Exclusive Is Joe Cronin a good GM?

[Ripcity4life77]

Cronin has gotten better so part of me wonders if he had handcuffs put on him but even if true I still think there were ways to get the job done that would have helped the Blazers more then it has at least in his first 2 or so years as the GM.

 

[wizenheimer]

Unfairly criticizing others comes naturally to me and requires zero effort.

Trying to read the flow of multiple hypotheticals in your post is overwhelming and I couldn't easily follow it.

my mental effort was more minimal than your minimal mental effort....or less minimal when I think about it

 

[kjironman1]

I don't believe that

Which is fair.
Can I ask why you don’t believe that?

 

[kjironman1]

Is THIS the Cronin thread we are posting in or the other one?

I CAN see this thread.

 

[blazerkor]

I don't know if Joe is a good GM. I know that he inherited a team that was stuck in mediocrity. I know he tore that team down and hasn't rebuilt much. I am pretty damn sure he's too risk averse for the job.

What annoys me most about Joe is that the one time that his hand was forced when Dame demanded a trade, he dominated. That trade and all of the trades associated with it were fantastic. Then when his hand isn't forced it's just one tiny step after another. Yeah, the Deni move was also fantastic but besides those two moves what has Joe done that was significant???

All of that to say, I really hope Dundon has a someone to replace Joe and I know that's dangerous because the new front office could be a disaster and Joe definitely hasn't been that but to say Joe has been trigger shy would be a huge understatement.

 

[wizenheimer]

I don't know if Joe is a good GM. I know that he inherited a team that was stuck in mediocrity. I know he tore that team down and hasn't rebuilt much. I am pretty damn sure he's too risk averse for the job.

What annoys me most about Joe is that the one time that his hand was forced when Dame demanded a trade, he dominated. That trade and all of the trades associated with it were fantastic. Then when his hand isn't forced it's just one tiny step after another. Yeah, the Deni move was also fantastic but besides those two moves what has Joe done that was significant???

All of that to say, I really hope Dundon has a someone to replace Joe and I know that's dangerous because the new front office could be a disaster and Joe definitely hasn't been that but to say Joe has been trigger shy would be a huge understatement.

I'm wondering something though if the way we tend to gauge a GM like Cronin is actually the way he should be judged

by that I mean we tend to go: Deni--->Great trade; Norm Powell-->weak trade; Grant-->clever trade but poor decision to re-sign to a bloated contract; Sharpe-->probably best pick that could be expected; Scoot--not so much; Yang-->disaster decision. Then you total all of it together, the great+good+meh+bad+wtf and come up with a grade somewhere above or below the median of average GM and plot it on the chart

but maybe a better way to gauge, and maybe the way Dundon will gauge, is a lot more macro and big picture. That being something like this:

* Cronin has been in charge for a little more than 4 years. The team he took over won 48 games (Covid Adj.) the season before he took over (Covid Adjusted). He's had 4 trade deadlines (about to be 5) and 4 off-seasons to build a roster. He's presided over 4 drafts while having 5 first round picks, 4 lottery picks, and 5 second round picks. And even accounting for tanking, his team's overall record in his tenure of 140-239 is a bit eyebrow raising. And in the 'crucial' season, which he has publicly called 'winning-time-now', the result of his 4 years or roster building is a team 5 games below .500 heading into that 5th trade deadline; and it's looking like Duop for Krejci will be all that happens.

and making all that worse is that in every one of those seasons, now the 5th season, his rosters have all had limited flexibility because the biggest cap maneuvers have all been dodging the luxury tax as the Blazers are always in the top half of the NBA in payroll...that for teams with a cumulative .369 winning percentage

maybe that's not quite fair considering he inherited a mess from Olshey, but I'm not sure if Dundon will take the time to worry about being fair

*********************************************************************************

and yeah....I know there is context to the following:

these were the bottom of the NBA standings in 2021-22 at the end of Cronin's first season running the Blazers:

Portland 27-55
Indiana 25-57
OKC 24-58
Detroit 23-59
Orlando 22-60
Houston 20-62

so, in reverse order:

* Houston was 41-41 two seasons ago; 52-30 and 2nd seed in the playoffs last season; and 31-17 this season as 4th seed
* Orlando has made the playoffs the last 2 seasons and are headed for them again this season
* Detroit made the playoffs last season and has a 5.5 game lead for #1 seed in the EC this season
* OKC won 57 & 68 games last 2 seasons; won 5 of 6 playoff series and the championship; 40-11 this season with #1 overall seed
* Indiana 47 & 50 wins; playoffs last 2 years winning 5 of 7 playoff series; played in finals before tanking this season, and just traded for Zubac

meanwhile: Blazers have gone 140-239 and not only haven't been in the playoffs, they haven't even been in the play-in

again, I know there is some context to all this but I wonder if Dundon will consider that context

 

[blazerkor]

I'm wondering something though if the way we tend to gauge a GM like Cronin is actually the way he should be judged

by that I mean we tend to go: Deni--->Great trade; Norm Powell-->weak trade; Grant-->clever trade but poor decision to re-sign to a bloated contract; Sharpe-->probably best pick that could be expected; Scoot--not so much; Yang-->disaster decision. Then you total all of it together, the great+good+meh+bad+wtf and come up with a grade somewhere above or below the median of average GM and plot it on the chart

but maybe a better way to gauge, and maybe the way Dundon will gauge, is a lot more macro and big picture. That being something like this:

* Cronin has been in charge for a little more than 4 years. The team he took over won 48 games (Covid Adj.) the season before he took over (Covid Adjusted). He's had 4 trade deadlines (about to be 5) and 4 off-seasons to build a roster. He's presided over 4 drafts while having 5 first round picks, 4 lottery picks, and 5 second round picks. And even accounting for tanking, his team's overall record in his tenure of 140-239 is a bit eyebrow raising. And in the 'crucial' season, which he has publicly called 'winning-time-now', the result of his 4 years or roster building is a team 5 games below .500 heading into that 5th trade deadline; and it's looking like Duop for Krejci will be all that happens.

and making all that worse is that in every one of those seasons, now the 5th season, his rosters have all had limited flexibility because the biggest cap maneuvers have all been dodging the luxury tax as the Blazers are always in the top half of the NBA in payroll...that for teams with a cumulative .369 winning percentage

maybe that's not quite fair considering he inherited a mess from Olshey, but I'm not sure if Dundon will take the time to worry about being fair

*********************************************************************************

and yeah....I know there is context to the following:

these were the bottom of the NBA standings in 2021-22 at the end of Cronin's first season running the Blazers:

Portland 27-55
Indiana 25-57
OKC 24-58
Detroit 23-59
Orlando 22-60
Houston 20-62

so, in reverse order:

* Houston was 41-41 two seasons ago; 52-30 and 2nd seed in the playoffs last season; and 31-17 this season as 4th seed
* Orlando has made the playoffs the last 2 seasons and are headed for them again this season
* Detroit made the playoffs last season and has a 5.5 game lead for #1 seed in the EC this season
* OKC won 57 & 68 games last 2 seasons; won 5 of 6 playoff series and the championship; 40-11 this season with #1 overall seed
* Indiana 47 & 50 wins; playoffs last 2 years winning 5 of 7 playoff series; played in finals before tanking this season, and just traded for Zubac

meanwhile: Blazers have gone 140-239 and not only haven't been in the playoffs, they haven't even been in the play-in

again, I know there is some context to all this but I wonder if Dundon will consider that context

I think either way and you're right the macro way of evaluation does seem much better but either way you look at it Joe is incredibly underwhelming transaction window to transaction window with the exception of the time he was compelled to make a big move and nailed it or the better, macro way which is extremely damning.

No matter how I cut it, if I were Tom Dundon, I'd bring in my own person. I'd probably try to get a retired executive from a championship team to consult on hiring a young new president of basketball ops.

 

[Everything Beagle]

In three months he probably won’t be a GM at all so it doesn’t really matter

 

[Natebishop3]

I'm wondering something though if the way we tend to gauge a GM like Cronin is actually the way he should be judged

by that I mean we tend to go: Deni--->Great trade; Norm Powell-->weak trade; Grant-->clever trade but poor decision to re-sign to a bloated contract; Sharpe-->probably best pick that could be expected; Scoot--not so much; Yang-->disaster decision. Then you total all of it together, the great+good+meh+bad+wtf and come up with a grade somewhere above or below the median of average GM and plot it on the chart

but maybe a better way to gauge, and maybe the way Dundon will gauge, is a lot more macro and big picture. That being something like this:

* Cronin has been in charge for a little more than 4 years. The team he took over won 48 games (Covid Adj.) the season before he took over (Covid Adjusted). He's had 4 trade deadlines (about to be 5) and 4 off-seasons to build a roster. He's presided over 4 drafts while having 5 first round picks, 4 lottery picks, and 5 second round picks. And even accounting for tanking, his team's overall record in his tenure of 140-239 is a bit eyebrow raising. And in the 'crucial' season, which he has publicly called 'winning-time-now', the result of his 4 years or roster building is a team 5 games below .500 heading into that 5th trade deadline; and it's looking like Duop for Krejci will be all that happens.

and making all that worse is that in every one of those seasons, now the 5th season, his rosters have all had limited flexibility because the biggest cap maneuvers have all been dodging the luxury tax as the Blazers are always in the top half of the NBA in payroll...that for teams with a cumulative .369 winning percentage

maybe that's not quite fair considering he inherited a mess from Olshey, but I'm not sure if Dundon will take the time to worry about being fair

*********************************************************************************

and yeah....I know there is context to the following:

these were the bottom of the NBA standings in 2021-22 at the end of Cronin's first season running the Blazers:

Portland 27-55
Indiana 25-57
OKC 24-58
Detroit 23-59
Orlando 22-60
Houston 20-62

so, in reverse order:

* Houston was 41-41 two seasons ago; 52-30 and 2nd seed in the playoffs last season; and 31-17 this season as 4th seed
* Orlando has made the playoffs the last 2 seasons and are headed for them again this season
* Detroit made the playoffs last season and has a 5.5 game lead for #1 seed in the EC this season
* OKC won 57 & 68 games last 2 seasons; won 5 of 6 playoff series and the championship; 40-11 this season with #1 overall seed
* Indiana 47 & 50 wins; playoffs last 2 years winning 5 of 7 playoff series; played in finals before tanking this season, and just traded for Zubac

meanwhile: Blazers have gone 140-239 and not only haven't been in the playoffs, they haven't even been in the play-in

again, I know there is some context to all this but I wonder if Dundon will consider that context

Orlando had the number 1 pick and took Banchero

Detroit had the number 1 pick and took Cade Cunningham.

OKC has SGA and a bunch of picks from trading Paul George.

Indiana traded Sabonis for Haliburton.

We needed assets to be able to trade for young talent like Deni.

Houston is really the best comparison if you want to try to compare apples to apples. But are they really that good? I don’t think they’re a true contender.

Things would be very different if we had won the lottery and took Wemby. A lot of what you’re talking about is luck. The Blazers have had trash luck in the lottery.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

these were the bottom of the NBA standings in 2021-22 at the end of Cronin's first season running the Blazers:


Portland 27-55
Indiana 25-57
OKC 24-58
Detroit 23-59
Orlando 22-60
Houston 20-62

Kind of amazing all the teams from this group have improved so much.... Except us

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Orlando had the number 1 pick and took Banchero

Detroit had the number 1 pick and took Cade Cunningham.

OKC has SGA and a bunch of picks from trading Paul George.

Indiana traded Sabonis for Haliburton.

We needed assets to be able to trade for young talent like Deni.

Houston is really the best comparison if you want to try to compare apples to apples. But are they really that good? I don’t think they’re a true contender.

Things would be very different if we had won the lottery and took Wemby. A lot of what you’re talking about is luck. The Blazers have had trash luck in the lottery.

Did any of those teams that successfully rebuild pay Jerami Grant types $160 million when they were tanking?

I don't think the main issue with Cronin was draft luck.

It was building an overpaid core around guys like Ayton Ant Grant and having such high payroll we had to ship out assets to duck the luxury tax.

Was some of that stupidity Bert Kolde? Maybe, but if not it's something that moves a GM from your unlucky bucket to plain bad.

 

[wizenheimer]

Orlando had the number 1 pick and took Banchero

Detroit had the number 1 pick and took Cade Cunningham.

OKC has SGA and a bunch of picks from trading Paul George.

Indiana traded Sabonis for Haliburton.

We needed assets to be able to trade for young talent like Deni.

Houston is really the best comparison if you want to try to compare apples to apples. But are they really that good? I don’t think they’re a true contender.

Things would be very different if we had won the lottery and took Wemby. A lot of what you’re talking about is luck. The Blazers have had trash luck in the lottery.

I did note there is some context missing....but there is also a little context missing to your rebuttal

you mentioned Banchero and Cunningham. How do they compare to Avdija? I'd say Cade may be a little better and Banchero is worse. How did the Blazers get Deni? Did the front office expect him to be an all-star so soon? I'm sure Cronin advocates will say it was him being shrewd and maybe it was; but how much of it was luck? And why is Detroit so much better than Portland. They got Jalen Duren with a 13th pick. Was that just luck or were they shrewd?

so, Cade vs Deni. If there is a gap between their talents, is the gap large enough to explain why Detroit is on a pace to win 62 games and Portland is on a pace to win 37 games? That sure isn't all due to Detroit getting Cade

Portland vs Detroit vs Spurs. Blazers are 2-5 without Deni; Detroit is 5-1 without Cade; Spurs are 10-4 without Wemby. Setting aside the question of how much skill and how much luck went into landing each team's best player, it sure looks like the rosters of Detroit and San Antonio are a lot better and more complete when the best player is out. Just luck?

what I see is that since Cronin took control, OKC has lapped Portland a couple of times; Detroit has lapped the Blazers; Indiana-Houston-San Antonio-Orlando....they've all lapped Portland as well. It's kind of looking like Charlotte has found a groove. In the last 4 seasons Toronto has won 41 - 25 - 30 and are currently the 6th seed on a pace to win 47 games

the discussion was kind of about how Dundon may view the job Cronin has done. Maybe he'll see the context you see and cut him some slack. or maybe, he won't spend much time worrying about context and looks at a roster that should be better than it is and blames the guy in charge. Cronin doesn't really bug me like Olshey did. I just think he's about average as a GM. I guess I'm kind of ambivalent. But I think a major shake-up in direction and style in the front office would probably be a good thing