OT Is James Harden the best PG in the NBA?

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TBpup said:
That is likely because Dame is a PG and CJ is a SG. I agree CJ is mostly a black hole on offense and is much more guilty of missing open teammates. Watch how many times teammates will role/flash/cut and CJ won't even look at them. However, that doesn't let Dame off the hook. As a PG who handle the ball as much as he does. to be averaging under 5 assists per game does seem quite low.
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At the same time - Harden won't have as high an assist number... again, low sample sizes for both people. I wonder what Dame had this time last year?

2nd - I'm only talking about when CJ is the PG for the 2nd unit.
 
blue9 said:
Yeah, we'll see if he's able to maintain this. But if we're talking about Dame's efficiency being off the charts on a small sample size then that courtesy has to be extended to other players as well. As of this moment, Harden is blasting Nash's numbers out of the water.
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Yes, the sample size is small in both cases. Harden's scoring is only up 2.6 ppg from last season. So, that shouldn't surprise anyone for such a small sample size. What is surprising is that HOUs pace isn't up under D'Antoni (they are 16th in the league, right smack in the middle of the pack) and Harden isn't taking any more shots this year (19.1 FGA/G) than last (19.7 FGA/G).

Like Dame, Harden's increase in scoring is due to better shooting percentages. Harden is shooting significantly better from both 2-point range and 3-point range compared to last year and his FG%, 3FG% and TS% are all carer highs.

In Dame's case, we can clearly see how he has improved his scoring efficiency. He's driving more and finishing much better at the rim. He has clearly improved in this area and this is a new skill that should prove sustainable. He's not just going through an early season hot shooting streak.

In Harden's case, why is he shooting the ball so much better than he has in years past? Are his career best shooting percentages sustainable for an entire season, or will he regress to the norm? It will be interesting to see.

One thing that I don't think is sustainable is HOU's won-loss record. They are currently the same 4-3 as we are, but their four wins are: 2 wins over DAL who is 1-5, 1 win over NYK who are 2-4 and 1 win over WAS who are 1-5. Their defense is ranked 27th in the league. They won't be able to stay about .500 with such a porous defense.

BNM
 
blue9 said:
Steve Nash was generally thought of as the best PG when he was at his peak, despite being a worse defender than Harden. And he averaged half the points and half the rebounds Harden is averaging, and never broke 12 APG. Soooo, if you thought Nash was the best PG (I didn't) then you should probably think Harden is the current best. The numbers he's putting up are unreal.

Of course, following that line of thinking, Westbrook has to be in the conversation, and would be my pick due to playing on both ends of the floor.
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Worse defender than Harden? Yeah, not so much.
 
I don't get how some of these posters put so many asterisks next to some of these players like Westbrook and now Harden..

"Ohh he averages great assists numbers because he has the ball a lot.. "

"Oh well YEA he has great assists numbers because of THIS.."


"Oh well YEA he has great assists numbers because of THAT.."

Like seriously?? My goodness I hate Harden and Westbrook can be annoying as fuck but my god stop hating on their skills.
 
Tunchi said:
I don't get how some of these posters put so many asterisks next to some of these players like Westbrook and now Harden..

"Ohh he averages great assists numbers because he has the ball a lot.. "

"Oh well YEA he has great assists numbers because of THIS.."


"Oh well YEA he has great assists numbers because of THAT.."

Like seriously?? My goodness I hate Harden and Westbrook can be annoying as fuck but my god stop hating on their skills.
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Didn't you do that to Lillard last year because of his efficiency numbers?

Just sayin'
 
Strenuus said:
Didn't you do that to Lillard last year because of his efficiency numbers?

Just sayin'
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His FG percentages sucked plain and simple.

This year is what you call great numbers
 
TBpup said:
I'm not sure if it is Dame (and CJ) or the offense. Stotts has it so designed to be so guard oriented. The wings and bigs all run around setting screens and then not really looking to roll hard to the basket. If they do get it, look at how many times they don't look to shoot and instead look to get the ball right back to either guard. When they are open and actually going towards the hoop, so often they are missed because the guards are looking for their own shot.

The lack of aggressively looking for their own scoring opportunities becomes a negative cycle as when they do, they don't get the ball so they stop doing so.

It's just a matter of trying to determine if that is the goal of the offense or just who Dame/CJ are.
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Well, Dame was 10th in total assists last year and 8th in assists per game, so it's not like he's bad at distributing the ball.

I think our offense is out of sync right now, and that's giving us lower assist numbers.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Well, Dame was 10th in total assists last year and 8th in assists per game, so it's not like he's bad at distributing the ball.

I think our offense is out of sync right now, and that's giving us lower assist numbers.
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It's people making 7 games a whole season... people are still steadfast in their views regardless.
 
People talk about Westbrook as a great passing point guard, but his averages are all over the place.

5.3
8.0
8.2
5.5
7.4
6.9
8.6
10.4
9.9

Solid, but hardly John Stockton or Jason Kidd.
 
Maybe a better question would have been if Lillard was averaging 32/13/7 would he be the best player in the league? Especially since some thought he was top 5 now
 
BLAZINGGIANTS said:
Har_en?

He's a one-way player.

Based on every argument you've ever made about one-way players (and there have been many), you've negated and answered your own question.
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I'll make you a deal. If the great white hype ever averages 32 points and 13 rebounds per game I'll stop talking about 1 way players
 
Mediocre Man said:
Maybe a better question would have been if Lillard was averaging 32/13/7 would he be the best player in the league? Especially since some thought he was top 5 now
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Who actually thought he was top 5? I thought most, if not all, thought he was maybe top 10.

Also, there's a VAST difference between starting out the first 7-8 games averaging 32/13/7 and putting up those kinds of numbers for a full season.

I guess we shall see.
 
BLAZINGGIANTS said:
Har_en?

He's a one-way player.

Based on every argument you've ever made about one-way players (and there have been many), you've negated and answered your own question.
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Mediocre Man said:
Maybe a better question would have been if Lillard was averaging 32/13/7 would he be the best player in the league? Especially since some thought he was top 5 now
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IF....he were averaging that he would certainly be a Top-5 player especially if his defense improved. However, his assist would have to go up over 150% to get near that level and his rebounds would have to go up significantly as well. There there is the other side of the ball where he is much more in Curry's class than someone like CP3, Conley or Westbrook.

Dame is very good but right now, he is very much a scoring guard who doesn't distribute much and doesn't play very good defense. That doesn't mean I don't like him....it's just who he is right now.
 
HCP said:
Bro, if you have a player on your team that can get you 12 dimes a game and STILL gets 30+ points......
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...on small sample size.

ISO players playing in an ISO-centric offense whole always have inflated assist numbers (Harden, Westbrook). If a team relies only on one player for all of their offense then that player must either get their own shot off or set up a shot for a teammate nearly every possession. That okayed is bound to get tons of assists just because of the way he's used and the position he's in.

If Lillard was used the way Harden is, he'd average over 10 assists per game. But he plays in an offense that values ball movement, and he also doesn't have the shooters around him Harden does. So is Harden really that much better because he ISO's all the time and because he has better shooters?
 
TBpup said:
IF....he were averaging that he would certainly be a Top-5 player especially if his defense improved. However, his assist would have to go up over 150% to get near that level and his rebounds would have to go up significantly as well. There there is the other side of the ball where he is much more in Curry's class than someone like CP3, Conley or Westbrook.

Dame is very good but right now, he is very much a scoring guard who doesn't distribute much and doesn't play very good defense. That doesn't mean I don't like him....it's just who he is right now.
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Top 10 in assists last year. I don't think it's really fair to say he doesn't distribute much. The idea of a pass-first-point guard is kind of a dying breed.

Also, as good of a defender as Westbrook is, I'd say that Dame has lit him up on more than one occasion.
 
Mediocre Man said:
I'll make you a deal. If the great white hype ever averages 32 points and 13 rebounds per game I'll stop talking about 1 way players
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Who are you? John Kerry? One minute, a player isn't great (or even good) because he's a one-way player. The next, a player might be despite being one of the lamest defenders in the league. And you're calling him a PG to boot.
 
BLAZINGGIANTS said:
Who are you? John Kerry? One minute, a player isn't great (or even good) because he's a one-way player. The next, a player might be despite being one of the lamest defenders in the league. And you're calling him a PG to boot.
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If the "one way" of a one-way player is arguably the best in the league, then that is sufficient for that player to be great. Ben Wallace was an all-star as a one way player, because he was phenomenal. Dennis Rodman is in the hall-of-fame as a one-way player. Tony Allen was coveted by many in here for years despite being a one-way player.

I don't think MM's position is at all unreasonable, or even inconsistent. Leonard is a one-way player who's not really all that great on that particular side of the court, so his negatives outweigh his positives. Harden is putting up numbers (so far) that we've never seen (30 & 12). Historic numbers from a one-way player are still historic numbers, and more than enough to outweigh the poor defense.
 
I'll say one thing about Harden....he's playing with the perfect coach for his game....Steve Nash was no stellar defender either...Harden is playing the best ball he's played as a Rocket so far....he's an incredible passer...something we don't really have bragging rights about in Portland
 
It doesn't really matter, he's probably the best guard in the NBA. Westbrook and Curry are the only ones that deserve to be in that discussion along with him. Anyone that's actually watched them play know he's far from being selfish and also that this is far from being an ISO offense. These assists are not greedy assist, there is an actual offense that they run here and he runs it. Sure sometimes he goes ISO but he's Harden, he can pull that off every now and then. Sometimes Kawhi goes ISO, doesn't mean the Spurs have an ISO offense.

The main difference is that Harden has always been an excellent PNR player and with Dwight gone he finally gets to run the PNR now and he willingly slings the ball all over the court. He'll really only attack as the game nears the end. The hate on Harden is funny though, truth is he's a top 5 player in the NBA. Anyone that's watched that Spurs game would see he's far from a selfish player, he put on a passing display. Does it every night. Pocket passes, full court heaves, passing across the defense...as someone mentioned before it really doesn't matter. Curry is more of a SG and Westbrook is more of a...combination of the two I suppose.

Also his defense has been well hid all year. You won't find a single rocket fan complain about his defensive effort. Last year you couldn't say the same. The reason is he's not being asked to guard the hardest opponent true, but he's had less moments where he spaces out and loses focus.

Oh yeah to @Orion Bailey for calling me out some weeks ago about scaring me away. Nah, but I get it. I despise the Utah Jazz, their fans, and everything their fans stand for. That is an eternal rival that I will always have hate for, so I get why one would frustrate you so much to remember me :P
 
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