Kevin Love - Possible?

[illmatic99]

@LayneStaley should check out this video. I counted it once, I think his #makes is in the 60s, while he had 5 or 4 misses. Dude can shoot. Really looking forward to him having more comfort and responsibility on the court - a true 2-way player.

That one dribble pullup is money. Where is that in games and why have we not made that a weapon?

 

[dviss1]

Can someone please remind me how we went down this rat hole? This is a thread about possible Kevin Love trades. CLE isn't interested in Zach Collins. They need IMMEDIATE help, not a 20-year old skinny rookie.

BNM

If you trade for Love then you start with Collins not CJ. I personally like both CJ and Collins but if you are giving up value for a Big then we need to move a Big. If you think Collins is a center and can play next to Love...then start with Nurk. (and of course filler in both scenarios)

And of course there is no way Love is worth moving both Collins AND CJ.

I think giving up Collins would be a huge mistake. He's showing alot of promise right now, he's cheap, and he isn't a valuble bargaining chip anyway. He has the potential to be a phenomenal player, he needs to be given some time. Fuck bundling up a promising rookie in a package with some scrubs and trading him away for some player past their prime.

Who plays center when Davis and Collins are in the game? Collins is a Stretch 4.

Why would we trade a young guy like Collins for an old guy who doesn't play defense? Huh?

Exactly. Keep Collins.

Man this post reminds me of the mass amount of posters arguing with me before the season started. About if Davis was a 4 or a 5...
I said he has a 5's game in a 4's body, as that was the scouting report for the draft and nothing had changed.
I was right about that.
I'd say 5-1 odds that I'm right about Collins being a natural 5 as well, with the ability to slide to the 4.
He's closer to Camby/Birdman, than he is Green/prime ibaka.

Then the forum went crazy and formulated their own opinions when I said:

Neither Camby nor Birdman could shoot outside of 15 feet (birdman like 5)

Collins is much more Dirkish on offense than a Camby.

 

[LayneStaley]

His rookie Per36 numbers have him at 3.1. So you're saying that never in his career will he shoot 5+?



Maybe not in his rookie season sure. But ever in his career?

He's a 3 & D PF man...

No I don’t...but maybe my brain is just still rebooting after all the Dirk talk

 

[Boob-No-More]

Then the forum went crazy and formulated their own opinions when I said:

This is where it all started:

"If you trade for Love then you start with Collins not CJ."

But no, you don't. CLE is desperate to win now. Zach Collins doesn't help accomplish that.

BNM

 

[dviss1]

No I don’t...but maybe my brain is just still rebooting after all the Dirk talk

But that's the thing. Y'all took that and ran with it. I literally said his game is "more DirkISH on OFFENSE than a Camby".

And it sure in Hell is.

Camby had NO BTTB game while Dirk was amazing in that area.

Collins has excellent footwork.

Camby could barely shoot from the 15 while Dirk can shoot from 25.

Collins is an excellent shooter.

Now, if your brain had to reboot after that one simple sentence....

 

[calvin natt]

If Paul Allen's directive to the FO is to make the most out of Damians next 3-4 years, then guys like Collins are goners. You'd see a few 25-35 year olds sent to Portland to 'win now'. But I cannot fathom a way they win anything more than a round or maybe two in the playoffs in the next 3 or 4 years. That's the problem.

I think Collins has a good chance to be a very good player for the next decade. It would suck to give him up, but it might be the only way to make Lillard happy. Tough decisions need to be made....

 

[Pinwheel1]

This is where it all started:

"If you trade for Love then you start with Collins not CJ."

But no, you don't. CLE is desperate to win now. Zach Collins doesn't help accomplish that.

BNM

OK you are quoting me.... but keep in mind I was responding to the post that said "if you trade for Love then you start with CJ"

My point was I wouldn't trade our starting SG for yet another PF. That would not help us. And if we got Love it would hamper the development of Collins. So why trade for him?

But yeah the Cavs would want something back. But I am not so sure they are in a win now mode. I think they are starting to think about the future. Or at least they should be since James will be leaving this summer. If I am the Cavs...I want Collins

 

[H.C.]

Rookie Dirk shot 41% from field and 21% from three. Collins is better.

I've been under the weather for basically the entire month of feburary, and today was one of the worst days to get through.

Thank you Eric, I needed a laugh today.

Collins better than Dirk rofl.
Next will be Nards better than Dirk because Nards has a higher per this year than dirk does.
Or
Layman is better than Kevin Durant because he made 7 three pointers against GSW last year.

The laughs.
Thank you.

 

[BBert]

FTFY

Pretty sure he's not the chief bottle washer though, LOL

 

[BBert]

Exactly. Keep Collins.

I'm a YUUUGE Collins fanboy.

Untouchable

 

[Boob-No-More]

OK you are quoting me.... but keep in mind I was responding to the post that said "if you trade for Love then you start with CJ"

My point was I wouldn't trade our starting SG for yet another PF. That would not help us. And if we got Love it would hamper the development of Collins. So why trade for him?

But yeah the Cavs would want something back. But I am not so sure they are in a win now mode. I think they are starting to think about the future. Or at least they should be since James will be leaving this summer. If I am the Cavs...I want Collins

When was the last time the Cavs made a trade or signed a free agent that made them younger? Sure, they got the BRK pick in the Kyrie trade, but that trade made them older this year. That pick and Kevin Love are their only tradeable assets. They probably won't even keep the pick.

If they aren't in win now mode, why are they so hot to get 31-year old George Hill and his $20 million a year salary when they already have Isaiah Thomas, Derrick Rose and Jose Calderon on their roster?

LeBron is their goose that lays the golden eggs. They are going to do everything possible to maximize their return on his final season. They may even be trying to convince themselves they can persuade him to stay and retire a Cleveland Cavalier.

BNM

 

[BrianFromWA]

Have the Blazers ever got better through free agency? How is thier track record with the draft? The only time this franchise had a chance at a title in the past 20 years was through trades! Being a cursed team from the Northwest makes trading for talent the only way. Dame doesn’t wanna wait 3 years for Collins to be a beast, either surround him with players ready to win now by mortgaging the future or trade him, that’s my opinion.

Pretty sure they drafted two allstars and OdenOverDurant in a 2 year period.
Pretty sure they got their latest allstar in the draft
Pretty sure they got the 2016 MIP in the draft.
Kinda sure that if they'd have drafted instead of trading the 2013, 14 and 15 picks they wouldn't have paid Mo, Meyers and ET 40M/yr.
Pretty sure they picked up Ed and Chief on below-market deals in FA as role players.

However, our GM did just whiff on PG13 and Melo trades.

I wholeheartedly disagree that trading for talent is the "only" way. And as far as "Dame doesn't wanna wait for 3 years for X to be a beast..." and "mortgaging the future", the dude is 27. His #2 is 26. His #3 is 23.
For reference, MJ was 28 when he won his first title.

 

[BrianFromWA]

When was the last time the Cavs made a trade or signed a free agent that made them younger? Sure, they got the BRK pick in the Kyrie trade, but that trade made them older this year. That pick and Kevin Love are their only tradeable assets. They probably won't even keep the pick.

If they aren't in win now mode, why are they so hot to get 31-year old George Hill and his $20 million a year salary when they already have Isaiah Thomas, Derrick Rose and Jose Calderon on their roster?

LeBron is their goose that lays the golden eggs. They are going to do everything possible to maximize their return on his final season. They may even be trying to convince themselves they can persuade him to stay and retire a Cleveland Cavalier.

BNM

It's LeBron's MO when he's in GM mode. Remember "mortgaging the farm" for the likes of Donyell Marshall, Joe Smith and Wally Szczerbiak? Delonte "Eff Your Mom, LeBron (literally)" West? Shaq, Antawn Jamison and Bassy Telfair?

Leaving the cupboard garbage, leading up until the unprecedented 3-lotto-wins-in-4-years Cavs we now know and love.

 

[Boob-No-More]

It's LeBron's MO when he's in GM mode. Remember "mortgaging the farm" for the likes of Donyell Marshall, Joe Smith and Wally Szczerbiak? Delonte "Eff Your Mom, LeBron (literally)" West? Shaq, Antawn Jamison and Bassy Telfair?

Leaving the cupboard garbage, leading up until the unprecedented 3-lotto-wins-in-4-years Cavs we now know and love.

Yep, when it comes to the Cavs rebuilding during the LeBron eras (plural), they pretty much take a scorched earth approach.

BNM

 

[tester551]

I've been under the weather for basically the entire month of feburary, and today was one of the worst days to get through.

Thank you Eric, I needed a laugh today.

Collins better than Dirk rofl.
Next will be Nards better than Dirk because Nards has a higher per this year than dirk does.
Or
Layman is better than Kevin Durant because he made 7 three pointers against GSW last year.

The laughs.
Thank you.

Are you from the future?
If ao, can you give me the winning PowerBall numbers for February 2nd?

 

[Pinwheel1]

When was the last time the Cavs made a trade or signed a free agent that made them younger? Sure, they got the BRK pick in the Kyrie trade, but that trade made them older this year. That pick and Kevin Love are their only tradeable assets. They probably won't even keep the pick.

BNM

Love is 29, if they trade him it will almost certainly be for someone younger. Who could help that is older or the same age? Maybe they trade the pick but I bet it will be for someone who is younger than Love and who will be around after LBJ is gone. They would be stupid not too. They need to think about life after LeBron.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Love is 29, if they trade him it will almost certainly be for someone younger. Who could help that is older or the same age? Maybe they trade the pick but I bet it will be for someone who is younger than Love and who will be around after LBJ is gone. They would be stupid not too. They need to think about life after LeBron.

The current owner doesn't. He's selling the team.

BNM

 

[Minstrel]

Love is 29, if they trade him it will almost certainly be for someone younger. Who could help that is older or the same age?

If they end up trading Love in a deal for DeAndre Jordan, they'll technically get older. Granted, only by a few months.

 

[LayneStaley]

Pretty sure they drafted two allstars and OdenOverDurant in a 2 year period.
Pretty sure they got their latest allstar in the draft
Pretty sure they got the 2016 MIP in the draft.
Kinda sure that if they'd have drafted instead of trading the 2013, 14 and 15 picks they wouldn't have paid Mo, Meyers and ET 40M/yr.
Pretty sure they picked up Ed and Chief on below-market deals in FA as role players.

However, our GM did just whiff on PG13 and Melo trades.

I wholeheartedly disagree that trading for talent is the "only" way. And as far as "Dame doesn't wanna wait for 3 years for X to be a beast..." and "mortgaging the future", the dude is 27. His #2 is 26. His #3 is 23.
For reference, MJ was 28 when he won his first title.

With all those great draft choices and free agent signings you listed did they even make a western conference finals or come close? Dame will not wait 3 more years if the plan is to build through the draft and sign BENCH players via free agency to make starters. Trader Bob would be a huge upgrade over Neil!

 

[LayneStaley]

I would rather be a top 3 team with a chance at a ring or a bottom 3 team with a chance at winning the lottery. The purgatory inbetween those SUCKS.

 

[BrianFromWA]

With all those great draft choices and free agent signings you listed did they even make a western conference finals or come close? Dame will not wait 3 more years if the plan is to build through the draft and sign BENCH players via free agency to make starters. Trader Bob would be a huge upgrade over Neil!

Sorry, I'm trying to remember any trades that occurred under any of the last 3 CBAs that got us to the Conf Finals or any trades in the last 25 years that got us to the Finals.

 

[LayneStaley]

Sorry, I'm trying to remember any trades that occurred under any of the last 3 CBAs that got us to the Conf Finals or any trades in the last 25 years that got us to the Finals.

We were one quarter away 18 years ago and that doesn’t happen without pippen and smith, 2 players acquired via trade. That’s by far the most successful season this franchise has had in the past 2 decades.

To be fair we have had a lot more draft choices and mediocre fa signings over the past 18 years, maybe if we actually put our nuts on the table and pulled a few big trades every decade we would all have some to remember.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Oh, so that time that the CBA allowed trades that put you insanely over the salary cap, or the owner to basically shell out money at will to make things happen? Yes. Let's go back to that.

But until we do, your position seems....short-sighted and doomed to failure. Trades are fine in and of themselves, but only as a part of talent acquisition/Asset management (to include CBA-regulated money as well as non-, like assistant coaches, health coordinators, barbershop chairs in the PF, etc). Draft picks have to be maintained to keep pipelines of cost-controlled players in the fold. FAs can bring in new veteran blood.

 

[LayneStaley]

Draft picks have to be maintained to keep pipelines of cost-controlled players in the fold. FAs can bring in new veteran blood.

I agree with this...when you have a solid base of 3 guys to draft those players and sign those veterans around. We don’t! That’s why we should be doing anything possible to acquire another All-Star level player. We are completely overpaying average fa to come here, I’d rather overpay via trade for a player that can actually make a difference. If we weren’t throwing money away on guys who get DNPs every night maybe it would make trades a little easier.

Hark and Myers could not be on this team and NOTHING would change, and I’m not gonna even start on turner, we should be thankful for him, NO wanted to give Parsons even more! Neil deserves to be fired for that alone.

 

[BrianFromWA]

I agree with this...when you have a solid base of 3 guys to draft those players and sign those veterans around. We don’t! That’s why we should be doing anything possible to acquire another All-Star level player. We are completely overpaying average fa to come here, I’d rather overpay via trade for a player that can actually make a difference. If we weren’t throwing money away on guys who get DNPs every night maybe it would make trades a little easier.

Hark and Myers could not be on this team and NOTHING would change, and I’m not gonna even start on turner, we should be thankful for him, NO wanted to give Parsons even more! Neil deserves to be fired for that alone.

He also traded Will Barton and a first for an injured half-season of Afflalo. Which kind of puts a damper on the "we need to trade for difference makers!" idea.

That team that was #2 in the West at one long stretch, started Dame (drafted by POR), LMA (drafted by POR), Batum (drafted by POR), Wes (undrafted, then Toxic-offer FA'd by us---which can't be done the same way anymore) and RoLo (draft night trade). We also had Crabbe (drafted), Blake (drafted), Freeland (drafted), Kaman (FA) and those massive trades for Afflalo (already mentioned), Alonso Gee and Dorell Wright.

 

[BrianFromWA]

All that to say, in the recent CBAs PA's willingness to spend has been undercut a bit with a really restrictive tax structure.

We should focus in the following order:
1) Team amenities. Make it so that players want to come here, are comfortable when they are here, play their best here, and want to stay when they're done here. Nothing goes against the salary cap. Barbershop in the PF. Catered lunches. New whirlpools. Doctors and training staff that do aggressive prevention of injuries.
2) Draft picks. a) Fixed-cost contracts...you know exactly what you're spending and don't have to negotiate. b) it's a captive audience...you don't have to have the player's permission or another team's. c) You have at least 5 years of team control, and usually 8-9 if you want it.
3) FA. You don't have to do anything except a) have enough cap space (problematic) and b) get the player to want to come here. See #1.
4) Trades. You have to have your team buy off on it, their team buy off on it, the player not be disrupted due to the move, or chemistry concerns post-trade.

Trades have a place, but not exclusively, and definitely not as the centerpiece of a scorch-the-earth asset acquisition mentality.

 

[LayneStaley]

He also traded Will Barton and a first for an injured half-season of Afflalo. Which kind of puts a damper on the "we need to trade for difference makers!" idea.

That team that was #2 in the West at one long stretch, started Dame (drafted by POR), LMA (drafted by POR), Batum (drafted by POR), Wes (undrafted, then Toxic-offer FA'd by us---which can't be done the same way anymore) and RoLo (draft night trade). We also had Crabbe (drafted), Blake (drafted), Freeland (drafted), Kaman (FA) and those massive trades for Afflalo (already mentioned), Alonso Gee and Dorell Wright.

Yeah I’m not really talking about making trade offers for the Affalos of the league, even though that’s the Niel way. In related news Myers and Hark are making about $122k per DNP, that’s cool.

 

[LayneStaley]

We can’t sign all-stars in free agency, they won’t come here. That leaves trading for a sure thing or drafting someone and waiting 4 years to find out you missed.

 

[ripcityboy]

All that to say, in the recent CBAs PA's willingness to spend has been undercut a bit with a really restrictive tax structure.

We should focus in the following order:
1) Team amenities. Make it so that players want to come here, are comfortable when they are here, play their best here, and want to stay when they're done here. Nothing goes against the salary cap. Barbershop in the PF. Catered lunches. New whirlpools. Doctors and training staff that do aggressive prevention of injuries.
2) Draft picks. a) Fixed-cost contracts...you know exactly what you're spending and don't have to negotiate. b) it's a captive audience...you don't have to have the player's permission or another team's. c) You have at least 5 years of team control, and usually 8-9 if you want it.
3) FA. You don't have to do anything except a) have enough cap space (problematic) and b) get the player to want to come here. See #1.
4) Trades. You have to have your team buy off on it, their team buy off on it, the player not be disrupted due to the move, or chemistry concerns post-trade.

Trades have a place, but not exclusively, and definitely not as the centerpiece of a scorch-the-earth asset acquisition mentality.

The rules that make it impossible for teams to dump salary are just hurting the small market franchises the rules was created for. It makes the system that much more favorable to big market teams who can dump salary quickly and then turnover their rosters. Its a crock of shit!

 

[BrianFromWA]

Yeah I’m not really talking about making trade offers for the Affalos of the league, even though that’s the Niel way. In related news Myers and Hark are making about $122k per DNP, that’s cool.

See? Because we made dumb "trade for difference makers now!!11!" trades, we didn't have draft picks for cost-controlled young players. We didn't have players in place that we could could on to take Crabbe's spot when he got offered his deal. We didn't want to let our backup center go for free without getting a new one, which would have cost more (google "Mozgov"). We now are building a pipeline of talent, so that if someone wants Mo for cap space this summer, we have options. If we get a good value for Chief or Ed, we have options. If Pat or Shabazz gets offered big money, we don't have as many options. If we'd have had a closer-to-prime-time Pat, things look a lot different in 2016.