Jimmy Butler wants out? (He does.)

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TorturedBlazerFan said:
I see Butler as the starting 3, we have a lot guards theyd fill cj’s shows be committee. It would make our bench better by having Moe on the bench (if they can get him to buy into that role).
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Moe's always seemed to perform better not as a starter, but regardless, we make our bench stronger by moving Moe to it, but then we weaken it by moving whoever off of the bench, and slotting them into Cj's role. I understand we have SGs that can play SG, and I really like Trent slotting in there as the starter if that happened. Just saying, that's still putting the hope in one of the new guys and Collins developing into a legit star, not just good, to take any sort of next step.
I get that Butler is better than CJ, I'm not going to argue that at all. Someone made an analogy earlier in the offseason about assigning "points" to each guy. Like Dame's a 90, Butler's a 90, CJ an 80, Nurk a 70, Aminu a 60, Moe a 50, whatever. Swapping out the 80 for the 90 improves us, but what we need more than anything is to get that 90, somehow, to swap with that 50. It's unlikely, I'm sure. I just think the overall risk of a CJ straight across swap for Butler outweigfhs the reward
 
KingSpeed said:
Nate- Zero progress??? 3 years ago, we were supposed to win 23 games. Last year, we won 49 and won the toughest division in the league. Yes, we flamed out in playoffs but “zero progress” isn’t accurate.
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Is that 23 from a site... or HCP? Cause one is credible, one is... HCP.
 
BonesJones said:
LOL. They're worried about getting the 8th seed to get swept by GS instead of getting the best possible package in return? Stupid. Very stupid.
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I mean they're not a very intelligent front office.
I'd say they're on par with Orlando's FO.

Giving Thibbs the ability to recreate the Bulls says it all.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
I see Butler as the starting 3, we have a lot guards theyd fill cj’s shows be committee. It would make our bench better by having Moe on the bench (if they can get him to buy into that role).
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I don't. The switchability between a Butler/Harkless/Aminu lineup would be very valuable.
 
H.C. said:
While I'm sure that lineup would get a look.
Wouldn't the logical lineup be.
Lillard, Curry, Butler, Aminu, Nurk?
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I put Trent Jr in there because he has the size to switch and in theory should be a good shooter. I see Baldwin and Curry as your situational guards and rotation guys. I really think Trent Jr has potential to be a decent NBA starter. In terms of Aminu, he’s been a good player on a good contract but if Collins is that foundational player Neil keeps saying he is, shouldnt he be able to beat out an average NBA role player to start? I say take the kiddy gloves off and make Zach go prove he’s got what it takes.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
I agree but I would start Dame / Trent Jr / Butler / Collins and Nurkic.
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Ew, why? What's the point in that...?

Being able to switch Golden States and Houston's screens and put some size on Harden would be ideal. Replacing CJ with Butler would make us a top 3 defense. That lineup? Not really.
 
BonesJones said:
Ew, why? What's the point in that...?

Being able to switch Golden States and Houston's screens and put some size on Harden would be ideal. Replacing CJ with Butler would make us a top 3 defense. That lineup? Not really.
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Collins if he’s what weve been sold is going to be a monster defensively. Collins / Nurk / Butler should be a good defensice group. Also it doesnt mean in certain situations that Moe / Butler / Aminu wont play together. I think Trent Jr if motivated can be an ok defensive player too.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
I put Trent Jr in there because he has the size to switch and in theory should be a good shooter. I see Baldwin and Curry as your situational guards and rotation guys. I really think Trent Jr has potential to be a decent NBA starter. In terms of Aminu, he’s been a good player on a good contract but if Collins is that foundational player Neil keeps saying he is, shouldnt he be able to beat out an average NBA role player to start? I say take the kiddy gloves off and make Zach go prove he’s got what it takes.
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Neither Collins nor Trent have shown enough to warrant supplanting players like Curry & Aminu.
It's not about kid gloves, it's about tailoring your expectations and putting young players in a position to succeed.
If you do this, then you aren't tortured as much as a Blazer fan. :D
Yes we all want to see x player turn into a superstar. But realistically until they show that ability, putting them in that position isn't smart.
Collins was viewed as a project big with a defensive skillset. He should be better this year, but he's still slight of frame and more than likely will be pushed around by other NBA 4/5's.
Trent early in his career is viewed more of an Allen Crabbe type. I seriously doubt he'd come in and show he deserves to start over Curry.

However I'm completely against starting Collins. Even though Nards is going to get the first look at the backup 5. It's entirely possible that Nards doesn't show up and Collins becomes the defacto backup 5 to Nurk.
 
H.C. said:
Neither Collins nor Trent have shown enough to warrant supplanting players like Curry & Aminu.
It's not about kid gloves, it's about tailoring your expectations and putting young players in a position to succeed.
If you do this, then you aren't tortured as much as a Blazer fan. :D
Yes we all want to see x player turn into a superstar. But realistically until they show that ability, putting them in that position isn't smart.
Collins was viewed as a project big with a defensive skillset. He should be better this year, but he's still slight of frame and more than likely will be pushed around by other NBA 4/5's.
Trent early in his career is viewed more of an Allen Crabbe type. I seriously doubt he'd come in and show he deserves to start over Curry.

However I'm completely against starting Collins. Even though Nards is going to get the first look at the backup 5. It's entirely possible that Nards doesn't show up and Collins becomes the defacto backup 5 to Nurk.
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If Collins cant beat Aminu or Meyers in his 2nd year Id be pretty much at the point that he is not the “foundational” player that Neil says he is. Its not like a Jermaine O’neal thing where he was sitting on the bench behind very good players.
Of course Trent Jr hasnt proven anything but no rookie has.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
Collins if he’s what weve been sold is going to be a monster defensively. Collins / Nurk / Butler should be a good defensice group. Also it doesnt mean in certain situations that Moe / Butler / Aminu wont play together. I think Trent Jr if motivated can be an ok defensive player too.
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Collins is mobile for a big but he's still not a better option switching down to guards than Aminu. You'd have no switchability in that lineup, not only because of that but because Trent couldn't switch up and isn't a good defender (yet) either...

Theres no point in having switchability against bench lineups compared to starting lineups. Usually switchability works best against stars, so I don't understand why you wouldn't use that lineup as the starting unit...
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
If Collins cant beat Aminu or Meyers in his 2nd year Id be pretty much at the point that he is not the “foundational” player that Neil says he is. Its not like a Jermaine O’neal thing where he was sitting on the bench behind very good players.
Of course Trent Jr hasnt proven anything but no rookie has.
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He wasn't even supposed to play last year, now if he's not better than Aminu at 20 years old, that means he's not a foundational player? That's extremely short-sighted.
 
BonesJones said:
Collins is mobile for a big but he's still not a better option switching down to guards than Aminu. You'd have no switchability in that lineup, not only because of that but because Trent couldn't switch up and isn't a good defender (yet) either...

Theres no point in having switchability against bench lineups compared to starting lineups. Usually switchability works best against stars, so I don't understand why you wouldn't use that lineup as the starting unit...
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Aminu and Harkless I hate them starting together just altogether hate it. Together they = like one ok player... There averages are like 15 and 11 combined. Yeah Zach cant switch but him and Nurkic could cause a lot of havok in the paint, and Zach could get out on the perimeter a little bit to guard stretch 4’s.

I agree Dame / Butler / Moe / Aminu / Nurk would be really good defensively but I just am not a fan of the Moe / Aminu pairing as its just so much mediocrity from your forwards. Maybe you go Dame / Butler / Moe / Collins / Nurk. It’s year two for Zach I feel like he needs to be out there.
 
BonesJones said:
He wasn't even supposed to play last year, now if he's not better than Aminu at 20 years old, that means he's not a foundational player? That's extremely short-sighted.
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How many Foundational players get in the NBA and cant beat out mediocre players in front of them?
Giannis was a twig, Durant still is, most guys come into the NBA not developed yet but if they’re really good end up forcing themselves onto the court. if Zach is really good shouldnt he be doing the same?
I guess it depends on our definition of “foundational” but I would consider that as basically all-star level talent. Some guys come in and dont start right away because theres really good players in front of them. Zach doesnt have really good players in front of him...
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
Aminu and Harkless I hate them starting together just altogether hate it. Together they = like one ok player... There averages are like 15 and 11 combined. Yeah Zach cant switch but him and Nurkic could cause a lot of havok in the paint, and Zach could get out on the perimeter a little bit to guard stretch 4’s.

I agree Dame / Butler / Moe / Aminu / Nurk would be really good defensively but I just am not a fan of the Moe / Aminu pairing as its just so much mediocrity from your forwards. Maybe you go Dame / Butler / Moe / Collins / Nurk. It’s year two for Zach I feel like he needs to be out there.
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We played our best basketball of the season (13 game win streak) when Harkless and Aminu were starting together and playing great. Then Mo got hurt and Dame had a baby. Season over.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
Aminu and Harkless I hate them starting together just altogether hate it. Together they = like one ok player... There averages are like 15 and 11 combined. Yeah Zach cant switch but him and Nurkic could cause a lot of havok in the paint, and Zach could get out on the perimeter a little bit to guard stretch 4’s.

I agree Dame / Butler / Moe / Aminu / Nurk would be really good defensively but I just am not a fan of the Moe / Aminu pairing as its just so much mediocrity from your forwards. Maybe you go Dame / Butler / Moe / Collins / Nurk. It’s year two for Zach I feel like he needs to be out there.
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He will be out there. If he proves he's a better option he'll start, but automatically starting him because he's young while also taking Butler in and trying to get him to stay would be counter-productive. Aminu and Harkless can both space, and with our better defense, would likely get more opportunities to run in transition. Moe and Aminu isn't mediocrity, they're a top 6 or so defensive pairing at the forward spots and have great versatility, and both can shoot. Tour angst for them is overstated, and starting a 2nd round pick of a rookie because of that is silly IMO.
 
KingSpeed said:
We played our best basketball of the season (13 game win streak) when Harkless and Aminu were starting together and playing great. Then Mo got hurt and Dame had a baby. Season over.
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Truth.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
How many Foundational players get in the NBA and cant beat out mediocre players in front of them?
Giannis was a twig, Durant still is, most guys come into the NBA not developed yet but if they’re really good end up forcing themselves onto the court. if Zach is really good shouldnt he be doing the same?
I guess it depends on our definition of “foundational” but I would consider that as basically all-star level talent. Some guys come in and dont start right away because theres really good players in front of them. Zach doesnt have really good players in front of him...
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No, Zach is not like Giannis or KD. Both of those teams were in rebuild mode their 2nd season as well. Sorry, but that's a strawman argument.
 
KingSpeed said:
We played our best basketball of the season (13 game win streak) when Harkless and Aminu were starting together and playing great. Then Mo got hurt and Dame had a baby. Season over.
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If you can get aggressive Harkless who acts like he cares yeah that helps, but unfortunately they seem to only get that about 30 games a year. I bet if you asked a panel of “experts” where the Blazers weakness is they’d all say their forwards.
They could do much, much better at either forward position.
 
KingSpeed said:
Nate- Zero progress??? 3 years ago, we were supposed to win 23 games. Last year, we won 49 and won the toughest division in the league. Yes, we flamed out in playoffs but “zero progress” isn’t accurate.
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Yes. Zero progress. We have stagnated.

2013-2014: 54-28 lost in conference semis
2014-2015: 51-31 lost in first round of playoffs
2015-2016: 44-38 lost in conference semis
2016-2017: 41-41 lost in first round
2017-208: 49-33 lost in first round

Regardless of who is on the roster, this team has stagnated. We are treading water. It's commendable that we didn't lose ground after Aldridge left, but is that really a good thing? We're a middling team. That's not a place you want to be for five years, going on six.
 
BonesJones said:
No, Zach is not like Giannis or KD. Both of those teams were in rebuild mode their 2nd season as well. Sorry, but that's a strawman argument.
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No its not, there just examples of what Id consider foundational players. I cant think of a single player that Id consider a foundational piece that couldnt beat out a very mediocre player early in their career. Not saying they dont exist. Just usually in basketball if a guy is really good, he’s going to beat out the guy in front of him, unless the guy in front of him is really good...
 
Natebishop3 said:
Yes. Zero progress. We have stagnated.

2013-2014: 54-28 lost in conference semis
2014-2015: 51-31 lost in first round of playoffs
2015-2016: 44-38 lost in conference semis
2016-2017: 41-41 lost in first round
2017-208: 49-33 lost in first round

Regardless of who is on the roster, this team has stagnated. We are treading water. It's commendable that we didn't lose ground after Aldridge left, but is that really a good thing? We're a middling team. That's not a place you want to be for five years, going on six.
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My fear is if they arent aggressively trying to get better they’ll be Atlanta in a few years... Though Dame will keep them afloat for a while still.
 
I think we'd all like to see Zach make the jump this season but he still needs to prove it. Same with Trent.
 
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