Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?/Genius KP rid of ZBo (merged)

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

Last time I checked Andre Miller is playing a pretty big role on this team.

"KP had no plan" - Lol, OK.

The Knicks got screwed? They signed Amare and would have signed Melo if he weren't traded to them. I think it worked out well for them.

You want to know another team who planned 2 years in advance? The Miami Heat. Hmm, I think they have some pretty good players.

There are plenty of reasons why he dumped ZBo and they are all logical. Good plan that work.

Yeah...Dre is good. is he the PGOF we were promised? I don't know about that. Is he worth the huge expiring deals of ZBO + RLEC and holding onto Steve Francis' contract for 2 years? certainly not.

The heat dumped all their players at that last minute to free up cap space. Gave them away. If "Dre was the plan" why did we offer to Hedo first? Dre was the backup plan. KP had no plan. No target.

The plan did not work. We would have still made the playoffs with ZBO on this team. If we had advanced FURTHER than the first round, then maybe you would have a point. Had we obtained a CP3 or Deron Williams or something along that line of thinking.... then maybe.

 

[maxiep]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

Andre Miller on the Blazers > Zach Randolph on the Blazers

I was a supporter of Zach, but the shit I heard after he was gone blew my mind. I only wish we could have moved Miles for Malik Rose in that deal. The bottom line is that we dumped him, so did the Knicks and so did the Clippers. I'm glad he resurrected his career in Memphis. He always put up numbers, but now he's doing it on a winning team. Good for him.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

Andre Miller on the Blazers > Zach Randolph on the Blazers

Could we have signed Miller using only the cap space from RLEC?

Even then, I think I'd rather have the ZBOEC at last trade deadline.

 

[maxiep]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

Could we have signed Miller using only the cap space from RLEC?

Even then, I think I'd rather have the ZBOEC at last trade deadline.

No. Zach made more than Raef.

 

[RoyToy]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

Yeah...Dre is good. is he the PGOF we were promised? I don't know about that. Is he worth the huge expiring deals of ZBO + RLEC and holding onto Steve Francis' contract for 2 years? certainly not.

You forger the Darius Miles fiasco took a lot of the money away. They had enough to spend and they spent it on a good player. Good move.

The heat dumped all their players at that last minute to free up cap space. Gave them away. If "Dre was the plan" why did we offer to Hedo first? Dre was the backup plan. KP had no plan. No target.

The Heat traded for players with expiring contracts and traded players who didn't. They were planning for the 2010 FA and it worked great for them.

KP had no plan? Like I said, lol. He offered players, one said no, the other player had his contract matched. Nothing KP can do about that, and in the end he still got a good player out of it. Overall the plan worked.

The plan did not work. We would have still made the playoffs with ZBO on this team. If we had advanced FURTHER than the first round, then maybe you would have a point. Had we obtained a CP3 or Deron Williams or something along that line of thinking.... then maybe.

Sure the plan worked. The Blazers upgraded their team by getting Andre Miller. How is that the plan not working? I think you're confused. As far as ZBo, he would have taken away from Roy and Aldridge while being drastically overpaid. KP made the right move in going real young and letting the team gel together and they've been a playoff team for it. They certainly have never missed ZBo.

Obtain CP3 or Deron? Well, that would take a trade so it's not like the Blazers could sign them. Utah had no reason to give up Deron until this year and CP3 the same thing. Sounds like you were the irrational one, not KP, and then took it out on him when your dreams didn't come true. That's on you.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

They (HEAT) were planning for one other max FA, not two. That happened because of some of the opportunities that opened up that summer.

I think KP just took the first offer he got. It was not a good trade. He wanted to dump ZBO, plan be damned. Well, the plan was that of imaginary cap space. He bought Tom Penn's snake oil salesman capspace BS hook, line and sinker. How can you say he even had a plan when it seemed getting Dre was more a move of desperation to do something more than anything. He was not the target. KP targeted an aging small forward who, by a sheer stroke of luck, is not a blazer right now.

Again, there was no plan. If you call falling ass backwards into Andre Miller a plan, so be it.

As for CP3 and Deron...."until this year"...yeah, that's why having a big $20 million expiring and young players to get the deal done might have worked. The market presented itself and was probably doable to be honest had we kept ZBO. But hell, holding onto Steve Francis for two years doing jack shit then falling ass backwards into Andre Miller...much better.

 

[THE HCP]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

You give me 20+/12+........ I'd put up with a few federal cases!

 

[PapaG]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

ahhh yes, the mysterious drug investigation and/or dog fighting ring from 4 years ago that no one really is following up on nor is going to rear its ugly head.

Those are two separate issues. The storage unit/drug stuff is from 2010. The dogfighting is from his days in Portland, as was him paying off the hookers that he beat up. What a stand up guy! Sure miss him...

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

ahhh yes. let me know when that ever comes up. Like I said, its a moot point since his contract would be off the books this summer anyway.

 

[PapaG]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

ahhh yes. let me know when that ever comes up. Like I said, its a moot point since his contract would be off the books this summer anyway.

When what ever comes up? Zach's legal troubles are out there, and at the very least, last summer's connections show that the dummy hasn't learned a thing about who he should or should not associate with.

You've had a chubby for Zach since he was traded, you've consistently over the years had to change your stance on "RLEC" and "imaginary cap space" as the ramifications of those are explained to you, and now it seems like you're back to square one, living in some fantasy world where Zach would be a $20 million expiring contract, yet the Blazers would be a better team. I get it.

 

[THE HCP]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

Zach has 12 dunks this year, which while a surprise to me, isn't exactly showing that he is explosive. For comaprision, LMA has 140.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/dunk-o-meter/yearly?&_1:col_1=2&start_row=251

Which make his #'s even MORE impressive!

 

[PapaG]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

Which make his #'s even MORE impressive!

You just miss hanging out with Zach and the Hoop Family on road trips at various strip clubs.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

When what ever comes up? Zach's legal troubles are out there, and at the very least, last summer's connections show that the dummy hasn't learned a thing about who he should or should not associate with.

You've had a chubby for Zach since he was traded, you've consistently over the years had to change your stance on "RLEC" and "imaginary cap space" as the ramifications of those are explained to you, and now it seems like you're back to square one, living in some fantasy world where Zach would be a $20 million expiring contract, yet the Blazers would be a better team. I get it.

Zach is a $20m expiring contract. He hasn't been in serious trouble since he was traded. He was an all-star in a non-contract year and is leading a bad team into the playoffs. The cap space was oversold to the fanbase and there was no plan. The trade was rushed and we got shit in return. Now at the end of his horrendous contract, where we are at, its a big money savings and could have POSSIBLY been used at the trade deadline to obtain Deron Williams or CP3.

If anything, I've been extremely consistent here. There has been zero movement in my core thoughts here and history has only proved me right. Trading ZBO was not a smart basketball move, it was a move to satisfy the morally correct blazer fans who hate the "gangsta" culture.

 

[THE HCP]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

Nah, just sayin'. ZBO's 20/10 is more impressive then LA's. When you compare athleticism at least. By the way, ZBO is actually areally nice cool guy..... just makes bad decisions and is easily swayed by his posse' members.

 

[RoyToy]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

They (HEAT) were planning for one other max FA, not two. That happened because of some of the opportunities that opened up that summer.

OK? They still planned for the 2010 FA 2 years out and it worked. That's my whole point and it really can't be argued.

I think KP just took the first offer he got. It was not a good trade. He wanted to dump ZBO, plan be damned. Well, the plan was that of imaginary cap space. He bought Tom Penn's snake oil salesman capspace BS hook, line and sinker. How can you say he even had a plan when it seemed getting Dre was more a move of desperation to do something more than anything. He was not the target. KP targeted an aging small forward who, by a sheer stroke of luck, is not a blazer right now.

Again, there was no plan. If you call falling ass backwards into Andre Miller a plan, so be it.

The plan was cap space and letting Roy and Aldridge take over the team. Roy and Aldridge grew as players(with Roy being the leader) and the cap space turned into Andre Miller. Like I said, overall the plan worked. The team got better and rid itself of a player that couldn't stay in one place for the next 2 years. Blazers look like winners.

As for CP3 and Deron...."until this year"...yeah, that's why having a big $20 million expiring and young players to get the deal done might have worked. The market presented itself and was probably doable to be honest had we kept ZBO. But hell, holding onto Steve Francis for two years doing jack shit then falling ass backwards into Andre Miller...much better.

ZBO wouldn't get you Deron or CP3, lol. The Jazz got real players for Deron, not expiring contracts.

Oh btw, the Blazers cashed in on Przybilla and got Gerald Wallace. ZBOEC isn't needed at all which means your argument to keep his EC is pretty weak as the Blazers still got an impact player with other expiring contracts. I think you still don't realize the market for Zach Randolph has never been good. You're being the Blazer homer and valuing him too much, when really basically the only way teams will take him is if they give up nothing. Not very valuable, is it?

Face it, the Blazers made the necessary move and it hasn't hurt them one bit. They got the money from the expiring contract earlier and use it appropriately. The plan succeeded.

Also, imagine Randolph on the 2008-2009 Blazer team when both Oden and Przybilla were healthy. He has no role on that team. He'd be a backup making way too much money and that's why he was traded long before that became reality.

Above all, Randolph isn't a Nate McMillan type player. He likes players that are versatile and Randolph definitely is not that. He just wasn't a good fit so the Blazers got the best value any team would give up for him and shipped him out and they haven't regretted that decision since.

 

[RoyToy]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

Zach is a $20m expiring contract. He hasn't been in serious trouble since he was traded. He was an all-star in a non-contract year and is leading a bad team into the playoffs. The cap space was oversold to the fanbase and there was no plan. The trade was rushed and we got shit in return. Now at the end of his horrendous contract, where we are at, its a big money savings and could have POSSIBLY been used at the trade deadline to obtain Deron Williams or CP3.

If anything, I've been extremely consistent here. There has been zero movement in my core thoughts here and history has only proved me right. Trading ZBO was not a smart basketball move, it was a move to satisfy the morally correct blazer fans who hate the "gangsta" culture.

Saying something over and over doesn't make it true. There's never been a good market for Randolph so saying the Blazers basically got hosed is false. I know you hate that I bring this up because it kills your argument, but you'll just have to deal with it.

And again, ZBO would never, ever = CP3 or Deron. There you go again being irrational because your dreams didn't come true so you take it out on someone else.

Trading ZBO was not a smart basketball move

There are plenty of logical reasons why the trade makes sense when it comes to just the basketball side of it. Keep ignoring them, though.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

OK? They still planned for the 2010 FA 2 years out and it worked. That's my whole point and it really can't be argued.

How did the Heat plan for 2010 FA 2 years out specifically? Trading Shawn Marion for Jermaine O'Neal?

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

The plan was cap space and letting Roy and Aldridge take over the team. Roy and Aldridge grew as players(with Roy being the leader) and the cap space turned into Andre Miller. Like I said, overall the plan worked. The team got better and rid itself of a player that couldn't stay in one place for the next 2 years. Blazers look like winners.

The plan was actually for Oden to take over the team. How has the plan worked? Roy would have been Roy and Aldridge would have been aldridge. Zach being on the team will make them worse players? I think Aldridge and ZBO would have played well next to each other and eventually the starting lineup would be determined by simply who contributed more...much like how Crash and Batum is working out. The blazers are FAR from winners..they got nothing back. They paid Steve Francis $24million dollars to stay home for 2 years.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

ZBO wouldn't get you Deron or CP3, lol. The Jazz got real players for Deron, not expiring contracts.

Oh btw, the Blazers cashed in on Przybilla and got Gerald Wallace. ZBOEC isn't needed at all which means your argument to keep his EC is pretty weak as the Blazers still got an impact player with other expiring contracts. I think you still don't realize the market for Zach Randolph has never been good. You're being the Blazer homer and valuing him too much, when really basically the only way teams will take him is if they give up nothing. Not very valuable, is it?

Face it, the Blazers made the necessary move and it hasn't hurt them one bit. They got the money from the expiring contract earlier and use it appropriately. The plan succeeded.

Also, imagine Randolph on the 2008-2009 Blazer team when both Oden and Przybilla were healthy. He has no role on that team. He'd be a backup making way too much money and that's why he was traded long before that became reality.

Above all, Randolph isn't a Nate McMillan type player. He likes players that are versatile and Randolph definitely is not that. He just wasn't a good fit so the Blazers got the best value any team would give up for him and shipped him out and they haven't regretted that decision since.

Sure, ZBO straight up...but throw Batum or Rudy in there and it becomes a starting point. Especially with a team like New Orleans going nowhere and bad financial situation. The point is there was more flexibility to have ZBO than to fall ass backwards into Andre Miller as a second option after being shut down by Hedo.


And for your Crash Theory...so just because we used one EC to get a lopsided deal negates the possibility of it happening again?

yeah.

And as for ZBO on that 08-09 blazers team...remind me again who the backup PF was? Oh yeah. TRAVIS OUTLAW. yeah, Zach wouldn't have helped at all.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

S

There are plenty of logical reasons why the trade makes sense when it comes to just the basketball side of it. Keep ignoring them, though.

Besides "addition by subtraction" (which isn't really a logical reason), name one or two.

 

[RoyToy]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

Sure, ZBO straight up...but throw Batum or Rudy in there and it becomes a starting point. Especially with a team like New Orleans going nowhere and bad financial situation. The point is there was more flexibility to have ZBO than to fall ass backwards into Andre Miller as a second option after being shut down by Hedo.

The Jazz got Harris and a #2 overall pick plus picks. The Blazers can't even come close to matching that with ZBO.

And for your Crash Theory...so just because we used one EC to get a lopsided deal negates the possibility of it happening again?

The Crash deal was extremely lucky and almost didn't even happy. Going for two sweet deals is incredibly unlikely. That also means you would have to have kept him the past 4 years when he isn't a Nate McMillan player and doesn't fit on the roster at all.

And as for ZBO on that 08-09 blazers team...remind me again who the backup PF was? Oh yeah. TRAVIS OUTLAW. yeah, Zach wouldn't have helped at all.

Travis Outlaw is a Nate McMillan player in that he played the stretch/hybrid 4 role which McMillan loves. Randolph is obviously not a stretch 4 and that would have been a failure. Randolph has no spot on this team playing a lot of minutes. So like I said, plenty of logical reasons why trading ZBO made a ton of sense when it comes to just the basketball side of it.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

The Jazz got Harris and a #2 overall pick plus picks. The Blazers can't even come close to matching that with ZBO.

The Crash deal was extremely lucky and almost didn't even happy. Going for two sweet deals is incredibly unlikely. That also means you would have to have kept him the past 4 years when he isn't a Nate McMillan player and doesn't fit on the roster at all.

Travis Outlaw is a Nate McMillan player in that he played the stretch/hybrid 4 role which McMillan loves. Randolph is obviously not a stretch 4 and that would have been a failure. Randolph has no spot on this team playing a lot of minutes. So like I said, plenty of logical reasons why trading ZBO made a ton of sense when it comes to just the basketball side of it.

Depends on how much the Jazz would want to save money. Hornets were certainly in a position to try and save money. There is more flexibility with having ZBOEC as a trading asset.

"Extremely lucky"? Big trades in which talent for expiring contracts happen happen every year. It took a huge bungle by Pritchard to fuck up using RLEC so of course the crash deal seemed "lucky".

"Strech hybrid 4" role? He was horrible in it. Sure he hit a few game winners...but glaring weaknesses with those lineups. o-boarding was horrible. points in the paint sucked. ZBO is a great halfcourt player and fits nate's style quite well.

 

[RoyToy]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

Depends on how much the Jazz would want to save money. Hornets were certainly in a position to try and save money. There is more flexibility with having ZBOEC as a trading asset.

Lol sorry, it takes real players to get the true stars in this league, not expiring contracts. ZBO + Rudy/Batum is not enough. Arguing otherwise is dead wrong.

"Extremely lucky"? Big trades in which talent for expiring contracts happen happen every year. It took a huge bungle by Pritchard to fuck up using RLEC so of course the crash deal seemed "lucky".

Deal got done with 9min left before the trade deadline. These kind of deals aren't easy to put together and they don't happen as often as you think.

"Strech hybrid 4" role? He was horrible in it. Sure he hit a few game winners...but glaring weaknesses with those lineups. o-boarding was horrible. points in the paint sucked. ZBO is a great halfcourt player and fits nate's style quite well.

Outlaw wasn't horrible, lol. Besides, you're missing the main point. Outlaw is the kind of player McMillan likes to use a lot at the 4 and ZBO isn't that. Not a great fit at all. McMillan values versatility and there's nothing about ZBO that is versatile. Not a McMillan player, bad fit.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

Lol sorry, it takes real players to get the true stars in this league, not expiring contracts. ZBO + Rudy/Batum is not enough. Arguing otherwise is dead wrong.

Wrong. It depends on the financial position of the teams. What about Gasol for Kwame Brown + Gasol. Cost saving move, really lopsided trade.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

Outlaw wasn't horrible, lol. Besides, you're missing the main point. Outlaw is the kind of player McMillan likes to use a lot at the 4 and ZBO isn't that. Not a great fit at all. McMillan values versatility and there's nothing about ZBO that is versatile. Not a McMillan player, bad fit.

This is why we got Dante Cunningham/Pendergraph instead of DeJuan Blair? I'd rather have Blair rather than a tweener. Management's lack of ability to secure a backup PF is shit.

 

[RoyToy]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

Wrong. It depends on the financial position of the teams. What about Gasol for Kwame Brown + Gasol. Cost saving move, really lopsided trade.

Gasol isn't quite on the same level as Deron and CP3. They are true difference makers. Gasol is a very nice player, but isn't on their level.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

Gasol isn't quite on the same level as Deron and CP3. They are true difference makers. Gasol is a very nice player, but isn't on their level.

Yeah, he only has 2 NBA rings and should have been the finals MVP last year. I'd be shocked if CP3 or Deron ever win a ring without playing next to a top 5 player in the league.

 

[RoyToy]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

This is why we got Dante Cunningham/Pendergraph instead of DeJuan Blair? I'd rather have Blair rather than a tweener. Management's lack of ability to secure a backup PF is shit.

The Lakers use a tweener backup 4. It's not some terrible thing. The key is to just have a good backup.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

The Lakers use a tweener backup 4. It's not some terrible thing. The key is to just have a good backup.

There's a huge difference between a Lamar Odom and a Dante Cunningham/Travis Outlaw.

 

[RoyToy]

Re: Is it time for me to stick it to the ZBo haters yet?

Yeah, he only has 2 NBA rings and should have been the finals MVP last year. I'd be shocked if CP3 or Deron ever win a ring without playing next to a top 5 player in the league.

Ring argument always = failure.

Gasol is a very nice player on a team filled with good players. That said, Lakers fans will tell you Kobe and Bynum are the real keys to a championship. Remember the Lakers lost to the Celtics without Bynum, but have 2 since when he played.

CP3 and Deron are real difference makers. Gasol is a very nice player, but I don't think he is quite on their level.