Jason Collins you ****ing idiot!!

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[quote name='peg182']</p>

[quote name='ghoti']</p>

[quote name='peg182']</p>

[quote name='ghoti']</p>

Collins played a lot better in this game than Boki Nachbar.</p>

How come nobody starts threads about his crappy play?</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

</p>

Boki picked it up in the 2nd half. And he didn't directly cost the game for us.</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

He sucked.</p>

In fact, his defense is so bad, he's starting to become a detriment every time he plays.</p>

I am disappointed that he hasn't shown any improvemnet.</p>

</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

</p>

Actually, I'm pretty surprised you didn't bring up Krstic. He was just as much of a reason for the loss as Collins. Is everyone giving him a free pass because he's recovering from injury?</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

Yeah. I sort of am.</p>

If he's still this slow in January, it'll be a huge problem.</p>

They need him to be the old Nenad for them to be as scary as they can be.</p>

</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

I'm giving him a free pass because he didn't draw up a play giving him a fadeaway buzzer beater, and he had a double double tonight.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

2 missed free throws..?</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peg182)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

I'm giving him a free pass because he didn't draw up a play giving him a fadeaway buzzer beater, and he had a double double tonight.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

2 missed free throws..?</p>

</div></p>

It was unfortuante at the time, but I think weighing it differently is a bit biased. Had he scored 10 pts and then made both of those we would have been in the same situation. If anything I'd be happy that Krstic made a significant step forward to getting back to 100%</p>

</p>
 
If the Nets could win celtics next game, then I could forget this loss.</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Collins played a lot better in this game than Boki Nachbar.</p>

How come nobody starts threads about his crappy play?</p>

</div></p>

Or Malik Allen. Nachbar was 2-6 with 5 turnovers. Collins was 0-0 with 1 turnover and a steal. Malik was 1-4 in 20 minutes with zeros across the board. Armstrong once again had just one assist, although one turnover which is an improvement. Collins was stripped of the ball, and for that he gets everyone's anger? If you watch it again, you'll see that Kidd was standing right next to him, and it seemed as though Collins wasn't sure whether to hand him the ball. It seemed like there was a miscommunication.</p>

One thing that no one realises, or notices, is that Collins is the quarterback on defense--he shouts out instructions to everyone, especially when he switches on defense. Watch, you can see him twist his head and his mouth moving ALL THE TIME. There's a reason why the Nets play pretty good defense when he's in the game. Also, there's a reason why the Nets are an above-average rebounding team when he's in the game, despite Collins individually being a below-average rebounder.</p>

You could have all the talented players in the world and the team could suck because they don't know how to play together. Look at, for instance, Charlotte and Atlanta for the last few years. Collins helps make the Nets an above-average team. Of course he's not a complete player--few players are--but with Collins, he's either great at something or terrible at something, which to me suggests that you should be able to maximize his positives and minimize his negatives if you surround him with the right players on the court. To me, that does NOT include Krstic, but may very well be Sean Williams. Williams would be a monster playing next to Collins, I believe.</p>

You all unfairly heap all the blame on Collins when the team isn't playing well or doesn't win. You are all pathetic.</p>

</div></p>

You seem upset.</p>

One thing I did notice tonight was him talking to the group during a timeout. I get the feeling he understands the game very very well.</p>

</p>

</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Darwincook)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

I thought Collins played pretty well in this game.</p>

It was Williams' absence that cost the Nets, not Collins' presence.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

When you say played well, you mean according to Collins' previous standards, right? A couple of offensive rebounds doesn't make up for getting stripped and fouling a 3 point shooter. That sequence sums up his horrid career. I do agree it's Franks' fault for having him out there. Frank better put this game on himself in the postgame interview. But he probably won't.</div></p>

All Collins supporters seem to judge him by some unfathomable low standard. That's why he does so "well" in some eyes. Kidd grabs a rebound instead of being able to release on the break (thus more wear and tear on legs) and Collins who's seven feet tall gets praised for "boxing out". He makes a decent handoff and all of a sudden he's passing like A. Sabonis (sp?). He makes a pick and you'd think he was working the pick and roll like Stockton and Malone. He occasionally holds down an opposing player on defense. And meanwhile that player becomes a defensive ace. Shoots free throws with some of the best centers to ever play 'tho; like Shaq and Wilt.</p>

Oh. Then come the statistics and theories and how without him, we wouldn't/couldn't win. But watching the guy, I cringe wondering how much more we could win.</p>

I just don't get how anyone thinks this guy is all that.</p>

And PS I remember Darwin Cook. He filled in admirably when the Netsies would lose a guard (which seemed quite often back in the 80s). Underrated player.</p>

</p>

</p>
 
I can't believe there are guys in here defending him. I'm not blaming him for the loss but he completely fucked us over yesterday. I don't even mind the strip as much because that could have happened with half our bigs but why foul Mo Pete? Also if your feeling pressure and confussion why not call a quick timeout?</p>

I said this yesterday this loss is on Frank but Collins deserves a lot of blame too.</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GM3)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

I can't believe there are guys in here defending him. I'm not blaming him for the loss but he completely fucked us over yesterday. I don't even mind the strip as much because that could have happened with half our bigs but why foul Mo Pete? Also if your feeling pressure and confussion why not call a quick timeout?</p>

I said this yesterday this loss is on Frank but Collins deserves a lot of blame too.</p>

</div></p>

if you are referring to me, im saying that Collins was not the only reason we lost(in fact i mostly blame frank for this loss).</p>

</p>

Collins made a bad play, but he isnt the sole nor the biggest reason as to why we lost the game.</p>

</p>

Boki sucked defensively and his shot was nowhere to be found, Allen sucked with zeroes across the board and going 1 out of 4 from the field, Collins made a very bad play in the 4th, Wright attacked but struggled, Frank made boneheaded decisions by subbing out Williams and then playing Allen instead of Magloire, and it goes on and on. Yes i think much blame should go on Collins because his foul on MoPete really helped the Hornets, but I also think that most of it should be on Frank, who pretty muched fucked up for the entire game as opposed to Collin's one play.</p>

</p>

</p>

</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GM3)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

I can't believe there are guys in here defending him. I'm not blaming him for the loss but he completely fucked us over yesterday. I don't even mind the strip as much because that could have happened with half our bigs but why foul Mo Pete? Also if your feeling pressure and confussion why not call a quick timeout?</p>

I said this yesterday this loss is on Frank but Collins deserves a lot of blame too.</p>

</div></p>

if you are referring to me, im saying that Collins was not the only reason we lost(in fact i mostly blame frank for this loss).</p>

</p>

Collins made a bad play, but he isnt the sole nor the biggest reason as to why we lost the game.</p>

</p>

Boki sucked defensively and his shot was nowhere to be found, Allen sucked with zeroes across the board and going 1 out of 4 from the field, Collins made a very bad play in the 4th, Wright attacked but struggled, Frank made boneheaded decisions by subbing out Williams and then playing Allen instead of Magloire, and it goes on and on. Yes i think much blame should go on Collins because his foul on MoPete really helped the Hornets, but I also think that most of it should be on Frank, who pretty muched fucked up for the entire game as opposed to Collin's one play.</p>

</div></p>

I think the rotation and the fact that they had a big late lead on an excellent team were big plusses for Frank.</p>

Here's a game without Carter where they played Antoine Wright 41 minutes and had some terrible games by the bench players and they lost late on some really boneheaded mistakes and some bad breaks.</p>

(Heck, he even held Kidd to 36 minutes, appeasing my constant complaints about Kidd playing too much. He must have been tempted to play him the whole game.)</p>

The only thing I blame Frank for is not leaving in Williams when it was so obvious the Hornets could not play their offense at all with him in there.</p>

And even though he could have easily pointed out players who cost the Nets what should have been a victory, he said that his mistake was the one that cost the team the game - even though he had a legitimate reason for letting his starters play the end of the game.</p>

</p>

</p>
 
ow can anyone defend him is beyond me. David West scored a big bucket over him to tie it up or take the lead late. We need him to rebound, I don't understand why some of you are content with him sucking. He plays ok defense but let's get things straight, Thorn two years ago said he wanted Collins to rebound better and boxing out may be a nice regular season thing but rebounding has killed the Nets in the playoffs for two years now. He wouldn't start for any other team in this league but his defense is overvalued due to our bad frontcourt.</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Collins played a lot better in this game than Boki Nachbar.</p>

How come nobody starts threads about his crappy play?</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Well, boki hit two shots in the third and didn't make a really dumb error that led to a momentum shift and a 4 pt. play.</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Collins played a lot better in this game than Boki Nachbar.</p>

How come nobody starts threads about his crappy play?</p>

</div></p>

</p>

</div></p>

Boki didn't help but he did hit two shots in the third and did make a nice pass to Swat. Collins made a game costing error by not keeping the ball in the air after a rare rebound and got it stripped which led to a momentum shift and a 4 pt. play. All I was thinking about wa show Magloire would have nailed Paul in the the head after the rebound while Stff gets it stripped.</p>

</p>

</p>
 
lol, quote from the Stiff</p>

"I tried to make up for a mistake, and ended up making another mistake," Collins said</p>

</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Collins played a lot better in this game than Boki Nachbar.</p>

How come nobody starts threads about his crappy play?</p>

</div></p>

</p>

</div></p>

Boki didn't help but he did hit two shots in the third and did make a nice pass to Swat. Collins made a game costing error by not keeping the ball in the air after a rare rebound and got it stripped which led to a momentum shift and a 4 pt. play. All I was thinking about wa show Magloire would have nailed Paul in the the head after the rebound while Stff gets it stripped.</p>

</p>

</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Haha, yes. If Magloire was grabbing that rebound, and CP3 were there trying to strip that, Magloire would have made his nose bleeding.</p>
 
If you are so irate over one short sequence of plays, then why not be angry at Nachbar, Malik Allen, Krstic, or Magloire? Whether you like it or not, Collins is still outplaying them. You are just angry because Collins' mistakes yesterday happened during a crucial time of the game, but a mistake is a mistake. Let's forget about defense for a minute (although we all know that Collins is superior, much superior, than the other guys I just mentioned). For the season, Nachbarhas made 21 field goals and committed 15 turnovers, an awful ratio. He has missed 37 field goal attempts. He has one offensive rebound, two steals, three blocks, and has committed 18 fouls. Essentially, he has given the ball to the opposition 47 times (assuming that the Nets gain possession after each block, which isn't realistic), and scored just 58 points. He has been a net negative.</p>

Malik Allen has been a little better because he has only committed four turnovers. Still, he is 9-27 from the field, has grabbed just5 offensive rebounds, has one steal and one block. Still, the fact that he hasn't even attempted a free throw means that hehas given the ball to the opposition 15 times, and scored just 18 points--still a net negative.</p>

Magloireis 2-17 from the field and has committed 8 turnovers. He has 8 offensive rebounds, zero steals, and four blocks. Thus, he has given the ball to the opposition 11 times and sored just 12 points. He's a net negative as well.</p>

Krstic is 24-61 from the field,has committed six tuirnovers, has 10 offesnive rebounds, no steals, and three blocks. Thus, he has goven the ball to the opposition 30 times and has scored 51 points--he's the best of the bunch.</p>

Collins is 1-5 from the field, has 9 offensive rebounds, has a steal, a block, and 7 turnvoers. Thus, he is actuallyneutral when it comes to possessions.</p>
 
Collins made a crucial turnover, that's well said.</p>

If he had notmadethat turnover, we would be a winner now.</p>

If Nachbar had made that turnover, we would have still bashed him, too.</p>

But Collins.. SUCKS SUCKS SUCKS !</p>
 
This is funny. Just admit it, Collins made a boneheaded mistake at the end of the game.</p>

Boki made some good plays in the 3rd, picked up his play after the half. Malik Allen played like shit the whole game. Magloire didn't play at all.</p>

Meanwhile, Krstic is picking up his play. A double double is damn good if you ask me.</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

ow can anyone defend him is beyond me. David West scored a big bucket over him to tie it up or take the lead late. We need him to rebound, I don't understand why some of you are content with him sucking. He plays ok defense but let's get things straight, Thorn two years ago said he wanted Collins to rebound better and boxing out may be a nice regular season thing but rebounding has killed the Nets in the playoffs for two years now. He wouldn't start for any other team in this league but his defense is overvalued due to our bad frontcourt.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Kind of difficult to when one is ignoring the faults of others and pointing out only one player.</p>

</p>

And yes, he made a huge mistake which was a big reason why we lost, but im saying do not forget that there were other faults which led to our loss, and i think Dumpy sums it up perfectly.</p>

</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Dumpy, please stop.</p>

</div></p>

Stop what? Giving stats to the argument?</p>

</p>
 
No Dumpy should deffinitely continue. I think whether you have good or bad feelings toward collins its important to see that his actions in this game shouldn't be made to make broad statements that make you blind to his positives.</p>

Do I want Collins out of here? Yeah, but I'd rather keep him for a 6th of what he makes now.</p>

Do I think Collins brings good things to this team? Yes, thats why I would eventually want to see a Krstic Williams line up, but submitted this idea a couple of days ago with the stipulation that Sean was not ready to start without Collins.</p>

Do I think Collins sucked against the Hornets? Yes. There were a couple of factors that lead to us losing, directly. This was one of the big ones.</p>

Do I still think that Collins brings good things to this team? Yes.</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Dumpy, please stop.</p>

</div></p>

Stop what? Giving stats to the argument?</p>

</p>

</div></p>

Stop contradicting Jizzy. That's Jizzy's job! (couldn't find the angel smiley)</p>

</p>
 
[quote name='jarkid']

[quote name='Jizzy']</p>

[quote name='Jizzy']</p>

[quote name='ghoti']</p>

Collins played a lot better in this game than Boki Nachbar.</p>

How come nobody starts threads about his crappy play?</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

Boki didn't help but he did hit two shots in the third and did make a nice pass to Swat. Collins made a game costing error by not keeping the ball in the air after a rare rebound and got it stripped which led to a momentum shift and a 4 pt. play. All I was thinking about wa show Magloire would have nailed Paul in the the head after the rebound while Stff gets it stripped.</p>

</p>

</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

</p>

Haha, yes. If Magloire was grabbing that rebound, and CP3 were there trying to strip that, Magloire would have made his nose bleeding.</p>[/QUOTE]

</p>
That made me laugh.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

If you are so irate over one short sequence of plays, then why not be angry at Nachbar, Malik Allen, Krstic, or Magloire? Whether you like it or not, Collins is still outplaying them. You are just angry because Collins' mistakes yesterday happened during a crucial time of the game, but a mistake is a mistake. Let's forget about defense for a minute (although we all know that Collins is superior, much superior, than the other guys I just mentioned). For the season, Nachbarhas made 21 field goals and committed 15 turnovers, an awful ratio. He has missed 37 field goal attempts. He has one offensive rebound, two steals, three blocks, and has committed 18 fouls. Essentially, he has given the ball to the opposition 47 times (assuming that the Nets gain possession after each block, which isn't realistic), and scored just 58 points. He has been a net negative.</p>

Malik Allen has been a little better because he has only committed four turnovers. Still, he is 9-27 from the field, has grabbed just5 offensive rebounds, has one steal and one block. Still, the fact that he hasn't even attempted a free throw means that hehas given the ball to the opposition 15 times, and scored just 18 points--still a net negative.</p>

Magloireis 2-17 from the field and has committed 8 turnovers. He has 8 offensive rebounds, zero steals, and four blocks. Thus, he has given the ball to the opposition 11 times and sored just 12 points. He's a net negative as well.</p>

Krstic is 24-61 from the field,has committed six tuirnovers, has 10 offesnive rebounds, no steals, and three blocks. Thus, he has goven the ball to the opposition 30 times and has scored 51 points--he's the best of the bunch.</p>

Collins is 1-5 from the field, has 9 offensive rebounds, has a steal, a block, and 7 turnvoers. Thus, he is actuallyneutral when it comes to possessions.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

</p>

But Dumpy, why are you bringing up Boki, Allen and Magloire when neither of them made a game costing mistake at the end? That's all I got to say because, yes, our frontcourt is horrible but Collins adds to that.</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Dumpy, please stop.</p>

</div></p>

Stop what? Giving stats to the argument?</p>

</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Stats? Am I supposed to be impressed by Twin shooting a whopping 20% from the field? Or his 3 rpg? Using the rest of our sorry frontcourt doesn't give Collins an excuse.</p>
 
So you are saying that you will forgive bad play so long as it is not in the last five minutes of the game?</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

So you are saying that you will forgive bad play so long as it is not in the last five minutes of the game?</p>

</div></p>

No.</p>

</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Stats? Am I supposed to be impressed by Twin shooting a whopping 20% from the field? Or his 3 rpg? Using the rest of our sorry frontcourt doesn't give Collins an excuse.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Twin has missed four shots.</p>

He's very good at some things and terrible at other things. There are two options when it comes to Twin: (1) Never play him (either bench, trade, or waive him), or (2) create conditions on the court that maximize his stregnths and minimize his weaknesses. Regardless of what any of us want or don't want, option (1) will never happen, so let's just not discuss it. As for option (2), I believe that Twin is best used playing with a strong rebounding post player in the front court. One of his stregnths is that he makes it easier for his teamamtes to get rebounds, so he should have a frontcourt partner that can actually rebound (note that the Collins-Cliff Robinson combo was pretty terrible the last two years). I also believe that Twin is best used with the starting unit, but if Wright continues to shoot well, and if Nachbar ever becomes untracked, I could change my view on that. So, we need to find a frontcurt partner for Twin that is both strong rebounder and someone who would probably mesh well with Jason Kidd. The answer appears to be obvious. It would NOT be Krstic. The problem with bringing Krstic in off the bench, though, is that a frontcourt of Krstic-Boki would probably be pretty bad.</p>
 
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