Crimson the Cat
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2008
- Messages
- 2,196
- Likes
- 38
- Points
- 48
Aren't you extinct yet?
Joel Przybilla: one of the best two point shooters in the league
- Thread starter Boob-No-More
- Start date
Welcome to our community
Be a part of something great, join today!
Aren't you extinct yet?
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2008
- Messages
- 32,870
- Likes
- 291
- Points
- 0
The burden of proof? For an opinion?
LMAO
You said he "sucks" originally, so the "burden of proof" is still on you. I'm not sure how pointing out Przy's ridiculously high FG% supported your take, but I do find your style of debate quite fascinating.
Crimson the Cat
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2008
- Messages
- 2,196
- Likes
- 38
- Points
- 48
You asked.
I'm not going to rank them, so these are in no particular order. I pick these not just for what they're doing but what they will become.
Oden, Przybilla, Biedrins, Howard, Ilgauskas, O'Neal, Bynum, Nene, Ming, Jefferson
on the cusp is Chandler (but he's been struggling so far this season).
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2008
- Messages
- 26,226
- Likes
- 14,407
- Points
- 113
What is Kobe Bryant "supposed to do?" Put up 28/5/5 or so. I suppose he deserves no credit when he does it, because he's only doing what he's supposed to do and no one deserves credit for doing what they're supposed to do.
Why does Jordan get any credit? He only did what he was supposed to do, which was carry the scoring load for the Bulls and play great defense.
That's a pretty silly statement, that doing what you're supposed to do deserves no credit. The issue is not whether you're doing what you're supposed to do. The issue is whether what you're doing is valuable, and how valuable it is.
Przybilla has been one of the best rebounders in the league, a great interior defender and extremely productive in the shots he takes. He doesn't take many shots, but every time he actually takes a shot, he's helping the team..unlike various players in the league, who are so inefficient that they actually hurt their team when they shoot, on average.
Does being an excellent rebounder, defender and limited but efficient scorer have value? Obviously. Does Przybilla deserve credit for that value? Why wouldn't he?
Jurassic
Trend Setter
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2004
- Messages
- 2,140
- Likes
- 14
- Points
- 38
Wow, great analogy.
When Kobe does "what he is supposed to do" it is something that few if any other players in the league are doing. When guys like Kobe and Jordan do what they are supposed to do, they do extraordinary things.
Other than shooting 80% from the field Joel is not doing anything extraordinary, well maybe for himself, but not in comparison to others in the league. Are there any Blazer fans who honestly believe that he will be shooting that percentage from the field by the end of the season? Halfway through the season?
You often hear elite NBA teams say "Anything less than a championship this year will be a failure". Its because those great teams are almost expected to win. Maybe that's a bad example because when you win a ring you ALWAYS deserve credit. But think of every role player in the league making the MLE, do they deserve credit for simply performing their specialty every night?
To compare Kobe and MJ's performance to Joel's is absolutely ridiculous, they are on completely different levels.
Is anyone gonna list their top 10 centers, or do we all agree that he is not top 10?
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2008
- Messages
- 26,226
- Likes
- 14,407
- Points
- 113
Good, so you've realized that your "doing what you're supposed to do shouldn't get you any praise" belief was silly. We're making progress.
You also seem to recognize that it's about the value. Jordan and Kobe are highly valued because what they do brings value beyond what most players can do. So, can players generate less value than Jordan or Kobe and still be useful?
Extraordinary? Well, being one of the top rebounders in the game is way above ordinary. Being an excellent interior defender is also well above ordinary. Do those matter?
But I wasn't comparing Przybilla's performance to Jordan's or Kobe's, obviously. I was pointing out that just because you're "doing what you're supposed to do" doesn't mean you don't deserve credit. To which you've agreed.
drexlersdad
SABAS
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2008
- Messages
- 4,825
- Likes
- 255
- Points
- 83
umm ok scalabrine deserves alot of credit for last year then
what DO they deserve? nothing? are they not worth talking about? do you just wanna talk about Vince Carter or something?
laughable at best
name the 10 most expensive metals!! do it, or else gold isnt one of them!!
oh well, and by the way, id rather not have big z, camby or nene than pryz.
<table class="tablehead" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr class="colhead" align="right"><td align="left">RNK</td><td align="left">Player</td><td>GP</td><td>Min</td><td>FG%</td><td>FT%</td><td>TS%</td><td>Ast</td><td>TO</td><td>Usg</td><td>ORR</td><td>DRR</td><td>RebR</td><td>PER</td></tr><tr class="oddrow" align="right"><td align="left">1</td><td align="left">Dwight Howard, ORL</td><td>14</td><td>36.0</td><td>.583</td><td>.543</td><td>.593</td><td>6.6</td><td>11.6</td><td>22.4</td><td>14.8</td><td>26.5</td><td>20.6</td><td class="sortcell">28.58</td></tr><tr class="evenrow" align="right"><td align="left">2</td><td align="left">Andris Biedrins, GSW</td><td>13</td><td>35.2</td><td>.551</td><td>.620</td><td>.576</td><td>11.1</td><td>11.1</td><td>18.7</td><td>15.8</td><td>26.3</td><td>20.9</td><td class="sortcell">22.95</td></tr><tr class="oddrow" align="right"><td align="left">3</td><td align="left">Shaquille O'Neal, PHO</td><td>13</td><td>27.5</td><td>.592</td><td>.568</td><td>.604</td><td>11.3</td><td>14.0</td><td>23.1</td><td>13.1</td><td>24.3</td><td>19.2</td><td class="sortcell">22.75</td></tr><tr class="evenrow" align="right"><td align="left">4</td><td align="left">Al Jefferson, MIN</td><td>12</td><td>35.9</td><td>.504</td><td>.800</td><td>.540</td><td>6.9</td><td>7.3</td><td>25.7</td><td>6.6</td><td>25.4</td><td>15.7</td><td class="sortcell">22.40</td></tr><tr class="oddrow" align="right"><td align="left">5</td><td align="left">Zydrunas Ilgauskas, CLE</td><td>13</td><td>28.2</td><td>.507</td><td>.849</td><td>.577</td><td>10.0</td><td>10.5</td><td>22.0</td><td>10.4</td><td>19.0</td><td>15.0</td><td class="sortcell">22.07</td></tr><tr class="evenrow" align="right"><td align="left">6</td><td align="left">Yao Ming, HOU</td><td>14</td><td>35.0</td><td>.528</td><td>.850</td><td>.601</td><td>7.1</td><td>14.2</td><td>21.4</td><td>9.2</td><td>22.0</td><td>15.7</td><td class="sortcell">21.33</td></tr><tr class="oddrow" align="right"><td align="left">7</td><td align="left">Andrew Bynum, LAL</td><td>12</td><td>28.8</td><td>.515</td><td>.738</td><td>.565</td><td>14.8</td><td>11.7</td><td>16.3</td><td>13.0</td><td>21.5</td><td>17.3</td><td class="sortcell">20.78</td></tr><tr class="evenrow" align="right"><td align="left">8</td><td align="left">Marcus Camby, LAC</td><td>11</td><td>28.7</td><td>.518</td><td>.818</td><td>.560</td><td>15.8</td><td>9.5</td><td>14.3</td><td>8.1</td><td>32.1</td><td>19.4</td><td class="sortcell">20.36</td></tr><tr class="oddrow" align="right"><td align="left">9</td><td align="left">Nene, DEN</td><td>14</td><td>33.6</td><td>.636</td><td>.746</td><td>.673</td><td>8.7</td><td>14.0</td><td>16.0</td><td>6.4</td><td>18.0</td><td>12.4</td><td class="sortcell">20.17</td></tr><tr class="evenrow" align="right"><td align="left">10</td><td align="left">Joel Przybilla, POR</td><td>15</td><td>24.5</td><td>.827</td><td>.524</td><td>.792</td><td>9.6</td><td>16.8</td><td>8.9</td><td>12.5</td><td>31.0</td><td>21.2</td><td class="sortcell">19.00</td></tr><tr class="oddrow" align="right"><td align="left">11</td><td align="left">Greg Oden, POR</td><td>9</td><td>19.6</td><td>.510</td><td>.625</td><td>.563</td><td>8.7</td><td>18.6</td><td>20.6</td><td>13.4</td><td>30.9</td><td>21.7</td><td class="sortcell">18.70
</td></tr></tbody></table>
Last edited:
drexlersdad
SABAS
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2008
- Messages
- 4,825
- Likes
- 255
- Points
- 83
2nd in the nba(behind oden) in rebound rate.
#1 in fg%
what a loser pryz is.
#1 in fg%
what a loser pryz is.
Boob-No-More
Why you no hire big man coach?
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2008
- Messages
- 19,094
- Likes
- 22,763
- Points
- 113
So, you admit he IS doing one thing extraordinary.
And, you also understand there is a whole spectrum of other adjectives between "sucks" and "extraordinary", don't you? It's not a binary system. You don't have to either suck or be a superstar. Most players fall somewhere in between - including Joel.
So, for about the 5th time, please explain in what way a guy who has one of the highest rebound rates in the league, is a solid interior defender and just happens to be shooting 83% from the field sucks.
Stop avoiding the question and answer it. Don't ask me to post my top 10 centers. Just answer the question. You said Joel sucks. That's a bold statement. How about something to back it up.
BNM
Jurassic
Trend Setter
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2004
- Messages
- 2,140
- Likes
- 14
- Points
- 38
I don't think I ever said that he deserves NO praise, simply not a lot. So stop twisting my words.
No it is not. You can say that he is an extraordinary rebounder, actually you can't even say that. All you can say is that he's been an extraordinary rebounder for the past 14 games.
Joel is no different than a Bruce Bowen, Brent Barry, or Shawn Bradley, he excels in one or two areas and is mediocre or below average in the rest. Hence my explanation about MLE players which obviously went over your head. There is a huge difference between someone who is on fire for a while and someone who is consistantly (every season) good.
Erick Dampier is the perfect example. He was a top rebounder the year before his contract was up
. He even had the nerve to say that he was the second best center in the league (you guys remember that?). What has he done since then? Nada, squat. I know that you weren't comparing him to Kobe or MJ, but you analogy didn't make sense. On a performance level Kobe's expectation is so much higher than Joel's that it doesn't make sense to even go that route in this thread.
Jurassic
Trend Setter
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2004
- Messages
- 2,140
- Likes
- 14
- Points
- 38
Do you really not understand or are you trying to be funny. A team wins a ring, the team deserves credit.
Joel fits well into the Blazers system, and of course age is a factor. But Z is a much better player than Pryz, so are all those guys that you listed as people you would pick Joel over. d
I truly hate this whole PER measurement thing. If someone scores 10 points in 10 minutes (kind of like an Outlaw or an Ariza), it doesn't mean that they are going to score 40 points in 40 minutes. I hate those kinds of stats. I realize that isn't exactly how PER works, but if we are talking about quality of PLAYER then there are even some centers NOT on your list, who are better PLAYERS than Joel.
Brad Miller, Mehmet Okur, Rasheed Wallace, and there are even more than that. So no, Joel is not a top 10 by any stretch of the imagination.
It's the same concept as that Hollinger team rankings thread. The Mavs are listed as being higher than the Magic and Suns. You can't just take a list and say that it's proof of Joel being a top 10 center.
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2008
- Messages
- 26,226
- Likes
- 14,407
- Points
- 113
You did. In fact, you even said he "sucks." So don't pretend you were quite reasoned in your opinion. You were incredibly extreme.
So, either one is extraordinary or one sucks? Nothing in between? I didn't say he was an extraordinary rebounder (not that you've defined that term in any way). I said he was way above ordinary as a rebounder. He's always had a very good rebound rate. He's always been a very good interior defender.
Combine that with an incredible scoring efficiency (which everyone knows can't last at this level) and it's perfectly reasonable to say he's been extraordinary as a player so far this season.
I agree with these two examples, and nobody thought either player sucked in their prime. In fact, both have been lauded as very valuable complementary players.
You're killing your own argument that Przybilla sucks and doesn't deserve any (or much) credit. He deserves credit for being a pretty valuable role-player. No one has yet called him a star.
Crimson the Cat
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2008
- Messages
- 2,196
- Likes
- 38
- Points
- 48
I made my list. What do I get?
Jurassic
Trend Setter
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2004
- Messages
- 2,140
- Likes
- 14
- Points
- 38
No more extreme than the homers giving him too much credit. I'll concede that maybe I was too harsh, but at the same time people are doing what I did in the way they are prasing him. Agreed?
Are you kidding me? LMAO. Read the bolded parts and figure out what wrong with that statement.
Besides, in the quote below you do say that he's been EXTRAORDINARY.
So you choose to disagree with the Shawn Bradley example because he is widely regarded as a crappy player, and it would support my argument right? But you'll agree with the Bowen and Barry part of what I said and use it to hurt my argument? You can't take part of my quote, ignore the rest, and then try to argue that I'm wrong. That is absolutely ridiculous.
Think of all the top 10 players at every position in the NBA. All of them are stars right? Maybe not allstars, but household names among sports fans right? So for people on here to be saying that Joel is a top 10 center, implies that they think he is a star. Besides, it is insane to call someone a top 10 player over the course of 14 games, when previously they have never done these things before.
You blatanly (and conveniently
) ignored my Erick Dampier example. His play in the last year of his contract gets my point across perfectly about how someone can play well for a stretch of time (even a whole season) and then lose it all and fall back into mediocrity.
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2008
- Messages
- 26,226
- Likes
- 14,407
- Points
- 113
I think only one person said he was a top-ten center. That might be extreme, yes. Outside of that, I don't think anyone else has been at all extreme in their praise.
That's precisely why I said you haven't even defined "extraordinary." If you mean it literally (above ordinary), then every player who is above average is "extraordinary" and any player who does something above average has an "extraordinary" ability. Is that what you mean? I assumed you meant "great."
There's no point using terms like "extraordinary" if we don't have a consistent standard for what it means.
Yes, as an overall player, in 14 games. I didn't say he was an extraordinary rebounder (because that part of my post regarded his true talent level...the place where I called him "extraordinary" was limited to this season).
Wrong. I disagreed with the Bradley example because Przybilla (and Bowen and Barry) are all far superior players than Bradley, statistically and by pretty much everyone's opinion.
I can't take the part of your quote that actually made sense and ignore the part that's wrong by all the evidence? Why not? If I said that Brandon Roy is a really good player, like a Paul Pierce, Ray Allen or Wilt Chamberlain, could you choose to agree with the first two and disagree with the third? Or would that be "ridiculous?"
Not really. Center has so few impact players, I'll bet several top-ten centers aren't particularly recognizable to casual fans. I certainly wouldn't call all of them stars.
You blatanly (and conveniently
I ignored it because it wasn't relevant to what I was arguing. I was pointing out that Przybilla doesn't suck and that he deserves credit for being a pretty good role-player. Dampier having a great contract year doesn't take away from that position of mine in the least.
Last edited:
Jurassic
Trend Setter
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2004
- Messages
- 2,140
- Likes
- 14
- Points
- 38
I think we are both tired of doing this right? I'll make a few more points and then lets end this.
Damn, look at the title of the thread. Przy is one of the best two point shooters in the league? I remember a couple years ago Flip Murray was averaging around 24ppg for the Sonics while Ray Allen was injured for the first couple months of the season. Ray Allen came back and his (Flip's numbers dropped). Since then Flip has been on some crappy teams, but never reached that level again. Nobody ever started saying that Flip was one of the best scorers in the league did they? No, because he was simply hot for a while, same thing with Joel. Get it?
This is crazy. You said that Joel is a "way above ordinary" rebounder. Silly me, I always thought that was the definition of extraordinary. But I guess it's my fault for not defining a SIMPLE everyday word like extraordinary. Whatever, it's in the past.
Ok so you're clarifying now, fine. But don't try to play like that is what you said at first.
Then you missed my point completely. Bradley was an EXTRAORDINARY (a term meaning "way above ordinary") shot blocker. Sucked in other areas. That was my point. He was a specialist and never got a ridiculous amount of credit for it, like a certain guy who this thread is about is getting.
Damn. Sure, it wasn't relevant to your argument but it WAS relevant to my argument. That's how an "argument" works, I post things to prove my point, NOT things to prove yours.
Dampier having a great contract year and sucking afterwards shows that until someone can (from season to season) be great, don't give them credit for it. Same concept as the Flip Murray example I used at the start of this post.
.[/QUOTE]
Damn, look at the title of the thread. Przy is one of the best two point shooters in the league? I remember a couple years ago Flip Murray was averaging around 24ppg for the Sonics while Ray Allen was injured for the first couple months of the season. Ray Allen came back and his (Flip's numbers dropped). Since then Flip has been on some crappy teams, but never reached that level again. Nobody ever started saying that Flip was one of the best scorers in the league did they? No, because he was simply hot for a while, same thing with Joel. Get it?
This is crazy. You said that Joel is a "way above ordinary" rebounder. Silly me, I always thought that was the definition of extraordinary. But I guess it's my fault for not defining a SIMPLE everyday word like extraordinary. Whatever, it's in the past.
Ok so you're clarifying now, fine. But don't try to play like that is what you said at first.
Then you missed my point completely. Bradley was an EXTRAORDINARY (a term meaning "way above ordinary") shot blocker. Sucked in other areas. That was my point. He was a specialist and never got a ridiculous amount of credit for it, like a certain guy who this thread is about is getting.
Damn. Sure, it wasn't relevant to your argument but it WAS relevant to my argument. That's how an "argument" works, I post things to prove my point, NOT things to prove yours.
Dampier having a great contract year and sucking afterwards shows that until someone can (from season to season) be great, don't give them credit for it. Same concept as the Flip Murray example I used at the start of this post.
Boob-No-More
Why you no hire big man coach?
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2008
- Messages
- 19,094
- Likes
- 22,763
- Points
- 113
You blatanly (and conveniently
Actually, I ignored it because it's yet another completely irrelevant strawman argument.
Me: With an 83% FG% Joel Pryzbilla is one of the best two point shooters in the league
You: Joel sucks.
Where exactly does Erick Dampier enter into this discussion and how is he relevant? He's not. Either Joel sucks or he doesn't, regardless of what Erick Dampier did, or didn't do, five years ago. The two are totally unrelated - and it's not even a good analogy. As you stated, Dampier was playing for a contract. Joel has nearly three years left on his current deal. Again, totally unrelated and another ill thought out attempt to justify your extreme stance that Joel sucks.
BNM
Boob-No-More
Why you no hire big man coach?
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2008
- Messages
- 19,094
- Likes
- 22,763
- Points
- 113
You are just plain flat out wrong on this point. Talent is not equally distributed between all five positions. Center is always the position with the least depth. That's why we get guys like Jamaal Magloire making the All-Star team. And no, the top 10 centers aren't household names among sports fans. Is Andris Beidrins a household name? No. Is Nene a household name? No. Is Chris Kaman a household name? No. At the center position, once you get beyond the top 4 or 5 players, there is a huge drop off in stardom and name recognition.
BNM
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2008
- Messages
- 26,226
- Likes
- 14,407
- Points
- 113
That's a fact, based on percentages. Simply an interesting example of something Przybilla has been doing well so far. No one's saying that Przybilla is one of the best scorers in the NBA. Get it?
"Extraordinary" literally means "above ordinary." So you think every above average player is extraordinary. Okay.
That's exactly what I said. I said he wasn't an extraordinary rebounder and then later said that it's reasonable to say he's been an extraordinary player for the 14 games of this season. Go back and check. I'll wait.
You missed my point. Przybilla, like Bowen and Barry (and unlike Bradley), has been a valuable role-player. That makes him quite deserving of credit, just as Bowen and Barry were deserving of credit (and received it).
If you disagree with someone I'm saying, you need to provide something that contradicts what I said. Dampier's contract season doesn't contradict anything I said.
That's incorrect. Dampier deserved credit for that season, because he achieved it and his team benefited from it. That didn't mean that he was suddenly a great player. Similarly, Przybilla deserves credit for what he's doing, even if he's not likely to keep it up the rest of his career.
And Przybilla deserves credit for his career value, which is quite high for a role-player.
Last edited: