It's time for CJ McCollum to go.

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Strenuus said:
I will always defend Ant. He is the next blazers superstar.
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But what will you do when he goes 4/17 and keeps shooting ? or when he doesn't pass at least 6 assists per game? or if he doesn't defend AND scores 20ppg because that's really hard?

That ball hog! how dare he?!
 
Blazers1977 said:
yikes are you really trying to use 12 games this season as a data sample.

sure dude. Stotts who gets paid millions to coach doesn’t know what he’s doing. The ESPN authors that ranked CJ as the 13th best player DONT know what they are doing. You do.

Again, CJ plays a position that on average shoots the lowest FG%. There’s no way of communicating with people like you who are so obsessed with stats that you’re incapable of looking at the context of the stats. You’re just making apples-to-oranges comparisons with other players that don’t take as tough of shots as CJ because they play entirely different roles in the offense.

people did the same thing with Kobe. People who were obsessed with analytics said Pau was the real star on the lakers. People with half a brain know it was Kobe.

there’s a reason CJ got a 9 digit contract and it’s not because he’s an average shooter.
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For fuck's sake man, when are you going to acknowledge that people are talking about everything that goes into being a good basketball player, not just how good of a shooter he is?
 
hoopsjock said:
For fuck's sake man, when are you going to acknowledge that people are talking about everything that goes into being a good basketball player, not just how good of a shooter he is?
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when are you going to acknowledge that CJ is an excellent all around basketball player, and that’s why he has a 9 digit salary?

of course Kobe’s last game was a good game, if you don’t think it was you’re lost.
 
Blazers1977 said:
when are you going to acknowledge that CJ is an excellent all around basketball player, and that’s why he has a 9 digit salary?

of course Kobe’s last game was a good game, if you don’t think it was you’re lost.
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Okay man, now I know you're trolling. Excellent all around basketball player???? Give me a break.
 
Blazers1977 said:
when are you going to acknowledge that CJ is an excellent all around basketball player, and that’s why he has a 9 digit salary?

of course Kobe’s last game was a good game, if you don’t think it was you’re lost.
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Is CJ a more well-rounded basketball player than any of us? Almost 100% sure that's true. On an NBA level though (which is what we're all going by), he is a volume scorer. That doesn't make him bad necessarily he gets that volume because he can make shots even a lot of NBA players can't make. However, he is also not very "good" when compared to other NBA players at anything other than scoring. What metric out there says differently?

I've made the argument that I think he would be a better "all-round" player given he was running a team. When he has played the 1 (either Dame's out, or when they're staggered), he plays much different than when he plays with Dame. When he plays without Dame he seems a much more willing passer IMO.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
Is CJ a more well-rounded basketball player than any of us? Almost 100% sure that's true. On an NBA level though (which is what we're all going by), he is a volume scorer. That doesn't make him bad necessarily he gets that volume because he can make shots even a lot of NBA players can't make. However, he is also not very "good" when compared to other NBA players at anything other than scoring. What metric out there says differently?

I've made the argument that I think he would be a better "all-round" player given he was running a team. When he has played the 1 (either Dame's out, or when they're staggered), he plays much different than when he plays with Dame. When he plays without Dame he seems a much more willing passer IMO.
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scoring is the most important part of the game, and CJ is elite at scoring.

he doesn’t pass as much when Dame is on the floor specifically because Dame will take a play off by having CJ go to an ISO or pick and roll.
 
Blazers1977 said:
when are you going to acknowledge that CJ is an excellent all around basketball player, and that’s why he has a 9 digit salary?

of course Kobe’s last game was a good game, if you don’t think it was you’re lost.
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All around? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah. The only time hes all around is when he dribbles the damn basketball all around and jacks up horrible shots.

Never call CJ an all around player. He is one of the most selfish players.
 
Blazers1977 said:
scoring is the most important part of the game, and CJ is elite at scoring.

he doesn’t pass as much when Dame is on the floor specifically because Dame will take a play off by having CJ go to an ISO or pick and roll.
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OPBM last year has him around 30th. Which is good no doubt. This year he's been off, but I assume we'll see his shot to fall. Most of the time guys don't enter their prime and forget how to shoot.

Like I said I think there is something to that when he plays with Dame he believes whether it's coached or not that his job is to get shots up. However I'd still like to see some metric if it's out there that says he has an excellent all-round game, I have not seen it. The problem is perspective. I don't think a single person on this forum wants to see CJ or the Blazers fail, if CJ is successful, efficient, plays good defense, makes the right basketball play, that is good for the Blazers, that will lead to wins. I don't believe anyone is "attacking" him because they think he is a "bad guy", or they just don't like him. They feel like he is an obstacle at times to winning games. Which I would agree sometimes he is, not always. Just like with Dame he can play a very good game and they can still lose. I think with Stotts and with CJ at times the saying familiarity breeds contempt proves itself to be true. Do they have their issue's yes, but it is exacerbated by the fact that we've seen those same "issues" for years and many feel that they haven't gotten better.
 
Blazers1977 said:
CJ is elite at scoring
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no matter how many times you say it, it still won't be true. He's not an elite scorer, and his numbers make that obvious

I'd wonder if he's even an elite shooter

let's try career 3ptFG%; how does CJ rank among players who have attempted at least 500 three's? He ranks 52nd all time (.399) which kind of sounds elite, but who ranks ahead of him?

Tim Legler B.J. Armstrong Buddy Hield J.J. Redick Kelenna Azubuike José Calderón Daniel Gibson Raja Bell Wally Szczerbiak Brent Barry Otto Porter Joe Ingles Anthony Parker Luke Babbitt Allan Houston Brandon Rush James Jones Malcolm Brogdon

are we really prepared to say that all those guys were elite? Now, if you want you can narrow the criteria by increasing the standard for attempts or change it to makes. But still, I think it would come down to the definition of elite.

while CJ was 2nd in mid-range percentage last season, among players who logged 800 minutes he was 165th in 2 pt FG%. That's miles from elite. He ranked 48th in FT%. And like I said earlier, he was 143rd in eFG%, which is kind of a raw shooting number based on two's and three's. In other words, you have to toss out all kinds of shooting gauges and narrow it down to just a couple types of shots before trying to argue he's elite

TS% is a much better gauge of overall shooting efficiency than eFG% since it accounts for FT's. And of course, counting FT's is applying real-world impact of shooting. Drawing shooting fouls is an integral component of shooting, scoring, and winning games. That's one of CJ's big Achilles heels. But if guys are playing h-o-r-s-e, CJ might actually be elite. Maybe they'll add that to the all-star weekend and CJ can finally get there
 
wizenheimer said:
no matter how many times you say it, it still won't be true. He's not an elite scorer, and his numbers make that obvious

I'd wonder if he's even an elite shooter

let's try career 3ptFG%; how does CJ rank among players who have attempted at least 500 three's? He ranks 52nd all time (.399) which kind of sounds elite, but who ranks ahead of him?

Tim Legler B.J. Armstrong Buddy Hield J.J. Redick Kelenna Azubuike José Calderón Daniel Gibson Raja Bell Wally Szczerbiak Brent Barry Otto Porter Joe Ingles Anthony Parker Luke Babbitt Allan Houston Brandon Rush James Jones Malcolm Brogdon

are we really prepared to say that all those guys were elite? Now, if you want you can narrow the criteria by increasing the standard for attempts or change it to makes. But still, I think it would come down to the definition of elite.

while CJ was 2nd in mid-range percentage last season, among players who logged 800 minutes he was 165th in 2 pt FG%. That's miles from elite. He ranked 48th in FT%. And like I said earlier, he was 143rd in eFG%, which is kind of a raw shooting number based on two's and three's. In other words, you have to toss out all kinds of shooting gauges and narrow it down to just a couple types of shots before trying to argue he's elite

TS% is a much better gauge of overall shooting efficiency than eFG% since it accounts for FT's. And of course, counting FT's is applying real-world impact of shooting. Drawing shooting fouls is an integral component of shooting, scoring, and winning games. That's one of CJ's big Achilles heels. But if guys are playing h-o-r-s-e, CJ might actually be elite. Maybe they'll add that to the all-star weekend and CJ can finally get there
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you still haven’t explained why he got a 9 digit salary if he’s not elite.
 
Strenuus said:
Look who is our GM.

/argument
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Less than a month after joining the Trail Blazers, Olshey drafted Damian Lillard, the fourth unanimous NBA Rookie of the Year in league history.

the Trail Blazers have made the postseason in six consecutive seasons under Olshey.

In 2017-18, the Trail Blazers finished third in the Western Conference with a 49-33 record, a Northwest Division title and a fifth consecutive trip to the postseason with the NBA’s second-youngest roster.

After making the playoffs with the league’s youngest roster in 2016-17, Olshey executed a draft day trade on June 22, 2017 to acquire Zach Collins (10th overall pick).

Olshey made the trade deadline move during the 2016-17 season to acquire center Jusuf Nurkic

The Trail Blazers advanced to the Western Conference Semifinals in 2015-16 after defeating the LA Clippers in the first round, despite not returning four of five starters from the previous year and possessing the third-youngest roster in the league. It was the third straight trip to the playoffs under the direction of Olshey, who was runner-up for the 2015-16 NBA Executive of the Year Award. McCollum, whom Olshey drafted with the 10th overall pick in 2014, won the NBA’s Most Improved Player Award that season.

Division champions for the first time since 1998-99 in 2014-15, the Trail Blazers put together consecutive 50-win seasons for just the fifth time in franchise history from 2013-14 to 2014-15.

Olshey finished third in 2013-14 NBA Executive of the Year voting after the Trail Blazers posted a 54-28 record, marking the largest improvement in franchise history and the sixth-best record all-time. Portland won its first playoff series in 14 seasons

Olshey came to Portland from the Clippers, where he served as the team’s Vice President of Basketball Operations for two seasons. Placing third in votes for the 2011-12 NBA Executive of the Year Award

Under Olshey’s direction, the Clippers transitioned into a playoff team in 2011-12 after he assembled one of the deepest rosters in the NBA

seems pretty good to me.
 
Blazers Roy said:
What do you mean by "if" ?
In case you dump CJ, Simons will be instructed to take a lot of shots just like CJ and he will be getting the defensive attention CJ gets now ,so it's save to assume history will repeat itself.
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Did you read at all the post I linked ??
Right now Ant and CJ's game are different. In addition to that what I linked I've seen Ant be a more willing to make the extra pass to an open man, and make some very nice passes occasionally so I'm confident playmaking will be more and more a part of his game as he improves in the NBA.

Now if he starts running in circles for 20s and jacking shots 1 on 3 people will complain about him the same way they complain about CJ
 
SIeepwalker said:
Did you read at all the post I linked ??
Right now Ant and CJ's game are different. In addition to that what I linked I've seen Ant be a more willing to make the extra pass to an open man, and make some very nice passes occasionally so I'm confident playmaking will be more and more a part of his game as he improves in the NBA.

Now if he starts running in circles for 20s and jacking shots 1 on 3 people will complain about him the same way they complain about CJ
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You linked the wrong post...
Anyway, you people exaggerate whatever CJ is doing.
He's dribbling the ball to create space for his shot.
He doesnt shoot on 3 people he just tries to get the call when he goes in, but he never gets the whistle.

When it will be on Simons shoulders to create baskets out of thin air, when it will be his job to bail Stotts out - then i will see how you guys react to his new style.
 
IMO this is a season when some very realistic CJ trades are available as other teams need a player like him, the two most obvious are for Philly and Tobias Harris or Orlando and Aaron Gordo, I prefer the Gordon trade due to his significant lower salary than Harris. Since a trade with CJ cant be done until late Jan we can evaluate if ANT is really ready to step in, as several have said the HUGE Q is whether Olshey would actually trade CJ? IMO this is the season to do it
 
Blazers Roy said:
You linked the wrong post...
Anyway, you people exaggerate whatever CJ is doing.
He's dribbling the ball to create space for his shot.
He doesnt shoot on 3 people he just tries to get the call when he goes in, but he never gets the whistle.

When it will be on Simons shoulders to create baskets out of thin air, when it will be his job to bail Stotts out - then i will see how you guys react to his new style.
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It's not an exaggeration. CJ's assist percentage has gone down every year without his usage rate changing much. So my problem is that he's shown to be a decent passer in the past but has done it less and less each year. I'm hoping he learns from last game the value of him creating for others.
 
Blazers1977 said:
anayltics are for people who don’t play or know anything about basketball. CJ is an elite scorer, ask anyone on the blazers team or coaching staff.

people said the same thing about Kobe. It’s always been an invalid insult. Jump shooters always have lower efficiency precisely bc they are jump shooters i.e. the player the team goes to when they can’t find a better shot. The team purposely gives Kobe and CJ the hardest shots, bc they make them the most often.
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Lol...couldn't be more incorrect on that first part. So much so, further discussion would likely be pointless. @BonesJones , you can't use anaytics either or else you know nothing and didn't play. :cheers:
 
Blazinaway said:
IMO this is a season when some very realistic CJ trades are available as other teams need a player like him, the two most obvious are for Philly and Tobias Harris or Orlando and Aaron Gordo, I prefer the Gordon trade due to his significant lower salary than Harris. Since a trade with CJ cant be done until late Jan we can evaluate if ANT is really ready to step in, as several have said the HUGE Q is whether Olshey would actually trade CJ? IMO this is the season to do it
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both of those trades are dog shit and if you think Ant is ready to fill the shoes of CJ you simply don’t understand playoff basketball.
 
Blazers1977 said:
anayltics are for people who don’t play or know anything about basketball. CJ is an elite scorer, ask anyone on the blazers team or coaching staff.

people said the same thing about Kobe. It’s always been an invalid insult. Jump shooters always have lower efficiency precisely bc they are jump shooters i.e. the player the team goes to when they can’t find a better shot. The team purposely gives Kobe and CJ the hardest shots, bc they make them the most often.
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I played college basketball. I think analytics are useful, therefore I use them. Quit being ridiculous.

Teams also dont "purposefully" assign hard shots. The goal is to get good shots, not hard ones.
 
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TBpup said:
Lol...couldn't be more incorrect on that first part. So much so, further discussion would likely be pointless. @BonesJones , you can't use anaytics either or else you know nothing and didn't play. :cheers:
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Fuck dude, my past would get erased? Just like that? My knowledge too?! Thank God this Blazer1977 guy warned me before it was too late!!
 
hoopsjock said:
It's not an exaggeration. CJ's assist percentage has gone down every year without his usage rate changing much. So my problem is that he's shown to be a decent passer in the past but has done it less and less each year. I'm hoping he learns from last game the value of him creating for others.
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Assist numbers are part-bullshit by nature, it depends on the other player making the shot and having good players around you.

In our system players are rarely open, everyone stands around while being guarded by their man, waiting for a pick and roll play or an iso.
 
Blazers Roy said:
Assist numbers are part-bullshit by nature, it depends on the other player making the shot and having good players around you.

In our system players are rarely open, everyone stands around while being guarded by their man, waiting for a pick and roll play or an iso.
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Sorry but............

1) Same system/coach

2) This is the 1st year with drastically different players than the year he posted his career high AST% so players not hitting shots isn't a valid excuse the other 3 years.

3) You know people keep track of stuff like dribbles and passes whether they lead to assists or not, right?
 
I think the problem for me is that I like shooting guards like Ray Allen or Reggie Miller. Someone like Klay Thompson fits that mold.

CJ is a shittier version of Brandon Roy. And you can have a Brandon Roy type shooting guard, but it's tough when you have a point guard like Dame who needs the ball in his hands. I think the ideal pairing is either a Dame with a Ray Allen, or a Brandon Roy with a spot up shooter point guard like Steve Blake (although someone better than Blake). Philly had a great backcourt with Eric Snow and Allen Iverson. Snow was a bigger point guard who played solid defense and AI was the ball dominant scorer.
 
hoopsjock said:
Sorry but............

1) Same system/coach

2) This is the 1st year with drastically different players than the year he posted his career high AST% so players not hitting shots isn't a valid excuse the other 3 years.

3) You know people keep track of stuff like dribbles and passes whether they lead to assists or not, right?
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Doesn't mean anything. His teammates are hitting shots or not?
People here are talking about his assist numbers. Show me a stat of his passes for other people to shoot and then we'll talk about that.
 
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