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Further said:
It's easy, I believe immigration is good for America as long as we make sure those immigrating are hard working and not criminals. It's a strength, not a weakness. It's you, it's me, it's why America is a beacon to begin with. I tear up when I think recall the stories of my family, my grandparents, I tear up when I think about a good friend who came over illegally when he was 6 years old and is now an accomplished author and professor. The way to more jobs isn't to keep stagnant, it's to bring in gumption, creativity, differing perspectives and elbow grease. Stagnation leads to decay, perhaps a job tomorrow but fewer jobs with each passing year. Growth brings innovation, a budding new class of workers, manpower and upward trend in the economy and a brighter prospect for future employment for everyone.
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Well said.
 
MarAzul said:
You are one race baiting slimy mother fucker Denny. I would certainly like to meet you.
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No, I am not race baiting.

Asians were EXCLUDED from immigration here by the first immigration laws. They were named "anti asian immigration law" for hell's sake.

Meanwhile, they let anyone come via Liberty Island and enter the country, even become citizens. Those who came that way came from Europe, and were whites. For Asians to make that trip meant sailing all the way around South America. It was pointless because the Asians would be turned away.

Yet it was the Chinese who came here before the immigration law that built San Francisco and the continental railway. They created massive wealth for this nation, and exclusion was their reward.

The immigration laws through 1965 were all racist and excluded non white people, be they Japanese, Philipino, Chinese, etc.

We never had an immigration problem, let alone one with mexicans. They built Texas and Arizona and Southern California before we took their land after declaring war on mexico.

If people are going to harp on the law, they need to appreciate its source. Anti Asian Exclusion Act. And its several successors.
 
Denny Crane said:
No, I am not race baiting.

Asians were EXCLUDED from immigration here by the first immigration laws. They were named "anti asian immigration law" for hell's sake.

Meanwhile, they let anyone come via Liberty Island and enter the country, even become citizens. Those who came that way came from Europe, and were whites. For Asians to make that trip meant sailing all the way around South America. It was pointless because the Asians would be turned away.

Yet it was the Chinese who came here before the immigration law that built San Francisco and the continental railway. They created massive wealth for this nation, and exclusion was their reward.

The immigration laws through 1965 were all racist and excluded non white people, be they Japanese, Philipino, Chinese, etc.

We never had an immigration problem, let alone one with mexicans. They built Texas and Arizona and Southern California before we took their land after declaring war on mexico.

If people are going to harp on the law, they need to appreciate its source. Anti Asian Exclusion Act. And its several successors.
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I didn't call you a poor historian. I said, well you know what I said. It stands.

The country does not need more immigrants of any flavor, as you well know, there are not jobs enough for all Americans that are here now. But instead of speaking the truth you fan the flame,
turning legitimate issues into race or racist. I watched Hillary doing the same thing just this morning. No, I didn't call you a liberal, you just use the same tactics, for your own agenda of course.


You are an odd fellow, logical on many issues, then work off feeling for as many other issues. Sort of a split character type. The only people I see doing that on this board are you and Sly. Did I miss anyone? No, I don't thinks so. You don't see me or Further doing this, we are very predictable, as are most others.
 
MarAzul said:
I didn't call you a poor historian. I said, well you know what I said. It stands.

The country does not need more immigrants of any flavor, as you well know, there are not jobs enough for all Americans that are here now. But instead of speaking the truth you fan the flame,
turning legitimate issues into race or racist. I watched Hillary doing the same thing just this morning. No, I didn't call you a liberal, you just use the same tactics, for your own agenda of course.


You are an odd fellow, logical on many issues, then work off feeling for as many other issues. Sort of a split character type. The only people I see doing that on this board are you and Sly. Did I miss anyone? No, I don't thinks so. You don't see me or Further doing this, we are very predictable, as are most others.
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I disagree with this ..my wife is now a citizen and hard working...I know a lot of young americans here who don't even try to get jobs..I can drive you around Eugene and show you a lot of lazy American born folks who refuse to work. I've offered work to guys with vet signs and when they asked how much I paid, I told them 10 bucks an hour to do some labor around my place...everytime, I was refused. They said they make more begging. Just because you a born here does not mean you're ambitious. There are jobs where I work and they can't staff the disabled care clients because the job is difficult. My immigrant wife has done this work for years...just last week 3 more young American workers dropped shifts again and were replaced with immigrants...legal ones. If I lost my job todayl, I'd get one tomorrow and I'm old...what I see at the county labor offices here are folks that have immigrated..I see a lot of native born americans just hanging out on the streets. There are jobs....but you have to shower, and wake up in the morning to get them
 
Don't give money to beggars with vet signs. They can get help from the VA if they truly are vets.
 
riverman said:
I told them 10 bucks
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Yes well, perhaps the man offering the job will need to increase the pay to entice the American off the assistance. But the barter between the laborer and the boss will work out, It always has,
unless we screw with it by importing cheap labor or artificially setting the minimum price such as minimum wage and assistance. Right now, the labor force is way more than the jobs available.
 
JFizzleRaider said:
Don't give money to beggars with vet signs. They can get help from the VA if they truly are vets.
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I'll always try to help a vet...I'm a vet...but that wasn't my point...a lot of them don't want to work, and not just vets...just a lot of lazy young folks who seem to retire at 21
 
MarAzul said:
I didn't call you a poor historian. I said, well you know what I said. It stands.

The country does not need more immigrants of any flavor, as you well know, there are not jobs enough for all Americans that are here now. But instead of speaking the truth you fan the flame,
turning legitimate issues into race or racist. I watched Hillary doing the same thing just this morning. No, I didn't call you a liberal, you just use the same tactics, for your own agenda of course.


You are an odd fellow, logical on many issues, then work off feeling for as many other issues. Sort of a split character type. The only people I see doing that on this board are you and Sly. Did I miss anyone? No, I don't thinks so. You don't see me or Further doing this, we are very predictable, as are most others.
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The issue of jobs is nonsense. If there were 100M jobs before the immigrants, there are 110M jobs after 10M immigrants.

There is always unemployment. Even when it seems everyone is fully employed, about 4% of the people are between jobs, having quit or fired and looking for the next situation.
 
MarAzul said:
Yes well, perhaps the man offering the job will need to increase the pay to entice the American off the assistance. But the barter between the laborer and the boss will work out, It always has,
unless we screw with it by importing cheap labor or artificially setting the minimum price such as minimum wage and assistance. Right now, the labor force is way more than the jobs available.
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I can get anybody a job who wants to work in a small city here in Oregon...where I work they have a hard time finding people who are willing to do the work..most of the coworkers I work with come from immigrant backgrounds and are hard working.....most local americans who do the job quit within a week or two....I don't believe for a second that our native borns are competitive in the labor force...I'm not talking about highly skilled work, but labor jobs. No company imported my coworkers or my wife...they worked hard to get here and keep a job. They deserve respect for that...not that there aren't exceptions but my experience is that we have some lazy assed American born young folks living less than ambitious lives. I can't feel sorry for them
 
riverman said:
I'll always try to help a vet...I'm a vet...but that wasn't my point...a lot of them don't want to work, and not just vets...just a lot of lazy young folks who seem to retire at 21
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Why should they have to work? A lot of the beggars use the money on drugs, alcohol, or going to dottys so they can play video poker. And they literally have to put in zero effort other than wearing shitty clothes. There's a group of them on 82nd that all live together, drink and hang out at dottys all the time.

I agree with you about people being lazy. I'll never understand it. I've worked hard to get the things I have and am proud of what I've done. Lots of people don't want to put in the elbow grease and sacrifice to get there though.

Put in the hard work at a young age, and life gets so much easier in your 30's and 40's, health permitting.
 
MarAzul said:
What is this? You are not a handicapped thinker, incapable of logic. Do you get your jollies stoking the discord? Perhaps, a pay day?
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I'm not the one who thinks more people means white people have fewer jobs. That's a big logic fault on your part.
 
Denny Crane said:
I'm not the one who thinks more people means white people have fewer jobs. That's a big logic fault on your part.
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Geez guy! It is black people that are in the worst shape for jobs.

"The BLS economist also provided us with unpublished data for 16 to 19 year old high school graduates who are no longer in school. The unemployment rate in the second quarter of 2015 stood at 17.2 percent for white people (page 7), 30 percent for black people (page 13), and 17.8 percent for Hispanic people (page 25)."

http://www.factcheck.org/2015/07/sanders-overstates-unemployment-rate/

Note:

See Denny race baiting some more (white people) above. What do you think is his motive?
 
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/08/26/Are-Immigrants-Really-Taking-American-Jobs

The persistent belief that foreign-born workers are stealing jobs from native-born Americans is the product of a well-documented fallacy that has been repeatedly debunked by economists, Megan reports.

“Blaming immigration for declining employment ultimately rests on the flawed belief that economies can only produce a fixed number of jobs and that for every job occupied by an immigrant, a native-born worker must be unemployed,” he writes.
 
Denny Crane said:
The persistent belief that foreign-born workers are stealing jobs from native-born Americans is the product of a well-documented fallacy that has been repeatedly debunked by economists, Megan reports.

“Blaming immigration for declining employment ultimately rests on the flawed belief that economies can only produce a fixed number of jobs and that for every job occupied by an immigrant, a native-born worker must be unemployed,” he writes.
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Stating these claims as fact hardly makes them true.

If there are 18 jobs available, and 10 American workers looking, along with 10 immigrants looking, all 10 of which get a job and only one American, then the employer would need to raise the
wage offer to fill the other 7 jobs. The government would not need to set the minimum wage, the market place does.

If there are 18 jobs available, and 10 American workers looking, along with 0 immigrants looking, and only one American takes the job, then the employer would need to raise the wage offer to fill 9 more positions. Perhaps immigration would need to me looked at to fill the other 8 jobs but only if we knew how many people the Country can support considering our current population trajectory. Continuous growth is not possible forever.
 
MarAzul said:
Stating these claims as fact hardly makes them true.

If there are 18 jobs available, and 10 American workers looking, along with 10 immigrants looking, all 10 of which get a job and only one American, then the employer would need to raise the
wage offer to fill the other 7 jobs. The government would not need to set the minimum wage, the market place does.

If there are 18 jobs available, and 10 American workers looking, along with 0 immigrants looking, and only one American takes the job, then the employer would need to raise the wage offer to fill 9 more positions. Perhaps immigration would need to me looked at to fill the other 8 jobs but only if we knew how many people the Country can support considering our current population trajectory. Continuous growth is not possible forever.
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Logic flaw on your part.

If immigrants buy groceries, it creates demand for food made by Americans, grocery store workers, etc. Creates jobs, not takes them. Growth is created by DEMAND, and more people means more DEMAND, whether the people are immigrants or native. Makes no difference.

If there are 18 jobs and only 10 native workers looking, there will still be 18 jobs and 10 looking.

The study you refute is factual. Your logic and refuting of it is just wrong.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/m...-myth-of-the-job-stealing-immigrant.html?_r=0

The chief logical mistake we make is something called the Lump of Labor Fallacy: the erroneous notion that there is only so much work to be done and that no one can get a job without taking one from someone else. It’s an understandable assumption. After all, with other types of market transactions, when the supply goes up, the price falls. If there were suddenly a whole lot more oranges, we’d expect the price of oranges to fall or the number of oranges that went uneaten to surge.

But immigrants aren’t oranges. It might seem intuitive that when there is an increase in the supply of workers, the ones who were here already will make less money or lose their jobs. Immigrants don’t just increase the supply of labor, though; they simultaneously increase demand for it, using the wages they earn to rent apartments, eat food, get haircuts, buy cellphones. That means there are more jobs building apartments, selling food, giving haircuts and dispatching the trucks that move those phones. Immigrants increase the size of the overall population, which means they increase the size of the economy. Logically, if immigrants were “stealing” jobs, so would every young person leaving school and entering the job market; countries should become poorer as they get larger. In reality, of course, the opposite happens.
 
Denny Crane said:
more people means more DEMAND, whether the people are immigrants or native. Makes no difference.
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Denny Crane said:
Immigrants don’t just increase the supply of labor, though; they simultaneously increase demand
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Denny Crane said:
if immigrants were “stealing” jobs
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All of these assertions or statements are incorrect.

Immigrant do not increase demand. More employed workers increase demand. It makes no difference whether they are foreign or domestic in origin. unemployed do not increase demand beyond whatever support the government hands them.

Immigrants do not steal jobs, they usually take jobs at a lower scale of pay, lower than the native population is willing to accept. It has approximately the same effect as importing slaves instead of hiring workers, although it is probably cheaper than maintaining a slave in good condition.

I take it you see no way to put millions black people unemployed to work in any case, so bring in those that will work for the lowest possible wage the government will make legal. They are in way worse shape than any other group, 23.3 percent unemployed in the worse off group.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t02.htm

Too bad these people, we hear have suffered so much, now a being undercut by an uncontrolled influx of workers willing to labor for less than native population.

That is my view, a racist view, say you.
 
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But you say the immigrants are taking white peoples' jobs. So which is it?

:lol:

At any pay, they have to eat. Creates demand, more jobs.
 
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Putting more black people to work is complicated. The education system is failing them, white politicians move government money out of their neighborhoods, and white people move away, taking the bulk of the wealth with them.

Those are just starting points, but there's a lot more to do.

It doesn't help that government has outlawed many black enterprises.
 
Denny Crane said:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/m...-myth-of-the-job-stealing-immigrant.html?_r=0

The chief logical mistake we make is something called the Lump of Labor Fallacy: the erroneous notion that there is only so much work to be done and that no one can get a job without taking one from someone else. It’s an understandable assumption. After all, with other types of market transactions, when the supply goes up, the price falls. If there were suddenly a whole lot more oranges, we’d expect the price of oranges to fall or the number of oranges that went uneaten to surge.

But immigrants aren’t oranges. It might seem intuitive that when there is an increase in the supply of workers, the ones who were here already will make less money or lose their jobs. Immigrants don’t just increase the supply of labor, though; they simultaneously increase demand for it, using the wages they earn to rent apartments, eat food, get haircuts, buy cellphones. That means there are more jobs building apartments, selling food, giving haircuts and dispatching the trucks that move those phones. Immigrants increase the size of the overall population, which means they increase the size of the economy. Logically, if immigrants were “stealing” jobs, so would every young person leaving school and entering the job market; countries should become poorer as they get larger. In reality, of course, the opposite happens.
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Read it and weep.

You keep repeating the Lump of Labor Fallacy.

Each time you do, it's still a fallacy. Bad logic.

You cannot repeat it enough times to make it not a fallacy.
 
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