JFK

[Denny Crane]

I thought it was hilarious that since he was a Navy man the Navy insisted on doing the autopsy when they weren't trained to do criminal investigative autopsies.

Maybe the one guy with 47 years experience is too old to understand how the science works anymore?

 

[jlprk]

He almost certainly acted alone. Every reputable investigation of the case has come to that conclusion.

The most reputable study was by Congress, which concluded Oswald did not act alone. Many other reputable studies said the same.

 

[Sinobas]

The 2nd gunman theory was deduced from the recording of a motorcycle cop's open mic. The recording was so noisy it is dubious that you could tell if there was the supposed gunshot.

That was discussed in the Nova program.

These were forensic scientists. Highly trained to look at all the evidence there is.

Honestly, the open mic thing alone is not a very compelling piece of evidence for me.

One thing to keep in mind is that Oswald never had his trial. JFKs limo was immediatly strip cleaned so we can't look at that evidence, and the autopsy notes were burned. One piece of evidence we do have is the "magic bullet" that supposedly rendered all of those wounds to Kennedy and Connely, and it looks like it was fired into a hundred pillows. It was clearly a planted piece of evidence. Let's get real here.

We also have JFKs jacket, showing an entry near his right shoulder blade. I"ve seen those vids where they position the men in such a way as to get all those points lined up, but it doesn't match the zapruder film, and the point of entry doesn't match JFKs jacket.

Also, Oswald's first show would have missed 30 feet high and 40 feet wide in order to land by James Teague, then he gets the last shot dead on, and in the time given, he wouldn't have much time to aim. It was a POS rifle with a defective scope.

Anyway, I know Im not going to change anyone's mind here but to me this is one of the most obvious conspiracy theories ever....

 

[Denny Crane]

See? You throw out "facts" that are trivial to debunk, but because there are so many of them to debunk, the conspiracy must be true.

For example:

The autopsy notes weren't burned. The investigators on the NOVA program examined those notes. They examined JFK's clothing. They said the photos taken during the autopsy were stunning in their graphic detail compared to what we typically see in the public domain.

It wasn't a POS rifle with a POS scope. It was an Italian military rifle and the bullets were full metal jacket. In fact, the bullets were designed to work with the gun to come out of the barrel straighter than for most guns. Oswald practiced a lot with the gun to be accurate beforehand.

The pristine bullet? They fired one of those bullets through 3 feet thick pine boards and it came out "pristine." The bullet wasn't pristine, in any case. It tumbled after passing through Kennedy and hit Connally and got squashed as it passed through him.

 

[Denny Crane]

On the Nova program, they showed pictures of JFK's and Connally's clothing. If you notice, the bullet hole in JFK's jacket is round, because the bullet started tumbling after it left his body. The bullet hole in Connally's shirt is length-wise bullet shaped, because the bullet hit him as it was tumbling. They showed the bullets did tumble after being shot through things that emulated bone and muscle on the test range, using 10000 fps cameras and so on.

 

[Denny Crane]

Found this on WikiPedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_rifle

Skeptics have argued that expert marksmen could not duplicate Oswald's alleged feat in their first try during re-enactments by the Warren Commission (1964) and CBS (1967). In those tests the marksmen attempted to hit the target three times within 5.6 seconds. This time span has been heavily disputed. The Warren Commission itself estimated that the time span between the two shots that hit President Kennedy was 4.8 to 5.6 seconds. If the second shot missed (assuming the first and third shots hit the president), then 4.8 to 5.6 seconds was the total time span of the shots. If the first or third shot missed, that would give a minimum time of 7.1 to 7.9 seconds for the three shots.[60] Modern analysis of a digitally enhanced Zapruder film suggests that the first, second, and final shot may have taken 8.3 seconds.

Many of CBS's 11 volunteer marksmen, who (unlike Oswald) had no prior experience with a properly "sighted" Carcano, were able to hit the test target two times in under the time allowed. The only man who scored three hits was a firearms examiner from Maryland by the name of Howard Donahue.

 

[Sinobas]

It's been noted in a few military history books how it didn't perform very well in combat compared to the rifles of other nations. The Italian goverment wanted to replace it for inadequate performance, but it stayed in use because it was cheap. But anyway, this is not definitive either way, but it was a bolt action rifle.

It would be extremely difficult to even be able to fire off 3 shots in the allotted time, and the 1st shot would be the one that was aimed, the 2nd and 3rd would just be load and shoot. But if it had coming from the book depository, the 1st bullet missed ridiculously high and wide, and the third shot was dead on, fired on a moving target through foiliage.


This is the bullet that supposedly caused all those wounds. It would be much more deformed if it had caused all those wounds the official story claims it does.

 

[Sinobas]

I've seen vids where they line up JFK and Connelly in such a way that you can draw a straight line through all their wounds. Now this idea the bullet went through this line while tumbling is ridiculous beyond belief. Have you thought about what you're saying here?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

It's been noted in a few military history books how it didn't perform very well in combat compared to the rifles of other nations. The Italian goverment wanted to replace it for inadequate performance, but it stayed in use because it was cheap. But anyway, this is not definitive either way, but it was a bolt action rifle.

It would be extremely difficult to even be able to fire off 3 shots in the allotted time, and the 1st shot would be the one that was aimed, the 2nd and 3rd would just be load and shoot. But if it had coming from the book depository, the 1st bullet missed ridiculously high and wide, and the third shot was dead on, fired on a moving target through foiliage.


This is the bullet that supposedly caused all those wounds. It would be much more deformed if it had caused all those wounds the official story claims it does.

Watch the Nova special. It was pretty cool. They took an honest look at all of that. I'm not saying it will change your mind. I don't care if it does or not but it goes into great depth on the magic bullet. You would like it.

 

[Denny Crane]

I've seen vids where they line up JFK and Connelly in such a way that you can draw a straight line through all their wounds. Now this idea the bullet went through this line while tumbling is ridiculous beyond belief. Have you thought about what you're saying here?

Yeah, I thought about what I'm saying here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-bullet_theory

At the time of the autopsy, toward the end of the procedure, initial probing of the shoulder wound suggested the bullet entered the base of Kennedy's neck at a 45 to 60 degree angle. However, this angle is precluded by geometry since the shooter, to obtain such a steep angle, would have to be standing on the back of the limousine or from a higher position at the Texas School Book Depository (indeed, much higher than the roof of this seven-story structure). The bullet is believed to have been fired from the sixth floor [~60 feet up] of the Texas Book Depository and traveled horizontally ~200 feet at ~16 degree angle [arctan(60/200)]. The street sloped at 3° 9' away from the Depository,[60] making a total angle of about 19 degrees. However, a bullet entering the President's back at the location shown in the preceding autopsy photograph about 1.5 inches below the collar line, passing over the top of the right lung, and exiting at the throat tracheostomy incision wound in the President, as theorized in the single-bullet theory of the Warren Report, could have caused all of the damage to Kennedy and John Connally.

The weight of bullet CE399 was reported in the Warren Commission Report as 158.6 grains (10.28 grams). It was found that the weight of a single, unfired bullet ranged from 159.8 to 161.5 grains with an average weight of 160.844 grains.[61] The lead fragments retrieved from Connally's wounds in the wrist (there were no fragments in the chest)[62] weighed about 2 grains (130 milligrams).

Trajectory of CE399 according to modern analysis. Note relative positions of seats.

Trajectory of CE399 according to some critics. Trajectories such as this one gave rise to the term "magic bullet."

 

[Sinobas]

That's another good point Denny, they recovered fragments of bullet from Connelly so where were those missing chunks from the bullet? A bullet could not tumble through in a straight line through all that bone and flesh and come out looking like that.

I don't agree that it would have been impossible for Oswald to hit Kenndy from that window, but keep in mind the last shot was through trees. The more important evidence for me is the eye witnesses, the doctors at Parkland hospital, and investigating the people involved in the event. There's a lot more to it than just the shooting.

Ed Hoffman, a deaf mute, actually saw the gunman fire and dismantle is rifle from behind the picket fence.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

That's another good point Denny, they recovered fragments of bullet from Connelly so where were those missing chunks from the bullet? A bullet could not tumble through in a straight line through all that bone and flesh and come out looking like that.

I don't agree that it would have been impossible for Oswald to hit Kenndy from that window, but keep in mind the last shot was through trees. The more important evidence for me is the eye witnesses, the doctors at Parkland hospital, and investigating the people involved in the event. There's a lot more to it than just the shooting.

Ed Hoffman, a deaf mute, actually saw the gunman fire and dismantle is rifle from behind the picket fence.

Check out the Nova special. I provided a link to it on the first page.

 

[Sinobas]

The wound to JFKs back game about 6 inches below the collar and to the right of his spinal column. I don't think you need to be a geometry major to know the trajectory of that bullet would have had to be up to exit Kennedy's throat.

 

[Denny Crane]

[video=youtube;6lctNvwvHoY]

This video is much shorter. It's a CBS interview with the forensic scientists from the Nova show.

Sinobas,

Look at this picture again. When the bullet hit and flattened, 2 grains squirted out the bottom end like toothpaste from a tube when you squeeze it. That's consistent with what they found.

More from WikiPedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_bullet_theory

A Discovery Channel television special, Unsolved History: JFK — Beyond the Magic Bullet, attempted to replicate as well as possible the conditions of that day. The participants set up blocks of ballistics gel with a substance similar to human bone inside. These studies showed that it was possible to produce largely undeformed bullets, if they were slowed by a passage through a tissue-like substance before striking bone.

Next, two mannequin figures made of ballistic anatomical substances (animal skin, gelatin, and interior bone-like cast) were set up in the exact relative position of JFK and Connally. A marksman fired the same rifle model found in the Book Depository from a distance equal to that of the sixth floor of the Book Depository building, using a round from the same batch of Western Cartridge Company 6.5x52 mm ammunition purchased with the surplus Carcano weapon in early 1963. The path of their single bullet (followed by high speed photography) duplicated, almost exactly, the wounds suffered by the victims that day, the only difference being that the bullet did not quite have enough energy to penetrate the "thigh" substance in front of the Connally figure, because it struck an extra bone in the "rib" model (i.e., it fractured 2 ribs in the model vs. one rib in Connally). It was also slightly more deformed than CE 399, possibly for the same reason. However, this bullet came close to duplicating all wounds in both men with a single shot, with a bullet having little deformation.[75]

 

[Denny Crane]

The wound to JFKs back game about 6 inches below the collar and to the right of his spinal column. I don't think you need to be a geometry major to know the trajectory of that bullet would have had to be up to exit Kennedy's throat.

However, a bullet entering the President's back at the location shown in the preceding autopsy photograph about 1.5 inches below the collar line, passing over the top of the right lung, and exiting at the throat tracheostomy incision wound in the President, as theorized in the single-bullet theory of the Warren Report, could have caused all of the damage to Kennedy and John Connally.

The preponderance of the evidence supports the single bullet theory.

 

[Sinobas]

Let's get real here. This bullet shattered Connally's ribs and fractured a big bone in his wrist, implants in his thigh then just "falls out" and was discovered on the ground by a janitor. Bullets don't just fall out like that. A bullet would not look like that after hitting all that.

We can talk about the magic bullet all day long, but there's a bigger picture here.

And why is there so much missing evidence now? The government says the presidents brain was missing. Why was so much evidence pertaining to the case locked up in the interest of "national security"? Why was his body illegally taken and the autopsy done in secret? Why don't we have public documentation and examination of the limo, examining the holes etc?

The autopsy was performed by someone who had never done a gunshot autopsy before? Why would they chose amatures to do the autopsy on the president of the united states?

His brains were blasted out the back of his head, that's what all the doctors and witnesses report. Jackie Kennedy climbed on to the back of the vehicle to retrieve a piece of his skull. His head goes violently back and to the left at the time of the shot.

 

[Sinobas]

Take a look at Zapruder frame 230. Kennedy is obviously reacting to having been hit. He'd been hit about a second prior to this shot, so by this time, the bullet would have had to have already entered Connally's left shoulder, excited his chest, broken his wrist and be implanted in his thigh. But you see his holding his hat with his right hand, while his wrist is supposedly shattered. As you can see, they don't line up like they do in those new graphics that have come out.

 

[Sinobas]

Denny, take another look at the test bullets that were done for the Warren Commission. The ones they fired into cotton swabs are the ones that look like "the magic bullet" they fired test bullets through the rib of a goat, and through the radius bone which is the bone factured in Connally's arm, and both show marked distortion, and this magic bullet broke both of them.

 

[Denny Crane]

Watch the Nova video in the first post.

I have no vested interest in this conspiracy theory one way or the other. All I can do is watch the CSI kind of guys over and over again refute what the unqualified blogger types post.

 

[Sinobas]

Denny, take a look at those trajectory photos you posted. There are two big problems with the straight line analysis. One, see how the straight line diagram has the outside of Conally's shoulder flush with the middle of Kennedy's head. It sure does not look to me like Connally is setting so far inward relative to Kennedy. It also relies on Connally making a strong twisting motion, to get his right shoulder going left, which you can clearly see from the frame I attached, he was looking straight forward.

It's just shannanagans to get a bullet to exit from the presidents throat, going down and to the left, to enter Connallys right shoulder.

 

[Denny Crane]

The CSI guys looked at the film, too. And used lasers and 3D models to figure out how it all went down.

So far, how many things have you come up with that have been shown wrong?

It started with burning of the autopsy report, and went nowhere from there...

If you look at how the seats actually work in the car, Kennedy is sitting on a bench seat and Connally on a single seat. Connally's seat is several inches away from the door.

It also looks like that photo is taken at the airport, not at Dealy Plaza.

FWIW.

 

[Sinobas]

Compare the Nova documentary to the Zapruder film, and you'll see that the men were not doing what is depicted in order to get the shot to line up. It's just a hack job made to support the official story. Kennedy would have to be leaning really far forward BEFORE he was shot, to get the trajectory to go form his back to his throat.

Connally himself has said that he was hit by a different bullet than Kennedy. Connally's surgeon, Dr. Robert Shaw, and the nurse who attended the surgery says the pieces removed from his wrist were much bigger than what had apparantly flaked off the "magic bullet".

 

[BlazerWookee]

The CSI guys looked at the film, too. And used lasers and 3D models to figure out how it all went down.

So far, how many things have you come up with that have been shown wrong?

It started with burning of the autopsy report, and went nowhere from there...

If you look at how the seats actually work in the car, Kennedy is sitting on a bench seat and Connally on a single seat. Connally's seat is several inches away from the door.

It also looks like that photo is taken at the airport, not at Dealy Plaza.

FWIW.

Plus, Connaly's arm is touching the top of the door almost at the elbow, and the top of the door is touching closer to Kennedy's armpit than it is his elbow...

 

[Sinobas]

Kennedy may well have been a few inches to the right of Connally, but that still doesn't rescue the single bullet theory. So this is sorta like debating weather or not my dog can ride a bike by measuring to see if his feet can reach the peddles.

Constructing computer models is all well and good, but they don't mean much if they don't match what actually happened. They also fall far short of explaining the condition of the bullet, which broke Connally's rib and a large bone in the wrist.

 

[Denny Crane]

[video=youtube;PfSXkfV_mhA]

 

[Denny Crane]

Kennedy may well have been a few inches to the right of Connally, but that still doesn't rescue the single bullet theory. So this is sorta like debating weather or not my dog can ride a bike by measuring to see if his feet can reach the peddles.

Constructing computer models is all well and good, but they don't mean much if they don't match what actually happened. They also fall far short of explaining the condition of the bullet, which broke Connally's rib and a large bone in the wrist.

The condition of the bullet has already been addressed. In several reenactments, the bullet hit both "people" and came out pristine.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Compare the Nova documentary to the Zapruder film, and you'll see that the men were not doing what is depicted in order to get the shot to line up. It's just a hack job made to support the official story. Kennedy would have to be leaning really far forward BEFORE he was shot, to get the trajectory to go form his back to his throat.

Connally himself has said that he was hit by a different bullet than Kennedy. Connally's surgeon, Dr. Robert Shaw, and the nurse who attended the surgery says the pieces removed from his wrist were much bigger than what had apparantly flaked off the "magic bullet".

So you did watch the Nova special?

 

[jlprk]

Last night PBS had 2 excellent specials on the JFK assassination. The first was by Nova on the forensics of the assassination and the 2nd one was by Secrets of the Dead on Walter Cronkite's coverage that day.

You can watch both of them on PBS's website.

You should watch the Nova special, the bullets had some very unusual characteristics.

Watch the Nova special. Oswald acted alone.

http://video.pbs.org/video/2365118537/

http://video.pbs.org/video/2365118537/

http://video.pbs.org/video/2365118738/

Did you watch that Nova special?

Watch the Nova special. It was pretty cool. They took an honest look at all of that. I'm not saying it will change your mind. I don't care if it does or not but it goes into great depth on the magic bullet. You would like it.

Check out the Nova special. I provided a link to it on the first page.

So you did watch the Nova special?

Rawwwwhhrrrrkkkk!!!!!

Polly wanna cracker!!!!!

Rawwwwhhhrrkkkk!!!!

 

[jlprk]

Big deal, one documentary. Networks have always run documentaries on anniversaries divisible by 5. The ones in 1968 & 73 were conservative. The ones shown in 78, 83, and 88 were liberal, against the lone gunman nonsense. As intelligence agencies regained control, the documentaries went conservative again.

Simulations, both computer and actual shooting, have concluded either way. Nowadays, documentaries go the CIA way, but back then almost all simulations pointed against the Warren Commission. You skeptics who disagree with the majority of Americans should know that one singular event trumps any simulation.

E. Howard Hunt admitted that he was part of the group who killed the President. 9 years later, he led Nixon's Plumbers, a bunch of CIA burglars who broke into Democratic leaders' offices including the Watergate, in the fake election of 1972. His confession is worth 100 of your contrived simulations.

 

[jlprk]

If you heard that a member of this forum killed the president you know the first person you would think did it was Maris61.

(And by posting this comment the NSA and Secret Service will probably be all over my shit.)

Actually, when your post showed that the mod staff rates posters by potential of violence, I assumed the NSA has you doing it.