Politics Iowa Democratic caucus results are plunged into crisis as party says it has found 'INCONSISTENCIES'

[EL PRESIDENTE]

 

[barfo]

Seems a bit off-topic for this thread, or am I missing a connection?

barfo

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Seems a bit off-topic for this thread, or am I missing a connection?

barfo

second tweet. For some reason it didn't autopost only the tweet re: Russian interference in the Iowa Caucaus.

 

[barfo]

second tweet. For some reason it didn't autopost only the tweet re: Russian interference in the Iowa Caucaus.

Ah. Not buying that either, myself. Incompetence is a simpler and entirely sufficient explanation.

barfo

 

[Shaboid]

Ah. Not buying that either, myself. Incompetence is a simpler and entirely sufficient explanation.

barfo

But we should have the FBI look into it. But the FBI is the Deep State. But the Deep State sabotages Trump. But Trump is controlled by Russia.

 

[GhostOfPGA]

 

[VanillaGorilla]

 

[VanillaGorilla]

 

[VanillaGorilla]

They're being corrected, but the fact that they are releasing many fucked up results is worrying. Hopefully every "mistake" gets caught by folks on twitter?

 

[jonnyboy]

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

 

[Hoopguru]

Just a close race between the two and they each get near equal amount of delegates.
Trumpers, Russians or DNC didn’t rig or cause this event.
Now if Bernie wins SC I’m suspicious as hell!

 

[BrianFromWA]

Don't really have a dog in this fight, but here's an op-ed I read today that may strike a chord with some. I'm legit interested in the (D) takes on this...

Democratic donors, lobbyists, think tanks, and elected officials are convinced their party is doomed this November if an avowed socialist heads the ticket. They’re right, but they don’t have an easy answer.
The insiders’ dilemma is simple to state but tricky to solve. They think Bernie’s nomination would be an electoral disaster, but they must prevent it without alienating his supporters. They need them to win in November.

As the party’s standard bearer, Bernie would be George McGovern reincarnated. He would not only cost Democrats the White House, he would cost them close races for House and Senate seats. Every Republican would force his Democratic opponent to say if she supported this avowed socialist and his costly, transformational policies. That’s why party pros want to stop Bernie before it’s too late. So does every Democratic candidate outside Berkeley and Ann Arbor.

Their challenge is to do it without estranging Bernie’s ardent followers. The harder insiders work to block Bernie, the less chance they have of keeping Bernie’s people in the General Election. Those voters may not cross over to Trump (although about one in 11 did in 2016), but they could stay home.

Some friends I still have in WA state politics (heavily D) were livid in '16 with what they considered "pouting" and the scorched-earth mess Bernie supporters (though not Bernie himself, though some said he was just paid off somehow to shut up--I have no idea) had in the run-up to the general election. Is it a widespread notion among long-time (D) voters that the DNC/party wants Bernie out? As I said before, I don't know how a non-centrist comes close to Trump, but

 

[Minstrel]

As I said before, I don't know how a non-centrist comes close to Trump, but

It's pretty easy how. Very very few actual voters (as opposed to all adults) as a percentage are centrists. The vast, vast majority of voters are partisans. Even if most Democrats aren't Democratic Socialists, very little to nothing of what Sanders is proposing is so objectionable to them that tribalism will be overcome and they'll either not vote or vote for the other party. Trump showed that even Republicans who found Trump deeply objectionable still came in from the cold once he was the nominee--Trump may not be "their guy" but he's far better than a Democrat to them. Same will be true of non-Sanders Democrats versus a Republican, especially Trump.

Elections aren't really won, these days, by triangulating to pick up the middle. It's by energizing your base and getting more of your base to actually vote than the other team's (I mean, party's). A charismatic candidate and/or an opponent that your base viscerally hates are important.

 

[barfo]

Don't really have a dog in this fight, but here's an op-ed I read today that may strike a chord with some. I'm legit interested in the (D) takes on this...


Some friends I still have in WA state politics (heavily D) were livid in '16 with what they considered "pouting" and the scorched-earth mess Bernie supporters (though not Bernie himself, though some said he was just paid off somehow to shut up--I have no idea) had in the run-up to the general election. Is it a widespread notion among long-time (D) voters that the DNC/party wants Bernie out? As I said before, I don't know how a non-centrist comes close to Trump, but

Replace Bernie with Trump, 2020 with 2016, D with R, etc. in your quote from the op-ed, and it applies equally. Common wisdom was that Trump was going to be a disaster on election day for the Republicans. But he won.

Common wisdom could be wrong in the same way about Bernie. Or it could be completely correct. No way to really be sure unless/until we run the experiment.

barfo

 

[donkiez]

Any democrat is several orders of magnitude better than Trump, the disagreement lies in how many orders of magnitude. This year there will be no amount of bad blood created in the primaries that cant be overcome when the other option is Trump.

If Bernie wins he will have months to talk and contrast himself vs Trump instead of enduring DNC infighting. Most people will realize that he isn't a boogy man and that health care and education are actually good ideas to invest into our countries future. The other democrats already agree with him that those are core issues they just disagree on how to go about it. Compare that to Trumps policies and its a no brainer. As for the so called "undecideds" they are like unicorns at this point. Most people I know who consider themselves independents are the people who will consider all options long and hard and then always vote republican anyway. I agree with Minstrel that the battle will be won by energizing a base and getting people out to vote, Bernie does that well and has the best grassroots campaign currently going so I like his chances.

 

[Leroylib]

The American political system is a "charming" blend of normal process and silly ancient customs.

We should just make the Presidential general election a nationwide show of hands.

Why would you presume to suggest how another state conduct their elections?
Who is the we when you criticizes another states system?

 

[Hoopguru]

Replace Bernie with Trump, 2020 with 2016, D with R, etc. in your quote from the op-ed, and it applies equally. Common wisdom was that Trump was going to be a disaster on election day for the Republicans. But he won.

Common wisdom could be wrong in the same way about Bernie. Or it could be completely correct. No way to really be sure unless/until we run the experiment.

barfo

The exception Barfo Bernie is running on a demo socialist platform and I just dont see how he can win over all the blue collar manufacturing base in the midwest and the heavy union presence. They will support a more centrist traditional democrat platform but not one so radically left. James Carvel was right on.

 

[jonnyboy]

This shit is too fucking funny. Just a blatant rigging of a presidential election. Again.

Get ready for 4 more years of Trump everybody, courtesy of the DNC. Again.

 

[Minstrel]

The exception Barfo Bernie is running on a demo socialist platform and I just dont see how he can win over all the blue collar manufacturing base in the midwest and the heavy union presence. They will support a more centrist traditional democrat platform

What is a "traditional" Democratic platform? Democrats have been pushing for a form of universal health care since at least FDR's day. Even the great triangulator and centrist Bill Clinton tried (and failed) to get health care reform. Many of the things Bernie Sanders is advocating are things that have been Democratic priorities for decades. Carville is a Clinton Democrat and Clinton captured a moment when Democrats were demoralized by three consecutive terms of Republican Presidents--two by Ronald Reagan and one by George HW Bush. Clinton and his advisors believed that the only way to win was to move to the center and win over the independents. The Republicans have proven pretty clearly that you don't need to move to the center to win--they've been tacking more and more to the right over the years. You don't win by trying to be all things to all people, you win by getting more of your voters to the polls. Republicans have had a big edge in that, in general, because older people are more reliable voters than younger people and Republicans are much more popular among older demographics, while Democrats are much more popular among younger demographics.

"Socialism" polls badly, but the actual things that Sanders wants poll well. A battle between Trump and Sanders would be a battle of messaging. Sanders actually does well among "blue collar" voters, because the things he advocates for are things that help blue collar workers a lot.

I'm not even some big Sanders believer. I'm currently not sure which Democratic candidate I want to win the nomination (other than not-Bloomberg). I just don't buy the narrative that Sanders is a lost cause in a general election because of a socialist scare. Or that Sanders represents an agenda so dangerous and radical that the Democratic party is scared of him. The Democratic party establishment (like all establishments) prefer long-time party warriors who have seniority and a proven record of loyalty to the establishment. I don't think they hate him, they just prefer people like Joe Biden, Kamala Harris or Corey Booker. Just as they preferred Hillary Clinton over Barack Obama until it was clear that Obama was a superstar politician.

 

[Leroylib]

Republicans are much more popular among older demographics, while Democrats are much more popular among younger demographics.

This distinction has always been with us. Whys do young democrats see it has a matter of education rather than real experience?

 

[Leroylib]

This shit is too fucking funny. Just a blatant rigging of a presidential election. Again.

Get ready for 4 more years of Trump everybody, courtesy of the DNC. Again.

I suspect, Americans will go for more Trump, regardless of what the DNC does or doesn't do.

 

[donkiez]

This distinction has always been with us. Whys do young democrats see it has a matter of education rather than real experience?

 

[MARIS61]

MSNBC's Maddow presses DNC chair Tom Perez over low Dem turnout in Iowa: 'They didn't turn out in droves!'
By Joseph A. Wulfsohn | Fox News

Lower-than-expected turnout in Iowa raises questions of voter enthusiasm for Democratic presidential field

MSNBC host Rachel Maddow grilled Democratic National Committee (DNC) Chairman Tom Perez over the low turnout at Monday's Iowa caucuses, pointing out how Democrats "didn't turn out in droves" like in previous election cycles.

Whiles technical errors with the voting system have plagued the Democrat Party over the past several days, some on the left are sounding the alarms after early results from the Iowa caucuses draw a parallel to the 2016 turnout, which was roughly 170,000 voters.

In 2008, there were nearly 240,000 voters.

During a sit-down on Thursday night, Maddow asked about the low turnout and whether it's a sign about the eventual general election outcome in November.

"Let me tell you the concern that I've heard voiced about what happened in Iowa this week that is not about the process failures, but that is about the prospect of beating Donald Trump in November and it's that the turnout was flat," Maddow said. "In 2008, turnout in the Iowa caucuses was astronomical, broke all the records and by a lot. 2016, it came back down to earth. It appears that the turnout in Iowa this year was back down in that back-down-to-earth level."

She continued, "When I look at the numbers broadly, big Democratic numbers in Iowa, in the Iowa caucuses tend to translate into Democrat Party wins in the general election. Are Democrats not enthusiastic enough about voting and is that what those turnout numbers mean?"

Perez denied that there was a lack of enthusiasm, pointing to the turnout in the 2018 midterm elections as well as the special elections in 2017 and 2019 and telling the MSNBC host that they "came out in droves" on the issue of health care.

"But they didn't come out in droves in Iowa," Maddow pushed back, "and this was the first chance in the presidential race for Democrats to show their stuff and they didn't turn out."

"Well, we'll see in New Hampshire and elsewhere," Perez responded. "I don't want to extrapolate much from one race. You know, with caucuses, even though there were satellite caucuses and other opportunities, you know, the reality is it is harder for people to vote if you have a shift job, if you are there."

He added, "Make no mistake about it. Barack Obama is a historic figure. That is an incredibly high bar. And when we benchmark everything against Barack Obama, that is an undeniably high bar."

The DNC chair later insisted that "the energy is everywhere" and he sees it on the campaign trail.

 

[Minstrel]

This distinction has always been with us. Whys do young democrats see it has a matter of education rather than real experience?

It's neither. Why would education or experience have anything to do with whether you're more or less likely to vote?

Older people, especially retired people, have more to protect by voting, like social security, Medicare, etc. Thus, they have more investment in voting.

There are other factors too, like older people generally have advanced more in their careers and therefore have more flexibility to leave work to vote, and retirees don't have a job to need to leave.

 

[Lanny]

The exception Barfo Bernie is running on a demo socialist platform and I just dont see how he can win over all the blue collar manufacturing base in the midwest and the heavy union presence. They will support a more centrist traditional democrat platform but not one so radically left. James Carvel was right on.

I would feel a lot better about Bernie if he would at least declare himself a Democrat.

 

[jonnyboy]

 

[jonnyboy]

While 15 votes changes nothing, it’s yet more proof of inaccurate reporting.

 

[jonnyboy]

Couple more examples from other precinct captains:

 

[jonnyboy]

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