Exclusive Is Joe Cronin a good GM? (1 Viewer)

[THE HCP]

Why would Billups do that? Seems he should try to get a settlement or hold out he can get some of his contract.

Might be attorneys on both sides deciding more of how this plays out than Billups or the team.

There's zero chance he coaches the Blazers again though.

Rozier is getting all his money and judge just decided the other day. Wonder is Chauncey will?

 

[andalusian]

Rozier is getting all his money and judge just decided the other day. Wonder is Chauncey will?

I think that rozier got his because of the CBA, there is no such agreement for.coachea, my guess, he will not.

 

[wizenheimer]

Our front office said they never got that offer. Could be lying. Could be not.

I don't believe that

 

[Chris Craig]

No

 

[Cugel]

no fuckin way. This roster is an absolute trainwreck. No rhyme or reason. Ancient vets playing with G-league guys with no contract? Who else does that?

 

[Chris Craig]

Not sure how 14 of you voted yes

 

[Five Second Violation]

Last summer is looking so bad for Cronin.

The draft is looking worse than originally thought and it already looked pretty awful. Passing on Coward, Queen, or taking the Dumars offer is just looking ridiculously dumb. And that's to say nothing of the fact that Yang doesn't even look close to contributing and he's a poor fit even if he somehow does.

The Simons for Holiday trade is also looking pretty bad if we can't move off Jrue at the deadline. At this point it appears that we just took on more years and more salary for an older guy who's breaking down fast and who doesn't even look like a meaningful short term upgrade now.

Oh yeah, and we extended Chauncey. Instant regret on that one.

Any good juju he might have earned from the previous offseason with Deni + Clingan kind of got erased there.

 

[AldoTrapani]

he’s a solid little gm. Perfect for a market that accepts ok’ness

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Our front office said they never got that offer. Could be lying. Could be not.

Also sounds like even Atlanta was confused on the offer and had to call Dumars multiple times to confirm it was really unprotected.

In this example I can certainly understand the Blazers not having the same options Atlanta had. Now if it was reported we clearly were offered it and turned it down I'd be critical. But until that is confirmed I'm going to believe the Blazers did not clearly receive that offer. It makes total sense with how spontaneous and illogical the Pelicans are managed.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

That's not an excuse that's an admission of incompetence. Just saying. If you make a move like that without talking to every front office in the league then you are failing at your job.

Just like right now if our front office hasn't kicked the tires with every other front office they aren't only being incompetent they're just flat out being lazy and are OK with missed opportunities.

There are what a couple minutes between draft picks? It's not really possible for Cronin to personally contact all 29 teams in the middle of the draft. It was reported by multiple sources the Pelicans spontaneously made these offers at the last minute before picks were being made.

This example shows the incompetency of the Pelicans management - not the Blazers.

Similar to the Luka trade, while I wish we had got him for an insane discount like the Lakers, its not Cronin fault that Nico Harrison was an idiot and decided to secretly shop him to one team.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

I don't believe that

Did you see all the reports of the confusion Atlanta had that it was a fully unprotected pick? They had multiple assistants confirm with Pelican staff, and eventually they had to personally confirm with Dumars. It sounds like a chaotic negotiation from the Pelicans end that the Pelicans botched to not canvas the league.

I'm sure another team would have agreed to a similar deal but with at least top4 or more protections.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Last summer is looking so bad for Cronin.

The draft is looking worse than originally thought and it already looked pretty awful. Passing on Coward, Queen, or taking the Dumars offer is just looking ridiculously dumb. And that's to say nothing of the fact that Yang doesn't even look close to contributing and he's a poor fit even if he somehow does.

The Simons for Holiday trade is also looking pretty bad if we can't move off Jrue at the deadline. At this point it appears that we just took on more years and more salary for an older guy who's breaking down fast and who doesn't even look like a meaningful short term upgrade now.

Oh yeah, and we extended Chauncey. Instant regret on that one.

Any good juju he might have earned from the previous offseason with Deni + Clingan kind of got erased there.

All good points and totally fair criticisms.

I will say the Dame signing was very good though. Many GM would have hold a grudge or tried to prove its now my team and not Dame or such. I'm glad Cronin doesn't have an ego that got in the way.

I loved the Ayton buyout too.

 

[wizenheimer]

Did you see all the reports of the confusion Atlanta had that it was a fully unprotected pick? They had multiple assistants confirm with Pelican staff, and eventually they had to personally confirm with Dumars. It sounds like a chaotic negotiation from the Pelicans end that the Pelicans botched to not canvas the league.

I'm sure another team would have agreed to a similar deal but with at least top4 or more protections.

what I read was a series of links that were posted on RealGM. The capsulized version was that New Orleans urgently was making 'offers' to teams who had the 10th-13th picks in the draft; they went down the list until they got to Atlanta. The Hawks initially said WUT? and then worked the phones to confirm that the Pels were actually offering the unprotected 2026 pick.

now, I guess you can believe that the Pels started out with lottery protection to #10; then went top-10 protection with Portland; then top-4 protection to #12; but then in despair after being rebuffed by the first 3 teams, offered the pick unprotected to the team with the 13th pick.....instead of logically returning to the first 3 teams and making the same offer knowing that Queen would be more likely to be available at 10 or 11 than at 13. I don't find that credible at all

 

[1 Eye Jack]

People are way too short sighted with Yang pick. Everyone in NBA knew he was going to take some time to acclimate to NBA especially since he’s young barely speaks English and he’s a big. I stand by my position he will be legit NBA stater within next 2-3 years. I also think he’ll be better than Clingan

 

[HansenYang]

now, I guess you can believe that the Pels started out with lottery protection to #10; then went top-10 protection with Portland; then top-4 protection to #12; but then in despair after being rebuffed by the first 3 teams, offered the pick unprotected to the team with the 13th pick.....instead of logically returning to the first 3 teams and making the same offer knowing that Queen would be more likely to be available at 10 or 11 than at 13. I don't find that credible at all

How can the Pels go back and 'up' their offer for picks 10, 11, 12?
By that time - the picks were already made. Suns, Portland/Memphis, and Chicago already made their picks/deals.

Pels were in a crunch and were desperate (as Hawks were on the clock). That desperation is part of why they dropped the protections.

Apparently, some of us think time machines are real.... or else have never been part of real intense negotiations with a ticking clock.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

How can the Pels go back and 'up' their offer for picks 10, 11, 12?
By that time - the picks were already made. Suns, Portland/Memphis, and Chicago already made their picks/deals.

Pels were in a crunch and were desperate (as Hawks were on the clock). That desperation is part of why they dropped the protections.

Apparently, some of us think time machines are real.... or else have never been part of real intense negotiations with a ticking clock.

Yeah I think some posters are under the illusion this was negotiated days before the draft with multiple calls.

All the reporting I have heard lines up with your explanation. The Pels panicked and were dropping protections at the last minute to get a deal done. This was after Portland had picked. The Hawks were so shocked they had to confirm multiple times of exactly what was being offered. There's stories from Hollinger and Duncan that the Pels didn't ever know they owned the unprotected better of Pelicans/Bucks pick.

Maybe Atlanta was able to tell the Pelicans what pick they had to trade since they had a former Pelicans exec. But the Blazers didn't let the Pelicans know? Lol just total gross incompetence on the Pelicans side.

John Hollinger: “One of the things, so since we dumped on Chicago and Phoenix here, one of the things I've been told about this trade is that New Orleans didn't even understand what it was trading. And that Atlanta had in its front office, because Atlanta had Bryson Graham in their front office who had just come from New Orleans.”

Nate Duncan: “I mean, that's ridiculous… How can you not understand that? I knew what pick it was immediately. I don't work for a team.”

 

[wizenheimer]

How can the Pels go back and 'up' their offer for picks 10, 11, 12?
By that time - the picks were already made. Suns, Portland/Memphis, and Chicago already made their picks/deals.

Pels were in a crunch and were desperate (as Hawks were on the clock). That desperation is part of why they dropped the protections.

Apparently, some of us think time machines are real.... or else have never been part of real intense negotiations with a ticking clock.

so all of this happened in the 5 minutes between Chicago picking 12 and Atlanta picking 13? LOL...sure...the Pels hadn't decided they wanted Queen until the draft had already started. They didn't know that their 23rd pick wouldn't be high enough to land Queen until the afternoon of draft day. They had no discussions, at all, none, with teams in the 10-13 range until Silver announced the draft had started when Dallas took Cooper Flagg. Not a single phone call in the week or two before the draft

yeah right

 

[SharpesTriumph]

so all of this happened in the 5 minutes between Chicago picking 12 and Atlanta picking 13? LOL...sure...the Pels hadn't decided they wanted Queen until the draft had already started. They didn't know that their 23rd pick wouldn't be high enough to land Queen until the afternoon of draft day. They had no discussions, at all, none, with teams in the 10-13 range until Silver announced the draft had started when Dallas took Cooper Flagg. Not a single phone call in the week or two before the draft

yeah right

Nobody said there were zero discussions or zero planning.

People are saying that its very possible the unprotected pick offer from NOP was not clearly made to the Blazers.

I haven't seen it posted anywhere it was offered - so why are you assuming it was offered?

 

[RR7]

Nobody said there were zero discussions or zero planning.

People are saying that its very possible the unprotected pick offer from NOP was not clearly made to the Blazers.

I haven't seen it posted anywhere it was offered - so why are you assuming it was offered?

Because it makes Cronin/Blazers look bad?

 

[THE HCP]

Is THIS the Cronin thread we are posting in or the other one?

 

[BoBoBREWSKI]

Overall, I think Joe has done a great job. Sure not all moves/draft picks pan out, but that's the case for every GM in every sport.

 

[wizenheimer]

Nobody said there were zero discussions or zero planning.

People are saying that its very possible the unprotected pick offer from NOP was not clearly made to the Blazers.

I haven't seen it posted anywhere it was offered - so why are you assuming it was offered?

do you believe that the Pels talked to Cronin about their 11th pick for the 23rd and 2026 pick? and did so before the draft had started?

what protection do you think they were offering to Portland? Why are you assuming the unprotected pick wasn't offered for 11 when it was traded for 13?

this goes both directions you know

 

[SharpesTriumph]

do you believe that the Pels talked to Cronin about their 11th pick for the 23rd and 2026 pick? and did so before the draft had started?

what protection do you think they were offering to Portland? Why are you assuming the unprotected pick wasn't offered for 11 when it was traded for 13?

this goes both directions you know

If this was the Celitcs or Warriors or Spurs that made the trade I'd expect the Blazer had heard the offer.

But that Pelicans GM role is a disaster - so I don't have the expectation they properly shopped the offer with other teams. Thus I give the benefit of the doubt that Cronin didn't make a mistake in this example at its more likely that it was a bonehead move from the Pelicans. Their track record speaks for itself. Also the Atlanta exec's having a former Pelicans exec is an advantage solely that Atlanta had.

I don't know 100%. Cronin certainly didn't do a GREAT job in this situation as he failed to get a deal that another team ultimately did. But thats very different than him declining a no brainer great trade offer as some here have criticized Cronin for.

 

[wizenheimer]

If this was the Celitcs or Warriors or Spurs that made the trade I'd expect the Blazer had heard the offer.

But that Pelicans GM role is a disaster - so I don't have the expectation they properly shopped the offer with other teams. Thus I give the benefit of the doubt that Cronin didn't make a mistake in this example at its more that it was a bonehead move from the Pelicans. Their track record speaks for itself.

I don't know 100%. Cronin certainly didn't do a GREAT job in this situation as he failed to get a deal that another team ultimately did. But thats very different than declining a no brainer great trade offer.

to make what you're assuming was the real situation, you have to believe one primary thing: that Joe Dumars, who spent 14 seasons running the Pistons and managed 14 draft days for them, was a disorganized idiot in his 15th try at running a draft day. It's possible I guess, but it doesn't seem real credible

 

[RR7]

to make what you're assuming was the real situation, you have to believe one primary thing: that Joe Dumars, who spent 14 seasons running the Pistons and managed 14 draft days for them, was a disorganized idiot in his 15th try at running a draft day. It's possible I guess, but it doesn't seem real credible

Looking at Dumars' track record, I think disorganized idiot is a pretty apt description

 

[wizenheimer]

Looking at Dumars' track record, I think disorganized idiot is a pretty apt description

you mean his record of his team winning a championship and being named executive of the year?

I guess what it comes down to is if you believe that Dumars started out offering the 23rd pick and something like top-10 protection for the 2026 pick-->2027 pick to teams with 10-13 picks. Then after being rebuffed, when they obviously were heavily invested in landing Queen, they ended up offering something like top-4 protection for 2026+unprotected 2027.

Then, when all those offers were rebuffed, and only in the 5 minutes between the 12th and 13th picks they panicked and just offered the unprotected 2026 to Atlanta, and Atlanta had the time to say "WUT, is that real?", talk among themselves, call the Pels back, get Dumars himself on the phone, and confirm it was unprotected, then both sides signed off on the trade and that's how it all went down....in 5 minutes

that sure seems to be along the lines of what we're expected to believe happened. And again, happened with a guy who was running his 15th draft. Sure it's all possible, but it's a real stretch

and consider the middle ground of those two possibilities: that Cronin was offered something like the 23rd + the 2026 or 2027 Pels pick top-4 protected, but turned that down. And we know how high he was/is on Yang. Is that more credible and does it really make it a much better decision?

I'll even play the devil's advocate against what I believe happened: Cronin did get the the unprotected 2028 Orlando pick in the trade e executed. And that may not be a coincidence considering the obligations against the 2028 swap with the Bucks. he might be hoping that pick will give him some leverage if the swap is valuable and in danger

 

[SharpesTriumph]

you mean his record of his team winning a championship and being named executive of the year?

I guess what it comes down to is if you believe that Dumars started out offering the 23rd pick and something like top-10 protection for the 2026 pick-->2027 pick to teams with 10-13 picks. Then after being rebuffed, when they obviously were heavily invested in landing Queen, they ended up offering something like top-4 protection for 2026+unprotected 2027.

Then, when all those offers were rebuffed, and only in the 5 minutes between the 12th and 13th picks they panicked and just offered the unprotected 2026 to Atlanta, and Atlanta had the time to say "WUT, is that real?", talk among themselves, call the Pels back, get Dumars himself on the phone, and confirm it was unprotected, then both sides signed off on the trade and that's how it all went down....in 5 minutes

that sure seems to be along the lines of what we're expected to believe happened. And again, happened with a guy who was running his 15th draft. Sure it's all possible, but it's a real stretch

and consider the middle ground of those two possibilities: that Cronin was offered something like the 23rd + the 2026 or 2027 Pels pick top-4 protected, but turned that down. And we know how high he was/is on Yang. Is that more credible and does it really make it a much better decision?

I'll even play the devil's advocate against what I believe happened: Cronin did get the the unprotected 2028 Orlando pick in the trade e executed. And that may not be a coincidence considering the obligations against the 2028 swap with the Bucks. he might be hoping that pick will give him some leverage if the swap is valuable and in danger

I've been very critical of Cronin at times - but the amount of mental effort your going through to critize him is impressive!

 

[HansenYang]

so all of this happened in the 5 minutes between Chicago picking 12 and Atlanta picking 13? LOL...sure...the Pels hadn't decided they wanted Queen until the draft had already started. They didn't know that their 23rd pick wouldn't be high enough to land Queen until the afternoon of draft day. They had no discussions, at all, none, with teams in the 10-13 range until Silver announced the draft had started when Dallas took Cooper Flagg. Not a single phone call in the week or two before the draft

yeah right

What a complete false flag you just planted there...

Pels wanted Queen. That was obvious... They had initial conversations.
But to think the offers on those initial conversations are the same as the 'best and final' is ludicrous.

When people are faced with a decision of missing out on what they want and there is a deadline -> they make emotional decisions and give up control. This is what happened to the Pels.

 

[wizenheimer]

I've been very critical of Cronin at times - but the amount of mental effort your going through to critize him is impressive!

can you please quantify the difference in mental effort I'm putting in to criticize him with the mental effort you're putting in criticizing my take?

 

[SharpesTriumph]

can you please quantify the difference in mental effort I'm putting in to criticize him with the mental effort you're putting in criticizing my take?

Unfairly criticizing others comes naturally to me and requires zero effort.

Trying to read the flow of multiple hypotheticals in your post is overwhelming and I couldn't easily follow it.