taker? I dont know. I was leaning more towards sucker. The reason why Brown was the number one selection is because Jordan made a huge mistake. As for Brown's numbers being better than Sweetney's you can chalk that one up to Marbury and Crawford just shooting the ball without conscience and their going to do it again this season. You mean Isiah would have removed our best powerforward from the team.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">That doesn?t mean anything. Because he didn?t start from scratch and rip the whole thing a part he?s equally as bad? It does not. Isiah has slightly risen the awful cap Layden made.</div>

YES! Your finally getting it!!! The Knicks should have rebuilt but Layden didnt do it and Isiah didnt do it so their both guilty. It doesnt matter if he raised the cap by a single damned dollar! Fact of the matter is he raised it and didnt help the situation.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">So we should trade away our best player to rebuild? Marbury is an elite point guard and other than his defense, what other flaw does he have? He gives us 20/8 every game and if you trade him, you better get an all-star caliber point guard in return and currently, there are no point guards on the market like that.</div>

He's selfish, he doesnt know how to win, his shot selection isnt good either, he's unclutch and he sabotages teams for personal reasons. I can think of a few point guards I'd rather have than Marbury.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">The way he dealt with that period is why we were so bad. Overpaying player after player and making terrible draft decisions was his trademark. There is a reason why he is probably the most hated person amongst Knick fans.</div>

Duh! I mean that's exactly what I said.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">The reason why it does is because he was put into a terrible position. Also how do you know it?s sorry if you?ve never seen the team play? Please tell me that.</div>

I use logic. Like the time I told you it was impossible for Frye to gain over 20 pounds of muscle but you didnt believe me. It's simple really. I highly recommend it.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">I seem to remember you praising Layden a couple of times but you?re neglecting Isiah?s praise. Isiah is rebuilding; only this time instead of completely deflating our team, he is getting younger and more talented and is about to get arguably the best coach in the NBA! What would you do if he got Larry?</div>

Praising Layden??? When??? Their both bad GM's!!! The only difference is Layden got what he deserved(fired!) and Isiah hasnt. ISIAH IS NOT REBUILDING! If he was rebuilding he would have traded Marbury. If the Knicks are truly rebuilding than Marbury has no place here. And what do you mean what would I do if he got Larry? That all of a sudden makes him a good GM?? That's a no brainer! I mean where's the skill and genius in that?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">First of all, the T?Wolves didn?t get better; they lost in the first round every single year after Marbury left. Please, don?t put that on Marbury?s shoulders. The Nets had an unfortunate string of injuries when he was there and they also had additions such as Richard Jefferson and Todd Macculoch to their team which was a luxury Marbury didn?t have. With the Suns, Marbury took them to the playoffs where they went to Game 6 with the eventual NBA champion NBA Spurs. He also helped turn Amare to the Rookie of the Year. What about Kevin Garnett; he?s never won and he?s had 50+ win teams a few times. Why is it that he couldn?t take his team to the playoffs? He?s a loser too!</div>

The T wolves were still better off when he left. Yes I know Marbury has an excuse for every situation. It's never his fault. It's always something else that goes wrong. I'm sick of his excuses. Even if he had Richard Jefferson and Macculoch it wouldnt have mattered. He would have played the same selfish game. In Richard Jefferson was lucky Marbury left as he was coming in otherwise Marbury may have damaged his career like he did Van Horn's. Garnett did take his team to the playoffs. He just lost there. How many times did Marbury go to the playoffs?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">According to whom? You? In terms of shooting, Houston was not on another level than Ray Allen or Peja. Both Peja and Allen shot very high in fact, Peja shot higher around that time. In terms of everything else, they were both better at rebounding, passing and things such as defense. So wouldn?t that mean Peja and Ray should get about 90 million? In addition, Houston was never a great rebounder or passer or defender for him to qualify for that time of money.</div>

Yes according to me. I didnt say he was way above them. I simply said he was considered to be the best shooter in the league. Peja was not(probably still isnt) a particularly good rebounder or defender or passer. The fact that Peja could not create his own shot made Houston better. And yes Ray Allen was better in just about every other aspect but in terms of shooting Houston was better still. Ray Allen definetely deserves more than 90 million dollars!!! He's a terrific player! And as I already said before the fact that Peja needed a good big man or a great point guard to get him the wide open looks he needed makes him a lesser player than Houston. But for Peja 75 million dollars doesnt sound too bad. Then there are Houston's credentials. His resume was impressive to say the least, he was as durable a player as they come, proven in the playoffs, clutch and a winner.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">I?ve watched Houston plenty of times and he is not a decent defender. And why would everyone say he is such a bad defender? Is this a random thing? No, one person cannot deduct the overall persona of a defensive team. Someone like ?the big, sloppy, chump? isn?t a good defender, but despite that fact, Chicago is an excellent defensive team.</div>

Everyone says he's a bad defender because everyone else says it. Most people dont think for themselves. They just listen to what everyone else says and believe its true because everyone says it. That's people in a nutshell. Dumb and ignorant. I told you already all you have to do is pop in a game tape and make up your own mind but I guess you cant do that(make up your own mind that is). Curry is not a good defender but he's not below average. If he was he'd be such a liability the Bulls would not have been able to mask it.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">I personally think Marbury is the better player than Houston. Other than his questionable attitude, Marbury is as good of a player than Houston. He beats him in just about every single category.</div>

All Marbury has on Houston are his stats. The only category that matters is the win/loss category. Houston's played in more playoff games than Marbury has teeth and played in more big games than all of the playoff games Marbury played in his entire career. As I said before Marbury is selfish, unclutch, doesnt know how to win, a poor team player, as Isiah Thomas put it "the worst defensive guard in the league" and most importantly a career loser. All the stats in the world cover this up. The highlight of his career was a first round elimination. Houston is just the opposite. Until he does something worth mentioning it's not even fair to Houston to compare him to Marbury. Actually it's not fair to compare Marbury to anybody who's actually won anything and gone anywhere so will the Marbury and Kidd comparisons please end?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">We?ll have to wait and see. I have a strong feeling Q will emerge with the Knicks this season. But again, we?ll just have to wait.</div>

No he wont.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">The point is while a team might look bad, it certainly is capable of defying expectations. Before seeing anything, no one can know what will happen.</div>

Oh yes I can see what will happen before it happens and I foresee disaster.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">But Isiah?s moves haven?t even be completed. We got David Lee thanks to Isiah and a first rounder next year thanks to Isiah. We got 2 potential all-stars thanks to Isiah and the list goes on. It has been decent and we need to give him credit. Even if you hate the man, you need to give him his props he deserves which have yet to do.</div>

I'm afraid of what his next moves are. Richardson will never be an All Star and neither will Crawford. Isiah Thomas could not have messed up the last draft. Oh wait he did by drafting Channing Frye. I mean to say he could not have messed up his other picks since the draft was so deep so I'm unimpressed with Isiah's draft. What I need to do is spit in his face and demand him to resign before he causes anymore damage.


Anyway I think Isiah Thomas should be fired.

 

[ROCK4LIFE]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">I tried reading through the thread to see where exactly you quoted me from but I couldnt find that quote. Which post is it in? I'm pretty sure you're taking that quote completely out of context since I think both Layden and Isiah are to blame for the Knicks current plight. As I said before the Knicks were going through a transition when Layden took over and he messed up by giving his pals Shandon Anderson and Howard Eisley way too much money. That combined with the fact Marcus Camby always had some sort of injury is what did the Knicks in. Isiah may have inherited a bad team but after all his moves were still a bad team. The only difference is this bad team is more expensive and has a bad looking future. Before Isiah came cap relief was in sight but now...we wont be under the cap for a long time which will be a serious problem when Sweetney's and Ariza's contracts end. Almost making the 8th spot in the Eastern Conference is nothing to be proud of and did you just say Richardson was the best long range shooter in the league??? James averaging 10 rebounds per game in twenty minutes??? Golly. I'm getting the feeling that trying to reason with you wont work. As it's already been pointed out James is an average rebounder but considering how weak we are in the middle(your hero Isiah traded away all of our centers)I'm happy he's here too. Knicks a winning team again?? Are you insane?!?!


Anyway I think Isiah Thomas should be fired.</div>
Isiah should have a year to prove hisself. Honestly, I'm willing to bet anybody in this room that the Knicks will be above 500. and make the playoffs this year. Not only that, win they're division. Place you're bets

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes it looks even better on paper this year but take a look at what you said. You brought up the fact the Knicks lost perimeter shooting with Houston gone. That issue has still not been resolved.</div>
Quentin Richardson adds a good perimeter shooter to the team. Although he isn?t on Houston?s level, he will become a threat to other teams playing alongside Marbury. Another reason why it looks better on paper is because we have 4 new players with James, Frye, Lee and Robinson on the team. Also Ariza and Sweetney are only getting better.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You think this will be the first time Marbury had a coach who tried to get him to play defense? It doesnt matter who it is Marbury will not play defense for anyone because that's just who he is.</div>
I?m not so sure about that. The same was said about Chauncey Billups. In fact, he even said something like ?I don?t try to change you, so don?t try to change me? when Brown told him not to launch up his transition treys. Also whatever Brown wants, Brown gets; meaning if Brown is having trouble with Marbury?s defense, he will be talking to Isiah and Isiah won?t hesitate to send him out of here. So if Marbury wants to remain a Knick, he will listen to Brown.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I didnt know that little bit of information. Do you know Crawford's field goal percentage? I'll give you a hint: It's less than 40%. That is not efficient or effective basketball. Crawford isnt a good shooter so he does not compliment Marbury at all and Crawford never attacks the basket not that it would make a difference since Marbury's not a good shooter either.</div>
Actually, Crawford is a good shooter; he just doesn?t take good shots hence his low field goal percentage. Despite taking terrible shots, his percentage from is 36% from downtown which is higher than the league average. I think Crawford was trying too hard which is why he took some bad shots. Now with more help, I expect his shot selection and shooting to increase. If not, he will be another player Isiah will ship out of New York.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Did you even see the playoffs this season?? Did you see what Manu Ginobli did to Richardson? Houston would have not let Ginobli walk all over him. You're just saying Richardson is as good as Houston to make Richardson look better than he actually is. Richardson is far from decent. At least Houston has stepped up his defense in the playoffs if you dont believe me you can watch old Knicks playoff tapes.</div>
Richardson struggling in the playoffs for the very first time in his career against the best defense in the league ion San Antonio is nothing to be ashamed of. I?ve watched Allan Houston plenty of times throughout his career and plenty of old Knicks games. Allan Houston is not a decent defender ? period. For some reason, you?re the only person that feels Allan Houston isn?t a sub par defensive player. I wonder why?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Did you also count the countless amount of shots that he altered around the basket? You obviously didnt. Neither Jerome James nor Channing Fyre will be nearly as intimidating as Mutumbo.</div>
Both of them can alter shots as well. Mutombo at age 38 is far less intimidating than him in his prime. Jerome James at 7-1, 270 pounds is very intimidating and to think he won?t be as effective as Mutombo is not true. Frye is also young and athletic and will be able to block shots with his height, wingspan and athleticism. Frye + James are at least equivalent to one Mutombo.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Dont lecture me on what Sweetney brings to the table. I'm the one who wants to keep him and you're the one who thinks trading him for Kwame Brown is a good idea remember? Nazr Mohammed was one of the league leaders in offensive rebounds and Kurt Thomas averaged a double double but despite the great rebounders we had hoisting shot after shot from the perimeter and hoping to get the offensive rebound didnt work last season and there's no reason to believe it will work this coming season.</div>
I said I would take the trade if I got Blatche as well. That would be a good trade for us. Sweetney is a good player in the league and I like him, but we have 6 power forwards on the team. Sweetney is not a fast break player, is not athletic so he isn?t an ideal fit for us. I do think he can help us, but we already have players that can do what he does and Both Kwame and Brown will be better than Sweetney. Blatche has superstar potential, and Kwame is decent despite the bad rap he gets for his work ethic.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Brown can only do so much. It's up to the players to decide to play defense and knowing Marbury that isnt likely to happen.</div>
As I said before, Brown is in charge and if he feels as if Marbury isn?t a good fit, than he?s gone. The same was said about Chauncey Billups? game and he changed. Why can?t Marbury?



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What you said before was complete utter bullshit and you know it so it doesnt matter what you said. Houston is not a particularly good defender in fact he's barely decent but that's alot more than can be said for Richardson. Hey just ask Manu.</div>
No it?s not, actually. You consistently bring up Richardson struggling against the best defensive team in the league to prove your point. Houston is not better than Richardson defensively. Both aren?t good defenders, but Houston isn?t a better defender than him. Even if you thought he was back in the 90?s that?s irrelevant because this is halfway through another decade. Houston is not in his 20?s anymore and can?t go back in time and I can say comfortably right now, Allan Houston is not a better defender than Quentin Richardson as sad as that sounds.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Who cares about his stats? He's a loser. Isiah Thomas handicapped the Knicks future to obtain a loser. All Star calibur? Who cares? He's a loser. Marbury might be more talented than both Frank Williams and Lampe combined but the Knicks would have been better off developing those two than throwing away their future for some guy who's never been out of the first round. And Frank Williams would have definetely been a better player than Crawford. He was leagues ahead in defense, was a pure playermaker, had good shot selection and actually had a position. Crawford may be more talented but Frank Williams would have certainly become the better player.</div>
What do you mean handicapped the Knicks future? He just got 3 guys in the draft! All 3 of them look like they can turn into decent players. Marbury and Williams played the same position and Marbury outshined Williams in every single category possible except defense. The Knicks were better off with Marbury instead of investing in 2 players who seem to be in relative obscurity right now. Frank Williams is in not a better player than Williams. If Frank Williams was as good as you said he is, why is he collecting dust on the Bulls? bench? Surely a player as good as him could find a way into the rotation at least, right?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What the Hell are you talking about??? I just said the damn risks!! The future of the franchise!!! IS THAT NOT REGISTERING WITH YOU??? Marbury is a loser and that's all he'll ever be. Who cares if he's an elite point guard if he cant win??? We traded a young promising big man, loads of salary which could have gotten us under the cap sooner rather than later, two potential lottery picks and crushed the development of Frank Williams who was doing a great job running the point. So we traded away our future center, future point guard, ability to sign a big time free agent for a few extra years, a European point guard who I hear is doing very well and may be coming over soon, and two young guys promising players in the draft picks. All of that on the off chance that a career loser could help the Knicks win right away.</div>
So because Marbury has been unfortunate throughout his career, we shouldn?t have gotten him? Passing him up would be stupid. All we gave up was Lampe ? a player not turning out as well as people thought he would; Eisley ? a 32 year old point guard who was overpayed; Ward ? a 34 year old point guard who wasn?t getting any younger; Milos Vujanic ? an overseas player still in Europe who looks to retire over there and never step foot in the NBA. Instead of lottery picks, one was instead turned into playoff berth which is something a team is supposed to do. Our free agency is fine and considering Allan Houston?s ridiculous contract is over in 2007, that?s the time to start signing big time free agents. In addition, a player can also sign with a winning team rather than a team that just sucks ? which would be us according to you. We barely gave up nothing for Marbury.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Oh yeah. I'm full of hope right now. By the way how do you think the Knicks led by Marbury represented New York this past season?</div>
Not too well, but our injuries and lack of a go-to-guy in the clutch is what really hurt our chances last season. Frank Williams and Lampe probably wouldn?t have given the Knicks that.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's still possible we could have gotten one of them and if we didnt there were other talented rookies in that draft. I'd rather have gone to the lottery and had a shot of picking up a good rookie with potential than to have gotten swept by the team across the Hudson in the first round.</div>
So the Knicks should have purposefully lost? The Knicks were good enough to get into the playoffs, and that?s what they did. You?re mad now that Isiah got us into the playoffs instead getting into the lottery.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">At this rate we wont be able to retain either Sweetney or Ariza when their rookie contracts end. And considering the way Isiah just got rid of Lampe, the draft picks and killed Frank Williams' development I wouldnt be surprised to see one or more of those guys(the ones worth having I mean like Lee, Robinson and Butler) get traded for some big name player with a big contract that doesnt play defense and just doesnt mesh well with the team.</div>
Considering we have their bird rights and hopefully after seeing the positive direction of the team, they will re-sign with us. Isiah got us 3 first round draft picks, too. I guess you forgot about those, right? He replaced Williams and Lampe who are both struggling with their current teams right now and you make them sound as if they?re suddenly the best duo in the world. The fact of them matter is Williams was developing into a good player, but he was very inconsistent, most likely not a future top point guard, and the way it looks now, maybe not able to make a team in the NBA. Marbury already was what Williams was and more. Lampe looks terrible right now and although he has time, he hasn?t done anything to suggest trading him for Marbury was a bad idea.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Isiah a risk taker? I dont know. I was leaning more towards sucker. The reason why Brown was the number one selection is because Jordan made a huge mistake. As for Brown's numbers being better than Sweetney's you can chalk that one up to Marbury and Crawford just shooting the ball without conscience and their going to do it again this season. You mean Isiah would have removed our best powerforward from the team.</div>
Even if he wasn?t a #1 pick, he sure was going to be a top 3 pick. If someone considered the greatest player in world sees something in you to call you the top pick in the draft, than you can?t discredit it. Kwame could turn out well and could be a better fit in New York than Sweetney is. Anyway, what does this matter? We don?t have Kwame Brown so why should we worry about what happened in the past?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">YES! Your finally getting it!!! The Knicks should have rebuilt but Layden didnt do it and Isiah didnt do it so their both guilty. It doesnt matter if he raised the cap by a single damned dollar! Fact of the matter is he raised it and didnt help the situation.</div>
No, it doesn?t mean that. What it means is Isiah didn?t tear apart the Knicks immediately and simply start from scratch. Isiah chose to go into a different direction and so far getting younger was the right direction we should go in instead of completely rebuilding and hoping we?ll get good. Rebuilding isn?t quick nor is it flawless. You aren?t instant contenders when you get rookies. Look at the Chicago Bulls. It took them many years to be a decent team and their young core might be turn a part through free agency.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He's selfish, he doesnt know how to win, his shot selection isnt good either, he's unclutch and he sabotages teams for personal reasons. I can think of a few point guards I'd rather have than Marbury.</div>
Neither does KG, Brand, or Jordan back when he was younger. His shot selection doesn?t seem so bad. And his shots can?t be so bad if he shoots 46% from the field and a pretty decent 35% from downtown. Not being clutch doesn?t make a player bad, being clutch just makes a player good. There are tons of unclutch players who happened to be very good. In the clutch, either you have it or you don?t and Marbury doesn?t. I can think of a few shooting guards I?d rather have over Houston, too.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I use logic. Like the time I told you it was impossible for Frye to gain over 20 pounds of muscle but you didnt believe me. It's simple really. I highly recommend it.</div>
I can?t neglect the reports from this site and everywhere else such as Insider etc. All I know is he?s in the best shape of his life according to him. Besides, I thought your primary source was your magic powers, not your logic.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Praising Layden??? When??? Their both bad GM's!!! The only difference is Layden got what he deserved(fired!) and Isiah hasnt. ISIAH IS NOT REBUILDING! If he was rebuilding he would have traded Marbury. If the Knicks are truly rebuilding than Marbury has no place here. And what do you mean what would I do if he got Larry? That all of a sudden makes him a good GM?? That's a no brainer! I mean where's the skill and genius in that?</div>
I remember some threads where you said some things like I wish I had Layden back or I liked his ideas they just never turned out right. And about him if he gets Larry, we need to give him props. Part of the reason why Isiah is in a good position to get Larry is because they?ve known each other for about 25 years. With another GM, it could turn out differently. Even if you consider the move a no-brainer, at least give him credit for doing it. You never give credit and you?re so negative about him even though he?s done some good moves for us.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The T wolves were still better off when he left. Yes I know Marbury has an excuse for every situation. It's never his fault. It's always something else that goes wrong. I'm sick of his excuses. Even if he had Richard Jefferson and Macculoch it wouldnt have mattered. He would have played the same selfish game. In Richard Jefferson was lucky Marbury left as he was coming in otherwise Marbury may have damaged his career like he did Van Horn's. Garnett did take his team to the playoffs. He just lost there. How many times did Marbury go to the playoffs?</div>
Yup, the excuses are coming. It doesn?t matter they still didn?t make it out of the first round and you?re making such a big deal about that. Kidd played with more matured players, better players, and without injuries. I?m sure Marbury could?ve done better if he had the benefits Kidd had.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes according to me. I didnt say he was way above them. I simply said he was considered to be the best shooter in the league. Peja was not(probably still isnt) a particularly good rebounder or defender or passer. The fact that Peja could not create his own shot made Houston better. And yes Ray Allen was better in just about every other aspect but in terms of shooting Houston was better still. Ray Allen definetely deserves more than 90 million dollars!!! He's a terrific player! And as I already said before the fact that Peja needed a good big man or a great point guard to get him the wide open looks he needed makes him a lesser player than Houston. But for Peja 75 million dollars doesnt sound too bad. Then there are Houston's credentials. His resume was impressive to say the least, he was as durable a player as they come, proven in the playoffs, clutch and a winner.</div>
Yeah, of course it?s according to you ? that?s your favorite player. You see Allan Houston as a superstar while everyone else sees him as a guy who can shoot very well but someone who is sub par defensively, a guy who is a terrible rebounder, a bad passer and way overpaid.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Everyone says he's a bad defender because everyone else says it. Most people dont think for themselves. They just listen to what everyone else says and believe its true because everyone says it. That's people in a nutshell. Dumb and ignorant. I told you already all you have to do is pop in a game tape and make up your own mind but I guess you cant do that(make up your own mind that is). Curry is not a good defender but he's not below average. If he was he'd be such a liability the Bulls would not have been able to mask it.</div>
And how did this just come? It?s just a random rumor made up because everyone hates on Allan, I guess. Ask just about any Knick fan and they?ll say Allan Houston is a below average defender. Some will even call him horrible defensively. And it?s not because they?re following everyone else says; it?s because they see him defending and realize he needs work. I don?t think Curry is as good defensively, but even if he was, my point is although you might have a great defensive team, that doesn?t mean every single player is a great defender.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">All Marbury has on Houston are his stats. The only category that matters is the win/loss category. Houston's played in more playoff games than Marbury has teeth and played in more big games than all of the playoff games Marbury played in his entire career. As I said before Marbury is selfish, unclutch, doesnt know how to win, a poor team player, as Isiah Thomas put it "the worst defensive guard in the league" and most importantly a career loser. All the stats in the world cover this up. The highlight of his career was a first round elimination. Houston is just the opposite. Until he does something worth mentioning it's not even fair to Houston to compare him to Marbury. Actually it's not fair to compare Marbury to anybody who's actually won anything and gone anywhere so will the Marbury and Kidd comparisons please end?</div>
That losing thing really has no merit to it because as I said before, KG, Brand, Jordan, were all losers at a particular time and they had stats on their side. Houston had the luxury of playing for the 90?s Knicks which is something Marbury couldn?t do.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No he wont.</div>
And you know this by?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Oh yes I can see what will happen before it happens and I foresee disaster.</div>
Who are you? Ms. Cleo? You?re not even giving them a chance.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm afraid of what his next moves are. Richardson will never be an All Star and neither will Crawford. Isiah Thomas could not have messed up the last draft. Oh wait he did by drafting Channing Frye. I mean to say he could not have messed up his other picks since the draft was so deep so I'm unimpressed with Isiah's draft. What I need to do is spit in his face and demand him to resign before he causes anymore damage.</div>
Again with your fortune telling powers?


--

First of all, let me say this is getting way off topic. From talking about Allan Houston, to Kwame Brown, to the 90?s Knicks, it?s just getting way off hand. I?m also tired of these 5 page long replies with multiple quote tags to put on. So from now on, I will start from here with my point.

You?re whole argument is based off of an assumption and you?re not even giving the Knicks a chance to prove themselves. History has shown us not to determine the fate of a team because just like last year, teams can defy expectations. You?re just saying this is going to happen and this will not and you can?t say that without knowing what?s going to happen in the season! For all we know, the Knicks could have a 50 win season or they could have another 33 win season.

So far Isiah has brought us 3 promising young prospects in the draft; he?s gotten rid of Kurt Thomas and although I liked him, it was time for him to go. He?s in a good position to get a Hall of Fame bound coach and possibly the best active coach in the league right now and signed Jerome James. Although it?s risky, James could be a great fit for us.

So basically, it seems as if Isiah did pretty well in the off season and while I?m not saying the team will do well, but we need to at least give him a chance. You?re not doing that and despite some of your great qualities, unfortunately, telling the future is not one of them and not anyone?s for that matter. Let?s see how everything turns out before we fire Isiah because for all we know, we could be one of the great turnarounds of the league next year.

 

[Skiptomylue11]

Knicks = plenty of offense, plenty of talent, plenty of athletic scorers

Brown -> Knicks = Knicks -> Better Team Defense = Knicks -> Playoffs

Brown might force Isiah to make a couple trades for a couple players during the season.

 

[og15]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting el_guasibiri:</div><div class="quote_post">Are you insane!!!!! I will slap Layden in his face for making our Playoff knicks team into a nightmare.Isiah took the job already the knicks been deep down in the bottom.And what does he make,he drafted Trevor Ariza in the 2004 draft.Last season we didn't make the playoffs because of our health problem.We were at the top of the Atlantic and we almost make the 8 or 7 spot in the playoff.So I wouln't be taking all on isiah.And what does he does now he aquired the league best 3 point shooter in Richardson and finally he solve's the problem in the middle.I like Jerome James I don't care if he only get 5 points a game.I don't want him for scoring I want him for rebounds.I will be satisfide if he get's me 2 points with 9 or 10 rebound's a game. playing only 20 minutes.So look for the knicks to become a winning team again this year.</div>
I think you would be the one that would be considered insane. If you read the post you took that from, he says the only way things will look good is if Sweetney becomes a premier PF, and then you'd have to thank Layden, not Isiah because Layden drafted Sweetney.

Their's nothing to reply to there, I don't know what you're even arguing about with the quote.

 

[02civic]

Tribute - I get from your last 100 posts that you hate everything to do with the moves Isiah as made.....but i'm interested in knowing what you would of done differently.

Who would you of drafted?
Who would you of traded K. Thomas for?
What additional trades would you of tried to make?
Who would you of signed instead of James and for how much?
Would you not hire Brown?

Dont go back in time about how you wouldnt do the Marbury trade, i get that much already. I'm just interested in knowing what you would of done differently starting this off season.

 

[Tribute to H2O]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">Tribute - I get from your last 100 posts that you hate everything to do with the moves Isiah as made.....but i'm interested in knowing what you would of done differently.

Who would you of drafted?
Who would you of traded K. Thomas for?
What additional trades would you of tried to make?
Who would you of signed instead of James and for how much?
Would you not hire Brown?

Dont go back in time about how you wouldnt do the Marbury trade, i get that much already. I'm just interested in knowing what you would of done differently starting this off season.</div>

Assuming that I'm the GM at the start of this offseason I would have traded Marbury for Cassell, Kandiman and two first round draft picks from the T wolves. I would have probably done the Q trade but instead of getting Nate Robinson I would have gotten Jarett Jack. Then I'd trade Q as soon as I could to the Rockets(looking for shooters and looking to get younger) for Clarence Weatherspoon(expiring contract) and a conditional first round pick.

I would have made a promise to Splitter so he could stay in the draft(you said I'm running the show at the start of the offseason) and drafted him with the 8th pick and let him stay in Europe for another year. With the 30th pick I would have selected Roko Leni-Ukic and maybe allowed him to stay in Europe for another year. With the 14th pick from the T wolves I would have picked up Johan Petro. After the draft I would have made Randolph Morris an offer he couldnt refuse(and no I wouldnt do something ridiculous like sign him for five years for 28 million dollars) and gave him to Mark Agguire. Maybe waive Houston so he can make a run at a ring or maybe keep him here and let him retire a Knick not sure what I would do if I was in that situation. Next year I would have four first round pick to work with. I would use them to draft two shooting guards, and a small forward. Most likely the small forward would be Veira de Souza(just his last name his full name is too long). As for the guards it depends on how the Knicks, Rockets and T wolves do in the season.

Then I'd just wait a few years and let the young players mature and grow together while the other players' contracts expire. If Larry Brown doesnt mind coming to a team that's rebuilding I'll take him. If he doesnt want to I'll stick with Herb and welcome Ewing back to New York. If all goes according to plan the team would look like this a few years from now:

PG-Jarett Jack, Roko Leni-Ukic
SG-Uros Tripkovic, Rodney Carney
SF-Veira De Souza, Trevor Ariza
PF-Michael Sweetney, Tiago Splitter
C-Randolph Morris, Johan Petro

Make the coach whoever it may be play a ten man rotation like Hubie Brown and prepare to be a perennial contender for a long time. That's what I would have done at the start of the offseason if I was the GM. I know it's not what Knicks fans would like to see but it would be the best way out of mediocrity and salary cap Hell. This team is just too messed up. The only way things will really start looking up is if a GM has the courage to start rebuilding.


Anyway I think Isiah Thomas should be fired.

 

[Mr. J]

All because the team is young and talented, doesn't mean it'll be any good. Just look at the Chicago Bulls before last season. Also I'm not too happy having all these guys from overseas. It seems like whenever we draft players frojm overseas, they never play for us. Frederick Weis and Milos Vujanic to name a few.

 

[Tribute to H2O]

I didnt just slap this group together without rhyme or reason or because their all high picks. I took into account every possible factor you could think of. This team will be successful and anybody who took the time to actually research these players would know that. Splitter and Ukic are both proven players that get minutes as does Tripkovic and Souza. Petro is the only one out of the bunch that doesnt consistently get quality minutes. The playing styles of the players all mesh well with each other so chemistry wont be a problem and neither will defense. Oh yeah I forgot to mention this team will probably be cheaper than the team we have now too.


Anyway I think Isiah Thomas should be fired