OT Is James Harden the best PG in the NBA?

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HCP said:
When does playing defense ever come into play when talking about the best or MVP level players. It SHOULD, but it DOESN'T!
Reggie Miller made allstar games all the time and never played D. The aforementioned Nash was a HORRIBLE defender. There are TONS of all star level players who suck on the defensive end of the court.
But when you are as completely dominating as Harden is on the other end, who gives a fuck!
Of course everybody wants a player that brings it on both ends, but that just isn't the norm.
Just wishing people would sit back and give credit where it's due. I hate him and the Rockets, but damn sure acknowledge how good he is.
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Michael Jordan, ShaQ, Hakeem. All MVPS? All All defensive first team.
 
Orion Bailey said:
Michael Jordan, ShaQ, Hakeem. All MVPS? All All defensive first team.
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Man nobody said there aren't many examples of all stars and MVPs that kill it on BOTH ends. I said it SHOULD be more of a prerequisite, but on many occasions it isn't. So to have people not give Harden his much deserved credit because of his lack of any D at all is ridiculous.
 
Orion Bailey said:
Michael Jordan, ShaQ, Hakeem. All MVPS? All All defensive first team.
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Your point? That many great offensive players are also great defenders? Yeah, we know that. But players like Curry and Nash can win MVP's based purely on offense, while being terrible on defense, but nobody has ever won MVP for being unbelievable on defense and even average on offense.

With the MVP award, defense is never any more than a tie-breaker.
 
HCP said:
When does playing defense ever come into play when talking about the best or MVP level players. It SHOULD, but it DOESN'T!
Reggie Miller made allstar games all the time and never played D. The aforementioned Nash was a HORRIBLE defender. There are TONS of all star level players who suck on the defensive end of the court.
But when you are as completely dominating as Harden is on the other end, who gives a fuck!
Of course everybody wants a player that brings it on both ends, but that just isn't the norm.
Just wishing people would sit back and give credit where it's due. I hate him and the Rockets, but damn sure acknowledge how good he is.
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Here is the thing though. If Dame were in his spot on that team, do you think Dame would have worse, the same, or better stats?

I think they would be at minimum the same. Same if you put almost any starting PG into his role on that team. CP3, Lowry, COnley. I think they all put up the same type of numbers if put into the same situation.
If this is agreed upon, then isn't it fair to say,. he really isn't doing anything any other star in the league would be doing in the same situation, which basically means he really isn't any better than others in his position?

I'm just saying, if you could plug half a dozen PG's in the league into his position, I think they put up the same numbers. Not saying Harden sucks, but AMAZING, I think is stretching based on my opinions of that position on that team and who could do what with it right now.
 
Orion Bailey said:
Here is the thing though. If Dame were in his spot on that team, do you think Dame would have worse, the same, or better stats?

I think they would be at minimum the same. Same if you put almost any starting PG into his role on that team. CP3, Lowry, COnley. I think they all put up the same type of numbers if put into the same situation.
If this is agreed upon, then isn't it fair to say,. he really isn't doing anything any other star in the league would be doing in the same situation, which basically means he really isn't any better than others in his position?

I'm just saying, if you could plug half a dozen PG's in the league into his position, I think they put up the same numbers. Not saying Harden sucks, but AMAZING, I think is stretching based on my opinions of that position on that team and who could do what with it right now.
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D'antoni has had other starting PG's who couldn't do anything comparable. So I think it's more than a tad disingenuous to say that almost any starting PG could do the same. And to be honest, I think Harden is simply a better passer than Dame is. I don't think Dame could average 13 apg, even on a D'antoni team.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
Your point? That many great offensive players are also great defenders? Yeah, we know that. But players like Curry and Nash can win MVP's based purely on offense, while being terrible on defense, but nobody has ever won MVP for being unbelievable on defense and even average on offense.

With the MVP award, defense is never any more than a tie-breaker.
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Below. :)

@HCP said "When does playing defense ever come into play when talking about the best or MVP level players. It SHOULD, but it DOESN'T!"

HCP said:
Man nobody said there aren't many examples of all stars and MVPs that kill it on BOTH ends. I said it SHOULD be more of a prerequisite, but on many occasions it isn't. So to have people not give Harden his much deserved credit because of his lack of any D at all is ridiculous.
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Butt that isn't what you said. I just quoted you above. But I do agree with what you JUST said. IT should be more of a prerequisite. Who cares if you can score 50 pts per game if your opponents still outscore you for the game. :)

Didn't the Pistons D win finals MVP?
Or was that Ben Wallace.
I know its rare, and I don't know about regular season MVP, but I think D is looked at more than is being stated when discussing MVP. I could be wrong.
 
Who were D'Antoni's Pos in NYC? I can't remember.
 
I think Harden is amazing (at least on one end) and not afraid to admit it. That wasn't the question posed though people. Not best overall PG for me but easily top 5.
 
KeepOnRollin said:
I think Harden is amazing (at least on one end) and not afraid to admit it. That wasn't the question posed though people. Not best overall PG for me but easily top 5.
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Besides CP3, do any of the top 5 or so play defense? Trying to think who does.
 
It's guys like Avery Bradley (who Dame told me personally guards him the best out of any other player in the league) that truly plays D as a PG.
 
Nice work stats guy!
Harden is one of the best players in the league hands down. Move along.
 
Every year we have a thread like this when a player is putting up insane numbers. Last year it was Anthony Davis who for the first week or so was averaging a per of 50+. One poster who I will not name felt the need to make a thread on it. People told him it would not be sustained. He then countered with, but what if he does is he the MVP or best player in the league? I personally just ignored it because it was a troll thread.

But to stay on topic
As far as this year through 9 Huston Rocket games, Harden has indeed put up good numbers that could equal him being one of the best point guards in the league.
Defense is still a concern as I've seen plays for the Rockets that he just doesn't make it down to that end of the court. As well as him loosing his man of defense and giving up wide open attempt at the rim.(Wait that's Howard's fault still right Rocket fans? Gotcha, fucking Howard cancer to the Rockets all the way in Atlanta)
At the end of the day players like Nash or Curry did it for an entire season(s).
Harden has lead his team to a 5-4 start with 4 wins on the road. Can't take anything away from that.
We'll see what happens 20-30 games in because I know @BigGameDamian will bump this if Harden is anywhere near those numbers at the all-star break + end of season. Maybe even a few times in between who knows.

My top 5 for this season at the point spot are.
1 - Westbrick
2 - CP3
3 - Lillard
4 - Harden
5 - ?????

At the moment as far as best guard in the league. DeRozan has to be on the short list if not named the best for this season so far.
 
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honkicracker said:
Every year we have a thread like this when a player is putting up insane numbers. Last year it was Anthony Davis who for the first week or so was averaging a per of 50+. One poster who I will not name felt the need to make a thread on it. People told him it would not be sustained. He then countered with, but what if he does is he the MVP or best player in the league? I personally just ignored it because it was a troll thread.

But to stay on topic
As far as this year through 9 Huston Rocket games, Harden has indeed put up good numbers that could equal him being one of the best point guards in the league.
Defense is still a concern as I've seen plays for the Rockets that he just doesn't make it down to that end of the court. As well as him loosing his man of defense and giving up wide open attempt at the rim.(Wait that's Howard's fault still right Rocket fans? Gotcha, fucking Howard cancer to the Rockets all the way in Atlanta)
At the end of the day players like Nash or Curry did it for an entire season(s).
Harden has lead his team to a 5-4 start with 4 wins on the road. Can't take anything away from that.
We'll see what happens 20-30 games in because I know @BigGameDamian will bump this if Harden is anywhere near those numbers at the all-star break + end of season. Maybe even a few times in between who knows.

My top 5 for this season at the point spot are.
1 - Westbrick
2 - CP3
3 - Lillard
4 - Harden
5 - ?????

At the moment as far as best guard in the league. DeRozan has to be on the short list if not named the best for this season so far.
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Harden this season..... 30pts/13assists/8rebs
Harden last season......29pts/8assists/6rebs

I don't think it's that big of a stretch to think he could continue those numbers over a whole season.
 
Hey guess who is never going to like Harden or think he's ever good.

THIS GUY!

/wookee
 
HCP said:
Harden this season..... 30pts/13assists/8rebs
Harden last season......29pts/8assists/6rebs

I don't think it's that big of a stretch to think he could continue those numbers over a whole season.
Click to expand...

I'm not going to talk about previous seasons because that opens another can of worms that won't look too kindly on Mr. Harden.
I will say this though, regardless if I believe it's possible or not.
Lillard 2 years ago averaged 21ppg.
Last year he averaged 25.1 ppg.
This year he's averaging 30.7 ppg.

I don't think it's that big of a stretch to think he could continue those numbers over a whole season.
 
Eh... will never be impressed by him. Not hating, just not my cup of tea.

(cue the obligatory 'your tea must taste like crap' post... sorry to take it from you)
 
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