Kahn: Kidd Now Only Seventh Best at the Point

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Iverson most definatley plays point gaurd for the sixers, thats not even arguable. I never said kidd will not be in the hall of fame and i never said he didnt have a good career. i remember watchin kidd when he played for pheonix and i thought he was an amazing player. but RIGHT NOW (most people are missing this) there are many players better than him. I think there was another post in this forum also stating that. Kidd is # 34 in the league. i already made a post with 25 i thought were better than him so it looks like im not the only one who thinks this.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Just because he's small does not make him a "point guard". Magic Johnson is 6"9 but he is a "point guard</div> huh?
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Answer_AI03:</div><div class="quote_post">huh?</div>

AI is not a PG because he's small. He may play point at times but AI is NOT a point guard. I was just making a point with Magic regarding size, how it does not automatically designate what position a players plays because of it. Should I explain it more? Slowly maybe?
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<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Answer_AI03:</div><div class="quote_post">There is no way that hes making carter better, or K-mart, or kittles when he played. They all were talented players and played well with kidd, but didnt NEED him to be good.</div>

And what of Steve Nash and the Suns? Why is it that Dirk was never considered MVP material but this season, without Nash if you didn't know
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, was in strong MVP debate? Why was Nash so unnoticed in Dallas but is now "OMG SO GOOD" in Phoenix?

Boris Diaw was already talented, he never got the minutes, and he also never got the opportunity. Add on the system they play in and he is surely going to get his stats up.

Marion was already good, so was Amare.

Everyone on the Suns is a direct victim and result of the Suns playstyle and tempo. Anyone playing in that system is most likely going to have great numbers, even Pat freaking Burke looked good out there. 9/10 times in Suns games you'll see them shoot the ball with plenty of time on the clock. All they do is run, and shoot three's. No defense involved. Why do you think Tim Thomas looked so great? Why do you think this offseason the Suns loaded up with more shooters? All that system does is play into shooting and running. Again that will throw up your numbers.

Add to that a good PG (Nash), and you have a MVP type calibur player who "makes people better". Nash was already a good PG. Kidd was a great PG. Due to the system and players in the Suns system Nash is an MVP. Stick Kidd in Nash's situation and they would have been just as good, maybe better. They would probably do worse imo since Kidd lacks as good a jumpshot as Nash. Truth is that's the only advantage Nash has over Kidd imo.

In terms of PG abilities Kidd has the edge over Nash no doubt. He also beats him out in terms of defense.

Why is it that Nash was only considered in MVP talks in Phoenix and not Dallas? The system they play in has a STRONG influence on that my friend.

Kidd > Nash, no contest.
 
Kidd is a threat with or without the ball. He creates situations for his teammates without having to handle the ball as much as Nash does. We often see Nash run around in circles. And a lot of times Nash is out of control. He should thank his shooting, because without it Nash won't be effective. Jason Kidd, on the other hand can be effective despite (what some people say) his "weak offense". For a guy who has a "weak offense", he is constantly double teamed. You see, Kidd is a threat in more ways than one. Without his outside shot, Kidd is still deadly. What more if his jumpers fall? For Nash to be effective, he has to score. Without his shooting Nash won't even be an average point guard in the NBA. Truth is, Nash is an unbelievable shooter. But without it....
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<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Stick Kidd in Nash's situation and they would have been just as good,</div> no arguement at all there. but one of the reasons why nash makes the offense even more deadly is the defending team must respect his shot and his drive. There offense really hangs defenses out to dry because they dont leave alot of options for the defense. I dont think Kidd would be able to do that to the same extent. Kidd just isnt that great of a scorer, plus nash has the speed advantage. but when it comes to overall pg skills, i would say there pretty close.
 
Kidd is awesome
Nash is awesome

2 players who make great passes. If I were building a team, I would take either player on my team in a heartbeat.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Answer_AI03:</div><div class="quote_post">no arguement at all there. but one of the reasons why nash makes the offense even more deadly is the defending team must respect his shot and his drive. There offense really hangs defenses out to dry because they dont leave alot of options for the defense. I dont think Kidd would be able to do that to the same extent. Kidd just isnt that great of a scorer, plus nash has the speed advantage. but when it comes to overall pg skills, i would say there pretty close.</div>

You really have no idea of what a true point guard is.
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<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AMS_ice:</div><div class="quote_post">You really have no idea of what a true point guard is.
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</div>

Now you get it, his defenition of a point guard is scoring 25 points a game.
 
Yeah! That's why his point guard lists includes, AI, Marbury
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, Nash and Arenas.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AMS_ice:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah! That's why his point guard lists includes, AI, Marbury
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, Nash and Arenas.</div>
Why wouldn't his pg list include Nash?
 
So I guess ANSWER_AI03 doesn't consider John Stockton as a great point guard 'coz he wasn't a big scorer like Nash and Marbury. Who cares about his 10.5 apg, 2 spg. career averages or being named in the All NBA first team twice, 2nd team 6 times or the defensive second team 5 times. It doesn't mean sh#t right? Because Stockton only averaged 13.1ppg in his career. Unlike Nash or Marbury, who are "great scorers' and can do a lot more for their team. The likes of Kidd and Stockton can't do much for their team, because they are not a threat on the offensive end right?
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<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AMS_ice:</div><div class="quote_post">So I guess ANSWER_AI03 doesn't consider John Stockton as a great point guard 'coz he wasn't a big scorer like Nash and Marbury. Who cares about his 10.5 apg, 2 spg. career averages or being named in the All NBA first team twice, 2nd team 6 times or the defensive second team 5 times. It doesn't mean sh#t right? Because Stockton only averaged 13.1ppg in his career. Unlike Nash or Marbury, who are "great scorers' and can do a lot more for their team. The likes of Kidd and Stockton can't do much for their team, because they are not a threat on the offensive end right?
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</div>
Nash's career ppg is 13.5 ppg hardly what I would call a great scorer, he is efficient when he scores (from 2pt or 3pt range)
Stockton's career ppg is 13.1 ppg, but he was efficient shooting good FG% and 3pt FG%.

Just because a pointguard is a good shooter like Stockton or Nash doesn't mean they are any less of a pointguard. Shooting is a valuable skill for a pointguard.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SkiptoMyLue11:</div><div class="quote_post">Nash's career ppg is 13.5 ppg hardly what I would call a great scorer, he is efficient when he scores (from 2pt or 3pt range)
Stockton's career ppg is 13.1 ppg, but he was efficient shooting good FG% and 3pt FG%.

Just because a pointguard is a good shooter like Stockton or Nash doesn't mean they are any less of a pointguard. Shooting is a valuable skill for a pointguard.</div>

First of all, Nash's 13.5 ppg average is, like you said, is his career average. Second, Stockton wasn't a great point guard because of his shooting. Stockton, like Kidd, had great court vision, and can create opportunities for his teammates by getting them the ball at the right time and place. Shooting does not make a player "less of a point guard". True, it doesn't hurt a point guard if he can shoot. But it does hurt when a point guard shoots more than he passes. How does Nash gets his assists? It's when he has nowhere to go after he goes up for a shot or when he drives in the lane and kicks out at the last second. Point guards are suppose to set up the play for his team.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Franchise4Ever:</div><div class="quote_post">And what of Steve Nash and the Suns? Why is it that Dirk was never considered MVP material but this season, without Nash if you didn't know
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, was in strong MVP debate? Why was Nash so unnoticed in Dallas but is now "OMG SO GOOD" in Phoenix?

Boris Diaw was already talented, he never got the minutes, and he also never got the opportunity. Add on the system they play in and he is surely going to get his stats up.

Marion was already good, so was Amare.

In terms of PG abilities Kidd has the edge over Nash no doubt. He also beats him out in terms of defense.

Why is it that Nash was only considered in MVP talks in Phoenix and not Dallas? The system they play in has a STRONG influence on that my friend.

Kidd > Nash, no contest.</div>


Then why did Kidd suck when he played in Phoenix with the Suns?

Dont even compare Kidd to Stockton, Kidd is complete garbage if you draw parallels to a great like Stockton, who can not only pass well, but shoot in the clutch as well. Nash makes really good assists, if he's on top and MVP then something can be said about how good he is. Nash does set up plays for his teammates, all of them. Kidd is good too, but don't totally bash Nash cuz you want people to say Kidd is the best point guard in the NBA since he is your favourite player, and no one would like Kidd unless they lived in New Jersey, because he's completely BORING! At least Nash has flash too as well as killer assists, and scoring in the clutch. Kidd is so generic, and yes, pass to Carter the human highlight reel, who scores all of the nets points. BTW Carter was on nightly highlight reels even before he was a teammate of Kidd's so it doesnt even matter who passes to Carter.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting intrepid1983:</div><div class="quote_post">Then why did Kidd suck when he played in Phoenix with the Suns?

Dont even compare Kidd to Stockton, Kidd is complete garbage if you draw parallels to a great like Stockton, who can not only pass well, but shoot in the clutch as well. Nash makes really good assists, if he's on top and MVP then something can be said about how good he is. Nash does set up plays for his teammates, all of them. Kidd is good too, but don't totally bash Nash cuz you want people to say Kidd is the best point guard in the NBA since he is your favourite player, and no one would like Kidd unless they lived in New Jersey, because he's completely BORING! At least Nash has flash too as well as killer assists, and scoring in the clutch. Kidd is so generic, and yes, pass to Carter the human highlight reel, who scores all of the nets points. BTW Carter was on nightly highlight reels even before he was a teammate of Kidd's so it doesnt even matter who passes to Carter.</div>

Excuse me. Kidd? Sucked in Phoenix?

Participated in the 1998 NBA All-Star Game in New York, totaling 9 assists in 19 minutes of play.
Led the league (along with Detroit's Grant Hill) in triple-doubles (4), ranked second in assists (9.1 apg) and seventh in steals (1.98 spg).
Named NBA Player of the Week for the week ending Mar. 15, averaging 16.0 ppg, 10.0 apg, 6.5 rpg and 3.00 spg while shooting .622 from the field. Won the award again for the week ending Apr. 19, averaging 17.3 ppg, 11.0 apg, 8.3 rpg and 4.00 spg. This is only one season. Kidd was the first Suns player to lead the NBA in assists (10.8)

As for making baskets in the clutch. Jason Kidd does that. Look for a tape of their back to back East titles. And where has Nash' clutch shooting brought the Suns?Kidd, boring? Kidd has made passes that Nash can only dream of. Are you sure you know who Jason Kidd is? Did you just bang your head to a wall? Get it checked man...
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Kidd generic?
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Maybe your knowledge of Kidd is...
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JASON KIDD - POINT GUARD

*Named to 2005-06 NBA All-Defensive First Team
*Ranks 9th on the NBA's all-time assists list with 7,283
*67 career triple-doubles, 29 as a Net
*4th on the NBA all-time lists for assists per game (9.3)
*Named All-NBA First Team in 2003-04, 2001-02, 2000-01, 1999-00 and 1998-99
*Named All-NBA Second Team in 2002-03
*Named First Team All-Defensive Team in 2003-04, 2001-02, 2000-01 and 1998-99
*Named Second Team All-Defensive Team in 2004-05, 2002-03 and 199-00.
*2003 USA Basketball Men's Senior National Team
*Seven-time NBA All-Star
*Became only the fourth player in NBA history to lead the league in assists three-straight seasons - 1999-01 (John Stockton, 1988-96; Oscar Robertson, 1964-66; Bob Cousy, 1953-60)
*Won a gold medal in the 2000 Sydney Olympics.
*First Maverick to start an All-Star Game (1996).
*Became the sixth fastest NBA player to record 5000 career assists (531 games), as he finished with three points, 15 assists and eight rebounds in 44 minutes at Dallas on 1/21/2002
*Set the Nets all-time single season triple-double mark (8), and in doing so, became the Nets all-time leader in triple-doubles
*Set the Nets all-time single season assist mark by recording 808 assists
*Became first Nets player ever to win ?Eastern Conference Player of the Month? for November by averaging 13.3 points, 9.6 assists, 7.6 rebounds and 1.8 steals in leading the Nets to a 10-5 record and their best start in franchise history
*Exploded for career-high 43 points at Houston on 3/29/01
*Topped 700 assists and 500 rebounds in the same season for the second time in 1997-98, joining Robertson and Magic Johnson (six times each) as the only players in NBA history to do so more than once
*Was named 1994-95 NBA co-Rookie of the Year (with Grant Hill) and was a *unanimous selection to the 1994-95 NBA All-Rookie First Team

Enough said.
 
First of all stockton could shoot the ball WAY better than kidd could. he didnt score alot but he shot the ball well, which keeps the defense honost. And just because a player can score AND pass, why does that make him not a pg? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So I guess ANSWER_AI03 doesn't consider John Stockton as a great point guard 'coz he wasn't a big scorer like Nash and Marbury.</div>
i never said a pg has to be a great scorer to be a pg. Where are you getting this? i said that Iverson and arenas, and nash are better point gaurds than kidd because they not only can pass but they score alot as well. If i had to choose between a gaurd that can only pass, or one that can shoot the ball and pass, i would choose the one can do both. And besides, im sure if stockton wanted to he could have averaged alot more than that. what is the point of listing everything kidd has ever done? in case you forgot, the post was started stating the best pgs THIS YEAR. I'm tired of posting in this thread because its obvious that just about everyone in here is gay for kidd.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AMS_ice:</div><div class="quote_post">First of all, Nash's 13.5 ppg average is, like you said, is his career average. Second, Stockton wasn't a great point guard because of his shooting. Stockton, like Kidd, had great court vision, and can create opportunities for his teammates by getting them the ball at the right time and place. Shooting does not make a player "less of a point guard". True, it doesn't hurt a point guard if he can shoot. But it does hurt when a point guard shoots more than he passes. How does Nash gets his assists? It's when he has nowhere to go after he goes up for a shot or when he drives in the lane and kicks out at the last second. Point guards are suppose to set up the play for his team.</div>
Although passing is important, if a player has open looks and his players are covered he think what is best for the team and score.

Scoring is a good thing, when it is a high percentage shot. Nash and Stockton seem to have good shot selection, as their FG% and 3pt FG% are quite high. When the opponent knows that a player is looking to pass and gives the pointguard an open look, he should take advantage of it.

Kidd is still an awesome pointguard even though he is not the greatest of shooters, but Nash and Stockton were definitely better for their teams by shooting better percentages.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Then why did Kidd suck when he played in Phoenix with the Suns?</div>

Are you serious? Kidd sucked.....never.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Dont even compare Kidd to Stockton, Kidd is complete garbage if you draw parallels to a great like Stockton,</div>

That is so stupid. Kobe must be garbage too and doesn't deserve to be compared to Jordan.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">and no one would like Kidd unless they lived in New Jersey, because he's completely BORING! At least Nash has flash too as well as killer assists, and scoring in the clutch</div>

Please leave. Kidd is in no way boring, and I rather have him win than have flashness too. Nash has flash but where has that taken him?


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">BTW Carter was on nightly highlight reels even before he was a teammate of Kidd's so it doesnt even matter who passes to Carter.</div>

Who the hell cares about highlight reels?


Congrats on making yourself look like an idiot with your pointess comments.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Kidd:</div><div class="quote_post">Are you serious? Kidd sucked.....never.

That is so stupid. Kobe must be garbage too and doesn't deserve to be compared to Jordan.

Please leave. Kidd is in no way boring, and I rather have him win than have flashness too. Nash has flash but where has that taken him?

Who the hell cares about highlight reels?

Congrats on making yourself look like an idiot with your pointess comments.</div>

Kobe can be compared to Jordan, Kidd cannot be compared to Stockton. yes Kidd didn't do so well in Phoenix, that is why they traded him. Nash has flash, where has that taken him? MVP. And I know Kidd was amazing before, but not now. You obviously don't watch Nash enough so this conversation is pointless. There is no point in a response
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Answer_AI03:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm tired of posting in this thread because its obvious that just about everyone in here is gay for kidd.</div>

I agree
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe can be compared to Jordan, Kidd cannot be compared to Stockton.</div>

Why not?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> yes Kidd didn't do so well in Phoenix, that is why they traded him.</div>

They traded him because of personal situations in his family.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Nash has flash, where has that taken him? MVP.</div>

Haha. So because Nash has flash that's how he got the MVP? Lebron,Wade, Kobe,Carter have more flash than Nash but they haven't gotten an MVP. Why is that?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You obviously don't watch Nash enough so this conversation is pointless. </div>

Neither do you.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm tired of posting in this thread because its obvious that just about everyone in here is gay for kidd. </div>

So don't post here. No one is forcing you.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm tired of posting in this thread because its obvious that just about everyone in here is gay for kidd. </div>

That's great we don't need posters like you anyways.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting intrepid1983:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe can be compared to Jordan, Kidd cannot be compared to Stockton. yes Kidd didn't do so well in Phoenix, that is why they traded him. Nash has flash, where has that taken him? MVP. And I know Kidd was amazing before, but not now. You obviously don't watch Nash enough so this conversation is pointless. There is no point in a response</div>

What the hell do you have against Kidd? Kobe can be compared to Jordan, but not Kidd to Stockton? Are you on crack? If anything, the opposite would be true. Kidd is and always has been a better overall player than Nash. He passes, rebounds and defends better. Nash is a better scorer true, but his assists are inflated because od the system and players he plays with. Kidd has two other great playmakers on his team. MVP's don't mean that much. Duncan robbed Kidd twice, and there are handfuls of guys in the HOF who have never even won one.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting intrepid1983:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe can be compared to Jordan, Kidd cannot be compared to Stockton. yes Kidd didn't do so well in Phoenix, that is why they traded him. Nash has flash, where has that taken him? MVP. And I know Kidd was amazing before, but not now. You obviously don't watch Nash enough so this conversation is pointless. There is no point in a response</div>

Man your shooting blanks! Kidd wasn't traded because he sucked? Read the facts on my previous post. Here's another fact for you... Kidd was traded because of his domestic problems and not his play. Check the facts! He was named ALL-NBA First Team 3 times, NBA Defensive first Team twice and he bacame only the fourth player behind Stockton, Robertson and Cousy to lead the NBA in assists for three straight seasons not to mention the first Phoenix Suns' player to lead the league in assists. He accomplished that while he was in Phoenix. If you thinked that sucked, then you must be DUMB! And A lot of us do watch enough of Nash. How can you miss him? He's the one always running in circles. Kidd has "flash", and where has that taken him? Back to back East rings b@#!H!
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Kidd can play defense, Nash can't.
Kidd can rebound, Nash can't.
Kidd can lead a team the the finals, Nash can't.
All Nash has is his passes, shot, and wet fingers.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Answer_AI03:</div><div class="quote_post"> I'm tired of posting in this thread because its obvious that just about everyone in here is gay for kidd.</div>

Hmmm... Not anymore than you are...
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<div class="quote_poster">Quoting intrepid1983:</div><div class="quote_post">I agree</div>

That your both gay?!
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It's a little off-topic but AMS_ice why don't you just post all your comments in one post instead of making 2 more posts? It's unnecessary and considered to be spam. Just letting you know.
 
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