Isiah acquires Rose, Taylor and 2 1st round picks

[Trip]

Yeah, and Damon also took 6 shots less with Portland per game. Still, the reason I think he didn't do as good as he did in Toronto in Portland is because of the fact that he wasn't the best player on the team anymore. He was used to taking the scoring load in Toronto, but he found out with the Blazers that there were players who could play better than him, and he somewhat backed off of the ball on offense in Portland. And how the hell could an injury affect your passing? His assists dropped by 2 in his second season in Portland. It's unfair to label him as a 20ppg guy when it is clear he was able to get it only because someone on a losing team had to.

 

[Knicks Analyst]

Trip, what are you talking about? I never labeled him as a 20ppg guy. I just think you're being unreasonable that's all. Admit this, for the time Stoudamire played in Toronto (Where he was drafted by Isiah). Was he worthy of the 7th pick? And don't give me the team's record, they were an expansion team.

<u>Was Stoudamire worthy of the 7th pick in Toronto?</u>

 

[P.A.P.]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Was Stoudamire worthy of the 7th pick in Toronto</div>

He was...It's not like Isiah is some mastermind though. Damon was already a high projected pick though so it's not like Isiah did some rocket science **** to pick him. Tracy Mcgrady > Excellent Choice, Damon Stoudamire > Good selection, Marcus Camby > Horrible selection, Trevor Ariza > Good Selection as of now.

For Camby, he wasn't a great player at UMass. He was selected because he broke out in his last season there, however, most of that was due to the fact that the team did not have any great scoring options, and Camby was better at the PF/C posistion than most college players. His improvement came with playing time, but most of the players he played against were stiffs, so that's a big reason for his acceleration. Many knew he wouldn't be that good in the NBA, as is the case now. Isiah just got caught up in the hype of how good Camby did at the time. If you ask many older Raptor fans, they'll tell you their thoughts on the bad selection of Camby, from that specific time.

<font color="Red">No cursing. Thanks. - Knicks Analyst</font>

 

[Knicks Analyst]

I agree with you about Camby, Banks. 100% correct IMO. I understand Isiah wasn't a mastermind with the pick of Stoudamire, but it still was a superb pick nonetheless. You said yourself he's made some fine picks. I'm not defending Isiah as a GM, just as a drafter. Trust me, I think Isiah is the worst GM (He's actually Pres. of Basketball operations, but still) in the entire league. But he still does have an eye for talent.
He is a good drafter, nothing more.

 

[Shapecity]

In hindsight it's easy to look back on a draft and rip GMs for passing up on this or that player. Looking back on those drafts, sure, Isiah passed over a lot of talent, but you cannot put the sole blame on him. You have to also blame the team scouts at the time. Most GM's only actually watch a few players, based on the recommendations of their scouting team. If the scouts give them bad reports, then of course the GM is going to make a bad decision.

Wow I just defended Isiah.

You can't criticize Isiah drafting Damon Stoudamire. The Raptors needed a PG for the team, and Damon was the best available coming into the draft. The Raptors had Doug Christie as their future SG, and they had plenty of forwards already on the team. So it didn't make sense for them to draft a big, Damon made the most sense, and he went on to win ROY. What happened after that, you can't blame Isiah because he had nothing to do with it.

In the 1996 draft the Raptors took Camby as another piece to build around Damon. They unloaded a lot of their veterans from the previous year, and went after a shotblocker. At the time the Raptors had Damon-Christie-Walt Williams-Rozier-Sharone Wright. The obvious weak spot was at PF, so Camby made the most sense. Sure he passed up on Reef (SF), Marbury (PG), Allen (SG), Walker (SF), Kobe (SG), Peja (SG), JO (PF), Ilgauskas &copy;, but at the time none of those players made sense to take. The Raptors were set in the backcourt, and Jermaine O'neal and Ilgauskas were two unknowns at the time.

 

[Trip]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">Trip, what are you talking about? I never labeled him as a 20ppg guy. I just think you're being unreasonable that's all. Admit this, for the time Stoudamire played in Toronto (Where he was drafted by Isiah). Was he worthy of the 7th pick? And don't give me the team's record, they were an expansion team.

<u>Was Stoudamire worthy of the 7th pick in Toronto?</u></div>
When did I ever say he wasn't worthy of that pick? Now that doesn't mean he was a great choice by Thomas. Looking at the rest of his class, it was basically a no-brainer to pick Damon, and Isiah did just that. I wouldn't say that he was a genius for picking Stoudamire, because of what he's turned out to be now.

Now, Marcus Camby was not a good pick at all by Isiah, so I don't get why mrj18 is actually applauding Isiah for the move.

 

[Knicks Analyst]

He was a good selection at the 7th pick. That's all I wanted to hear. Thanks.

 

[Nasty]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">
In the 1996 draft the Raptors took Camby as another piece to build around Damon. They unloaded a lot of their veterans from the previous year, and went after a shotblocker. At the time the Raptors had Damon-Christie-Walt Williams-Rozier-Sharone Wright. The obvious weak spot was at PF, so Camby made the most sense. Sure he passed up on Reef (SF), Marbury (PG), Allen (SG), Walker (SF), Kobe (SG), Peja (SG), JO (PF), Ilgauskas &copy;, but at the time none of those players made sense to take. The Raptors were set in the backcourt, and Jermaine O'neal and Ilgauskas were two unknowns at the time.</div>


When you're an expansion team, you don't pick for position, you select the best player and the best talent and you build around it.

Starting swingmen of Christie and Walt in nowhere near set!
Passing on talents like Kobe and Allen who who had a tremendous year at UConn are just plain stupid!

It ain't my problem that you New York cats are so blinded by anything Knick related that you make stupid comments like that. A team that is in their second year in the league shouldn't pass on talent that has great potential for a need.

 

[Platehpus]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Purple Fever:</div><div class="quote_post">First of all, it was the 1997 draft.</div>
This is the only part of your post I read. You want to come into the Knicks forum and talk smack, go for it. You'll get shut down no matter what. Know your facts though, homeboy. Marcus Camby was drafted in 1996, not 1997. So yeah, think and do some research before you call us blinded.

 

[Nasty]

OMG, I got confused between the year McGrady was drafted and Camby was drafted, OMG, you beat me, OMG Knick fans know everything

I didn't talk smack at all, I just have a point and I'm stuck by it.

 

[Platehpus]

<strike>No, I just made you look like an idiot after you tried to grill someone.

</strike>
<font color="red">Personal attacks will not be tolerated. Keep this debate clean and informative.</font>

And they're not making stupid comments, their points are just as valid as yours are...you just see things differently. Don't call people "blinded" if you don't want a flame war.

 

[Nasty]

Score!!

 

[Shapecity]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Purple Fever:</div><div class="quote_post">First of all, it was the 1997 draft.
Secondly, when you're an expansion team, you don't pick for position, you select the best player and the best talent and you build around it.

Starting swingmen of Christie and Walt in nowhere near set!
Passing on talents like Kobe and Allen who who had a tremendous year at UConn are just plain stupid!

It ain't my problem that you New York cats are so blinded by anything Knick related that you make stupid comments like that. A team that is in their second year in the league shouldn't pass on talent that has great potential for a need.</div>It was the 1996 class source

I'm not a NY cat, hell, I've never even been to NY in my life. Irrelevant anyways.

No one said they were set at SG/SF, but they did have young talent at those positions. Passing up on talent with great potential was a bad decision. However, keep in mind a lot of these players refused to play in Canada in the first place. Camby was a mistake, but I was just trying to justify why Isiah selected him. I don't agree with his decision, but at the same time I don't fault him for taking Camby.

If you are going to take the stance those are stupid comments, then I guess you think all the NBA GMs in the league, all the scouts, all the owners, and all the experts are stupid. Every GM has passed up on talent it's part of the job. That doesn't equate to Isiah being a good GM, I think he's a terrible one, but his drafts aren't all that bad considering his options at the time.

 

[Nasty]

I wasn't talking about you, Shape. I only responded to your comments about the Raptors need to select Camby.

I was talking about the other poster(s) who said Camby is better than Marbury and Peja, that isn't stupid??

 

[Shapecity]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Purple Fever:</div><div class="quote_post">I wasn't talking about you, Shape. I only responded to your comments about the Raptors need to select Camby.

I was talking about the other poster(s) who said Camby is better than Marbury and Peja, that isn't stupid??</div>It's all good, those comments made me scratch my head, too. Camby is not better than either of those players or Big Z.

 

[Vintage]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Purple Fever:</div><div class="quote_post">I wasn't talking about you, Shape. I only responded to your comments about the Raptors need to select Camby.

I was talking about the other poster(s) who said Camby is better than Marbury and Peja, that isn't stupid??</div>


Its stupid. I agree.

Problem is, some people keep trying to win the dumbest comment of the year award.

 

[P.A.P.]

^

 

[Knicks Analyst]

I have to disagree with mrj as well. Sorry, man. Think that out.

 

[Nasty]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Vintage:</div><div class="quote_post">Its stupid. I agree.

Problem is, some people keep trying to win the dumbest comment of the year award.</div>

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm puzzled on how you picked Camby over Peja and Z. Peja is one of the best scorers in the league. He's an above average defender, forget all that stereotype stuff about the Europeans being weak defenders, but Peja is better than the average NBA player at defending. His scoring and defense defintly puts him over the top of Camby's overall defense (blocking, rebounding) and scoring.</div>
I wouldn?t even say better than average. He?s just decent. Nothing more than decent. They also play two different positions as well and Peja is a shooter while Camby is a defensive player. And why would I pick Camby over Peja? Peja played 2 years in Greece before coming to the NBA if I was Isiah, why would I wait to years for him and sign him. From what I heard, he wasn?t too good and had to play overseas and get better. Isiah might not have been willing to wait that long which is understandable.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Z is still the better option than Camby. Put Camby in Z's situations over these past 8 years and see how we does. I seriously doubt that the Cavs would be the same team as they were at the time. Sure maybe save a few points defensively, but he would give them less scoring. Z creates much more scoring oppurtunies for his opponents than what Camby saves his team on defense.</div>
I don?t know about that. Camby blocks shots and inasmuch as he might not get the block, he alters shots and gives people second thought about taking it in the paint again. He also brings much more energy than what Z brings to the Cavs and his defense usually creates fast break opportunities and easy scoring opportunities for his team which again, is taken for granted because it doesn?t show up on the stat sheet. I think Camby and Z is more of an opinion than an obvious much better draft selection.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">10-15 is defintly stretching it. He's not a great man to man defender since he can get burned easily inside, but he's tough and competes, however he's more of a good help defender.</div>
I don?t even know if that?s stretching it. Overall, Camby is an excellent defender especially inside. That forces the opposition to rely more on a perimeter game rather than take it inside. He hustles which again, not on the stat sheet, he?s tough, which again, not on the stat sheet. He eliminates tons of points I don?t know the actual statistical value, I just wont be surprised if it was true.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Ilgauskas has been doing it consistently. Stoudamire started out hot and became a supposed elite player, while Z was always quietly and consistently putting up 12-16ppg, through the team's rough years, and also their successful one, which is this season. Stoudamire has been consistent in Portland too, but it didn't change when the Blazers won. Z is having career numbers in this season where Cleveland is doing good, but Stoudamire's stats are always 13/6, no matter if the team is winning or not. A good player steps up to the occasion when their team needs him to.</div>
Well, you said once Stoudamire was surrounded by more talent, his numbers dropped. So, Z is having one good season where he has someone creating for him. Any player will flourishes with a good passer on the floor. Stoudemire had to create for himself and others which is much harder to do so if his numbers went down, it?s understandable. Camby has played on different teams and his role has changed since then as opposed to Z who always played on the Cavs when they sucked with the exception of this year. Even so, Z doesn?t have such a huge advantage over Camby like some of you implied, I?d say they might be even although I?d take Camby over Z.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Now, Marcus Camby was not a good pick at all by Isiah, so I don't get why mrj18 is actually applauding Isiah for the move.</div>
Camby wasn?t a good pick? Why not? The Raptors were weakest at the big position and Camby was a solid big man. What?s wrong with the pick? I have no idea why anyone has a problem with it and it was such a horrible pick? Camby turned out to be a pretty decent player. That seemed to be the pick that made the most sense as well.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I was talking about the other poster(s) who said Camby is better than Marbury and Peja, that isn't stupid??</div>
Which poster said Marbury and Peja are better than Camby? I know you can?t be referring to me. I never said that, I did however say I?d select him over them in the draft as well. First off, why would Isiah draft Marbury when he has Damon? So two PG?s in the backcourt, one 5?10 and the other 6'2? The Raptors were fairly solid at the G/F spots and they were slim at the PF spot. Peja played two years in Greece after he got drafted and I don?t know if Isiah would be willing to wait for him that long just to play his rookie year.

And btw, why do you think Marbury is so good? One of the most overrated players in the league.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Its stupid. I agree.

Problem is, some people keep trying to win the dumbest comment of the year award.</div>
Sorry, that award was taken by the same person who said and I quote, "Isiah isn?t a good drafter", and the person who said Kurt Thomas isn?t a good rebounder.

The fact of the matter is, even if you think Isiah made a mistake, overall his r?sum? is very good and to say he can't pick up a good player with a low pick in the 2nd round, is very stupid. What's holding him back from packaging them and moving up in the draft?

 

[Shapecity]

MrJ18 read post #72 in this thread .. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I still consider Camby better than Walker, Peja and Z.</div>

 

[jbbCourtVision]

^Good find Shape

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">MrJ18 read post #72 in this thread ..</div>
A better pick.

 

[Trip]

Mrj, you said before that Camby is better than Walker, Peja and Z, period. You didn't say that he was a better choice in the draft at the time, but rather that he still would be your choice among the aforementioned three players and himself. Camby is just a 10/9 guy now, can't you see?

You mention hustle, but so what? A lot of role players hustle. Look at Jerome Williams. He hustles, rebounds, plays good defense, but would that make him as good as Camby. At this point of his career, Camby is strictly a role player, called upon to grab rebounds, block shots, and sink the occasional open 15-footer. He doesn't even play outstanding one on one defense. It'll be safe to say that he's even one dimensional.

 

[P.A.P.]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I wouldn?t even say better than average. He?s just decent. Nothing more than decent. They also play two different positions as well and Peja is a shooter while Camby is a defensive player. And why would I pick Camby over Peja? Peja played 2 years in Greece before coming to the NBA if I was Isiah, why would I wait to years for him and sign him. From what I heard, he wasn?t too good and had to play overseas and get better. Isiah might not have been willing to wait that long which is understandable.</div>

Why don't you watch him in a few games then make judgements. He's above dencent. All of your judgements are about players you hardly see. Like in the threads about players you should draft. Almost everything you say is from you reading things and what you "heard". Try watching the players first and evaluating them.

Don't try to switch this around. We're talking about currently, not in the past son.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Maybe this year he might be having a better season, but overall throughout the their career, I'd take Camby. I still consider Camby better than Walker, Peja and Z. </div>

^

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Camby wasn?t a good pick? Why not? The Raptors were weakest at the big position and Camby was a solid big man. What?s wrong with the pick? I have no idea why anyone has a problem with it and it was such a horrible pick? Camby turned out to be a pretty decent player. That seemed to be the pick that made the most sense as well.</div>

A solid big man. Not a great one. We had the second pick for bleeping sake. Camby wasn't a projected top 3, 4 pick back then. We didn't have to draft for posistion, especially considering that the point was the only posistion considered taken. You take the best player available. We had a need for a big man yes, but we also had a need for the and SG, SF and PF (if you consider Camby a C). Drafting for your biggest need isn't a great idea when your an expansion team like the Raps. At the time their were atleast 3 better players from college that didn't play the PG, that were better options than Camby.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don?t even know if that?s stretching it. Overall, Camby is an excellent defender especially inside. That forces the opposition to rely more on a perimeter game rather than take it inside. He hustles which again, not on the stat sheet, he?s tough, which again, not on the stat sheet. He eliminates tons of points I don?t know the actual statistical value, I just wont be surprised if it was true.</div>

Yea it is stretching. Through out Cambys career, his +/- stat isn't over 10 not even 5. So to say that he saves 10-15 points a game is laughable. Camby might be "tough", but if you put him up against mid-tier PF's and Centers, he'll get owned. He's too weak to cover the Randolph's, Duncan's, Brand's and Shaq's (obviously) of the league, and isn't versatile enough to guards the Webber's, Amare's and Dirk's. He looks good because he guards a bunch of stiff Centers that have no offensive skills that aren't primary options. He's a good defender yes, but he's not as good as your hyping him to be. A very good weak side help defender is what he is.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The fact of the matter is, even if you think Isiah made a mistake, overall his r?sum? is very good and to say he can't pick up a good player with a low pick in the 2nd round, is very stupid</div>

Who exactly are you reffering to.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Sorry, that award was taken by the same person who said and I quote, "Isiah isn?t a good drafter", and the person who said Kurt Thomas isn?t a good rebounder.</div>

Don't even try twisting words. I said Kurt Thomas isn't that good of a rebounder. If you're gonna try that don't even bother posting.

One more time, lets give it up for the dumbest comment of the year

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Maybe this year he might be having a better season, but overall throughout the their career, I'd take Camby. I still consider Camby better than Walker, Peja and Z. </div>

 

[Knicks Analyst]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Banks:</div><div class="quote_post">One more time, lets give it up for the dumbest comment of the year
</div>
Enough baiting, Banks. No more, please. Thanks in advance.

 

[P.A.P.]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">Enough baiting, Banks. No more, please. Thanks in advance.</div>

I'm not the one carrying ont he stupid arguement man. The kids gives a comment towards me like that, that aint even quoted. What do you expect me to do? Say you're right even though he aint?

 

[Knicks Analyst]

Ok. Just because he's the only one who thinks that, doesn't mean it's the dumbest comment. Stay on topic, no more personal attacks.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">Mrj, you said before that Camby is better than Walker, Peja and Z, period. You didn't say that he was a better choice in the draft at the time, but rather that he still would be your choice among the aforementioned three players and himself. Camby is just a 10/9 guy now, can't you see? </div>
Excuse me, I meant the better pick. Why did you only mention is scoring and rebounding abilities?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You mention hustle, but so what? A lot of role players hustle. Look at Jerome Williams. He hustles, rebounds, plays good defense, but would that make him as good as Camby. At this point of his career, Camby is strictly a role player, called upon to grab rebounds, block shots, and sink the occasional open 15-footer. He doesn't even play outstanding one on one defense. It'll be safe to say that he's even one dimensional.</div>
So, Ilguaksas rebounds (not as well), and doesn't play good defense. His offense is better than Camby. Z is a role player too. I wouldn't consider him a star. He is just a role player with James obviously being the star on his team. What makes Z so much better? What makes him so much better?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Banks:</div><div class="quote_post">Why don't you watch him in a few games then make judgements. He's above dencent. All of your judgements are about players you hardly see. Like in the threads about players you should draft. Almost everything you say is from you reading things and what you "heard". Try watching the players first and evaluating them.</div>
How the hell do you know what I watch him? I do watch him, and why are you the only one on his meat about his defense? I've seen him play defense it has improved, but it's nothing great...that's my evaluation.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Don't try to switch this around. We're talking about currently, not in the past son.</div>
I believe we were talking about the draft which is in the past, son.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">A solid big man. Not a great one. We had the second pick for bleeping sake. Camby wasn't a projected top 3, 4 pick back then. We didn't have to draft for posistion, especially considering that the point was the only posistion considered taken. You take the best player available. We had a need for a big man yes, but we also had a need for the and SG, SF and PF (if you consider Camby a C). Drafting for your biggest need isn't a great idea when your an expansion team like the Raps. At the time their were atleast 3 better players from college that didn't play the PG, that were better options than Camby.</div>
Camby is a power forward or a center. Camby is/was not a bad player like some of you imply. Maybe he might not have had the career others had, but he turned out to be a good player. The fact of the matter is whether you think Isiah scrwed up or not, this one incident can not take away what he has done.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yea it is stretching. Through out Cambys career, his +/- stat isn't over 10 not even 5. So to say that he saves 10-15 points a game is laughable. Camby might be "tough", but if you put him up against mid-tier PF's and Centers, he'll get owned. He's too weak to cover the Randolph's, Duncan's, Brand's and Shaq's (obviously) of the league, and isn't versatile enough to guards the Webber's, Amare's and Dirk's. He looks good because he guards a bunch of stiff Centers that have no offensive skills that aren't primary options. He's a good defender yes, but he's not as good as your hyping him to be. A very good weak side help defender is what he is.</div>
But Z gives you more +/-? What is his +/- stat please show me a link. Z plays better defense? Since some of you guys like stats so much
ZI: 29.0mpg 14.8ppg 7.7rpg 1.2apg 0.56spg 1.87bpg 2.1TO
MC: 29.1mpg 10.7ppg 8.5rpg 1.9apg 0.96spg 2.31bpg 1.4TO
What is so much better about Z which sky rockets him over Camby? I just don't see.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Who exactly are you reffering to.</div>
The poster(s) who said Isiah wasn't a good drafter


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Don't even try twisting words. I said Kurt Thomas isn't that good of a rebounder. If you're gonna try that don't even bother posting.</div>
First of all, I think Kurt Thomas is a great rebounder, second of all who said I was quoting you? So before you accuse me of anything why don't you get your facts staright!!

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">One more time, lets give it up for the dumbest comment of the year</div>
I think this comment in which I owned you in wins: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Don't even try twisting words. I said Kurt Thomas isn't that good of a rebounder. If you're gonna try that don't even bother posting.</div>

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Banks:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not the one carrying ont he stupid arguement man. The kids gives a comment towards me like that, that aint even quoted. What do you expect me to do? Say you're right even though he aint?</div>
First off, I never said I was quoting you, kid. You are wrong, while I am tempted to flame with you, I'm going to be the mature one and leave it at that.