Imagine you are George Zimmerman

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RR7 said:
the known FACTS can point to manslaughter, if you take out Zimmerman's statements as facts. I don't understand why his statements,as the one who pulled the trigger, would be considered facts in the case.
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There is nothing contradictory. He had injuries consistent with his story.
 
The police should arrest anyone who shoots someone else under any circumstances and let the courts sort out the guilt/innocence issue.

The facts DO point to manslaughter, since there's a dead body.

I'm not saying the guy is guilty, but I am saying it's not up to PapaG or me or EL PRESIDENTE or the cops to decide he's guilty or innocent.
 
RR7 said:
the known FACTS can point to manslaughter, if you take out Zimmerman's statements as facts. I don't understand why his statements,as the one who pulled the trigger, would be considered facts in the case.
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There is at least one witness who corroborates Zimmerman's story. Or do we just disregard witness statements as well?
 
EL PRESIDENTE said:
There is nothing contradictory. He had injuries consistent with his story.
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Plus at least one eyewitness told a story the corroborates what Zimmerman told the cops. Of course, we could just disregard all the known evidence, and it would all be good, it appears. Unless the eyewitness, who apparently didn't even know Zimmerman, is in on this racist conspiracy.
 
Denny Crane said:
The police should arrest anyone who shoots someone else under any circumstances and let the courts sort out the guilt/innocence issue.

The facts DO point to manslaughter, since there's a dead body.

I'm not saying the guy is guilty, but I am saying it's not up to PapaG or me or EL PRESIDENTE or the cops to decide he's guilty or innocent.
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Frankly, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Just stop.
 
PapaG said:
There is at least one witness who corroborates Zimmerman's story. Or do we just disregard witness statements as well?
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the witness seems to enter the picture after scuffle has already started, however. I am not trying to disregard his statement. But could zimmerman have initiated the scuffle, and then shot after Trayvon was getting the better of him? Does that count as self defense?
 
PapaG said:
Frankly, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Just stop.
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No, it's you who doesn't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Ignore the fact there's a dead body, shot with Zimmerman's gun. Proclaim Zimmerman's innocence because you're the judge.

Fool.
 
Denny Crane said:
No, it's you who doesn't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Ignore the fact there's a dead body, shot with Zimmerman's gun. Proclaim Zimmerman's innocence because you're the judge.
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A dead body doesn't not automatically indicate that manslaughter can be charged. I'm not proclaiming anybody's innocence; I'm going by the actual known facts, and the actual police PDF that was released. The investigation is still in process; perhaps more information will be found that supports a manslaughter charge. You still seem to think that the DA should charge first, and gather evidence to support that charge second. That's not how it works in the USA. It's basic stuff.

Fool.
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:MARIS61:

What are you, 12?
 
Uh oh Denny. Told you that you didn't know what the fuck you were talking about. :MARIS61:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2017852036_trayvonfacts28.html

Statement: Police should have simply arrested Zimmerman and let a judge sort it out.

Zimmerman has not been arrested because he told police he acted in self-defense, and then-Chief Lee said police did not have probable cause. Florida Statute 776.032 expressly prohibits police from arresting someone who had a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm. Police may investigate, the statute says, "but the agency may not arrest the person" without probable cause.
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Exactly what El Prez and I have been posting. You go ahead and violate FL law, though! That way Zimmerman gets off on a technicality, which would be a shame if more info comes out showing it really was manslaughter, or even murder.
 
PapaG said:
With a witness supporting your side, apparently so. It's what investigations are for, derrr. You and your Gestapo would probably like to just detain people, charge them, and then try to fit facts around that charge, but that's not how it works.
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I would definitely arrest him and make him appeal to a court (like in that findlaw case) to be granted immunity.

You and I arguing the merits of the case is pointless. There are claims on both sides. The arbiter of this kind of thing is a court.

Otherwise people will get away with murder.
 
Denny Crane said:
I would definitely arrest him and make him appeal to a court (like in that findlaw case) to be granted immunity.
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Mike Nifong, is that you?

You and I arguing the merits of the case is pointless. There are claims on both sides. The arbiter of this kind of thing is a court.
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Arguing the merits is pointless for you, because you've been wrong at every stage of this debate.

Otherwise people will get away with murder.
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Now you're just being dramatic.
 
No, you've been wrong all along.

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/03/28/sanford-police-originally-wanted-to-charge-zimmerman/

SANFORD (CBSMiami) – New information now contradicts Sanford police chief’s initial claims that there wasn’t enough probable cause to arrest George Zimmerman in the murder of 17-year old Trayvon Martin.

Angela Corey, a special prosecutor assigned to case by Gov. Rick Scott, told CBS4 news partner The Miami Herald that early in the investigation police requested an arrest warrant from the Seminole County State Attorney’s Office.

An incident report on the shooting classified it as “homicide/negligent manslaughter.”

Corey said police did file a capias (a request that charges be filed) with the State Attorney’s Office.
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The police did investigate and immediately found reason to seek an arrest warrant.
 
PapaG said:
Yeah, I already posted that information. Thanks for posting it again!
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Did you read it and comprehend it? It rejects what you've been trying to argue.
 
Denny Crane said:
The evidence is a dead teen, shot with Zimmerman's gun.
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Bingo. If Zimmerman stays in the car as the police told him to do, none of this happens.

The question to be resloved is whether this was bad judgement - or if Zimmerman intended to provoke a violent confrontation. If it's the former, he has to live with what he did. If it's the latter, he should be charged with a crime.

It's sad that some people are rushing to convict him without all the facts. It is even sadder that some people are defending him based on Martin's race and taste in clothing. I wore a sweatshirt to Safeway earlier....I guess some people think I deserve to die because of it. Has this country gone insane?
 
oldmangrouch said:
Bingo. If Zimmerman stays in the car as the police told him to do, none of this happens.

The question to be resloved is whether this was bad judgement - or if Zimmerman intended to provoke a violent confrontation. If it's the former, he has to live with what he did. If it's the latter, he should be charged with a crime.

It's sad that some people are rushing to convict him without all the facts. It is even sadder that some people are defending him based on Martin's race and taste in clothing. I wore a sweatshirt to Safeway earlier....I guess some people think I deserve to die because of it. Has this country gone insane?
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If Treyvon doesn't attack Zimmerman, none of this happens either. And this is more relevant than him staying in the car since its the incident that directly resulted in the death.

Again, staying in the car is necessary but not sufficient for the death of treyvon martin to occur. However, Treyvon attacking Zimmerman is both necessary and sufficient for Martin to be shot.
 
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EL PRESIDENTE said:
If Treyvon doesn't attack Zimmerman, none of this happens either. And this is more relevant than him staying in the car.
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And can anyone outside of the guy claiming self defense say this is what happened?
 
staying in the car is sufficient for the death to NOT occur.
 
RR7 said:
And can anyone outside of the guy claiming self defense say this is what happened?
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Any proof beyond a reasonable doubt this did not occur? That is the litmus test, after all.
 
EL PRESIDENTE said:
If Treyvon doesn't attack Zimmerman, none of this happens either. And this is more relevant than him staying in the car since its the incident that directly resulted in the death.

Again, staying in the car is necessary but not sufficient for the death of treyvon martin to occur. However, Treyvon attacking Zimmerman is both necessary and sufficient for Martin to be shot.
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What if the reason Martin attacked Zimmerman was because he was following him?
 
EL PRESIDENTE said:
How can you prove that? And following someone is not a crime.
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Following him could easily be viewed as threatening, depending on how he was being followed. Again, we don't know. And if Trayvon felt there was reasonable belief of threat, then technically, he had every right to beat Zimmerman, under the same law Zimmerman shot him under.
 
EL PRESIDENTE said:
How can you prove that? And following someone is not a crime.
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And how can you prove that Zimmerman wasn't looking for a fight? You are perfectly happy to jump to conclusions about Martin's actions and motivations.....but you demand everbody give Zimmerman the benefit of every doubt.

Are you actually blind to your own double standard - or do you just not care?
 
RR7 said:
Following him could easily be viewed as threatening, depending on how he was being followed. Again, we don't know. And if Trayvon felt there was reasonable belief of threat, then technically, he had every right to beat Zimmerman, under the same law Zimmerman shot him under.
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Again, you can't really prove any of this. And I don't believe a perceived threat would be covered under stand your ground or self defense.
 
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oldmangrouch said:
And how can you prove that Zimmerman wasn't looking for a fight? You are perfectly happy to jump to conclusions about Martin's actions and motivations.....but you demand everbody give Zimmerman the benefit of every doubt.

Are you actually blind to your own double standard - or do you just not care?
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I'm not jumping to conclusions about Martin's actions and motivations, I'm going off the available information. Sure, Zimmerman did make a statement but it is corroborated by his injuries and witness testimony as well. Even if they did not, the standard for convicting someone of a crime is to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, and it is quite far from this being achievable.
 
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