OT LeBron James said Kyle Rittenhouse should 'knock it off' after the teen cried during murder trial

[Orion Bailey]

actually if you read below, it was barfo who used a drug analogy as comparison. Not me… i asked him how its working out….

so im also not getting your point?

and this is largely why trying to have an actual conversation here is largely pointless…

im not sure how someone can take someone else’s comparison aNd then say i made it aNd its two different things and flawed….

lol….

 

[Phatguysrule]

The DA didn't drop the charges - the judge threw them out because he considers the law flawed.

OK. So was it really illegal then?

 

[Buffalo Custard]

actually if you read below, it was barfo who used a drug analogy as comparison. Not me… i asked him how its working out….

so im also not getting your point?

Which proves my point! How do you discuss something when there is no common ground? We are just talking past each other.

 

[Chris Craig]

and this is largely why trying to have an actual conversation here is largely pointless…

im not sure how someone can take someone else’s comparison aNd then say i made it aNd its two different things and flawed….

lol….

One of you is saying don't outlaw things because of outlaws


The other is saying the argument to outlaw things because of outlaws is adverse logic.

OB didn't say outlaw things because of outlaws, he said don't outlaw things because of outlaws.

And an argument about it persists

I think you missed each other on this one

 

[Orion Bailey]

Which proves my point! How do you discuss something when there is no common ground? We are just talking past each other.

okay but im not the one that started that back and forth comparing something to what i said that you now are saying i tried comparing?

 

[Phatguysrule]

again. For the millionth time. Keep your guns. If people want to play army man fine. Just need more regulation and enforcement of harsh penalties when not following the law. Someone should be petrified of having a gun, using a gun, etc outside the rules. And one of those rules should be that a 17 year old can’t prance around a protest with it strapped over his shoulder so he can pretend he’s a badass.

I don't disagree in principle. However, states tend to use laws like you describe to put guys like Telfair in jail just for having a gun in his car.

Telfair has been in trouble multiple times with guns but has never hurt anybody with a gun (to my knowledge).

If he weren't a millionaire he would probably have spent a lot of time in jail.

I'd prefer fewer laws than having otherwise innocent people being arrested for possessing a gun during a traffic stop. Laws like this tend to impact poor and minorities at far higher rates.

 

[Chris Craig]

The DA didn't drop the charges - the judge threw them out because he considers the law flawed.

The strange thing is the "flaw" is a provision on barrell lengths purposeful towards hunting, not carrying AK47s down the street to intimidate people and trying to look like a badass.

Throwing that out means setting a precedent for kids to walk around with guns now, as long as the barrell is a certain length.

 

[Orion Bailey]

One of you is saying don't outlaw things because of outlaws


The other is saying the argument to outlaw things because of outlaws is adverse logic.

An an argument about it persists


I think you missed each other on this one

im saying what i have said. No need to interpret it. Its straight forward.
The 2nd amendment was created for the people to be able to defend themselves against an oppressive ruler. That threat still exists today regardless if our government has a militia or not, it was created because the oppressor had a militia. Never have the people had a militia that follows the peoples orders… hence the need for the 2nd amendment.

So again. Guns are now in the hands of both good and bad people.
And so are cars.
Should we outlaw cars because some people refuse to drive sober? Or drive within the speed limit?

If we did, we would only have criminals driving around.
Same thing with guns.
Ill fully admit I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed so maybe thats why im failing to see how this is not a common belief or considered common sense?

 

[Chris Craig]

im saying what i have said. No need to interpret it. Its straight forward.
The 2nd amendment was created for the people to be able to defend themselves against an oppressive ruler. That threat still exists today regardless if our government has a militia or not, it was created because the oppressor had a militia. Never have the people had a militia that follows the peoples orders… hence the need for the 2nd amendment.

So again. Guns are now in the hands of both good and bad people.
And so are cars.
Should we outlaw cars because some people refuse to drive sober? Or drive within the speed limit?

If we did, we would only have criminals driving around.
Same thing with guns.
Ill fully admit I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed so maybe thats why im failing to see how this is not common a belief?

It just seems like you said don't outlaw things because of outlaws

And @Barfos argument is that you said to outlaw things because outlaws and that's not a great argument. And, I agree it's not, but it doesn't seem to be the argument you were making.

 

[Orion Bailey]

It just seems like you said don't outlaw things because of outlaws

And @Barfos argument is that you said to outlaw things because outlaws and that's not a great argument. And, I agree it's not, but it doesn't seem to be the argument you were making.

but thats not what i said. Thats twisting what i said. It seems like i said. But that isnt what i said.


i think there is even more confusion. I never said outlaw anything.
Again. I seem to be pointed at as comparing or saying things barfo said. Not me.

lets stop trying to read between the lines and just take words for what they are.

if good and bad people have guns and we outlaw guns, who will still have guns?
Criminals?

 

[Buffalo Custard]

OK, one last try.

Using your analogy - you think I want to outlaw cars and I think you want to legalize drunk driving. Even if both notions are wrong it makes discussion hopeless as long as we cling to those views.

 

[Chris Craig]

but thats not what i said. Thats twisting what i said. It seems like i said. But that isnt what i said.


i think there is even more confusion. I never said outlaw anything.
Again. I seem to be pointed at as comparing or saying things barfo said. Not me.

lets stop trying to read between the lines and just take words for what they are.

if good and bad people have guns and we outlaw guns, who will still have guns?
Criminals?

Lol. That's what I said. I said you said don't outlaw things because of outlaws not the contrary which Barfo seemed to think.

Anyway.

I agree that if we outlaw guns it will take guns away from responsible people and they won't be able to defend themselves with a gun against bad people who have guns.

I'm not advocating outlawing guns. I have only said there is a huge gun problem and many many people are being gunned down everyday.

One solution among many is not to allow unresponsible people to walk around with assault rifles that end up killing people.

 

[calvin natt]

I don't disagree in principle. However, states tend to use laws like you describe to put guys like Telfair in jail just for having a gun in his car.

Telfair has been in trouble multiple times with guns but has never hurt anybody with a gun (to my knowledge).

If he weren't a millionaire he would probably have spent a lot of time in jail.

I'd prefer fewer laws than having otherwise innocent people being arrested for possessing a gun during a traffic stop. Laws like this tend to impact poor and minorities at far higher rates.

I have zero problem with him getting busted for having a gun. Why do we think everyone should have firearm? Is it unreasonable to say hey, you can have a gun but if you break laws and get in trouble you lose the right to possess something that kills people.

 

[Orion Bailey]

One of you is saying don't outlaw things because of outlaws


The other is saying the argument to outlaw things because of outlaws is adverse logic.

OB didn't say outlaw things because of outlaws, he said don't outlaw things because of outlaws.

And an argument about it persists

I think you missed each other on this one

im saying dont outlaw guns because it leaves good people defenseless.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Lol. That's what I said. I said you said don't outlaw things because of outlaws not the contrary which Barfo seemed to think.

Anyway.

I agree that if we outlaw guns it will take guns away from responsible people and they won't be able to defend themselves with a gun against bad people who have guns.

I'm not advocating outlawing guns. I have only said there is a huge gun problem and many many people are being gunned down everyday.

One solution among many is not to allow unresponsible people to walk around with assault rifles that end up killing people.

okay. Well then this whole back and forth was moot. You agree with what i said. Lol. Barfo doesn't. He chose to bow out of the convo rather than try to provide more input to firm up his stance…

making it hard to have a real conversation… as usual.

 

[Chris Craig]

im saying dont outlaw guns because it leaves good people defenseless.

Yes, against outlaws. So don't outlaw things because of outlaws.

 

[Chris Craig]

okay. Well then this whole back and forth was moot. You agree with what i said. Lol. Barfo doesn't. He chose to bow out of the convo rather than try to provide more input to firm up his stance…

making it hard to have a real conversation… as usual.

And that's ok

 

[Orion Bailey]

Lol. That's what I said. I said you said don't outlaw things because of outlaws not the contrary which Barfo seemed to think.

Anyway.

I agree that if we outlaw guns it will take guns away from responsible people and they won't be able to defend themselves with a gun against bad people who have guns.

I'm not advocating outlawing guns. I have only said there is a huge gun problem and many many people are being gunned down everyday.

One solution among many is not to allow unresponsible people to walk around with assault rifles that end up killing people.

No!
Thats not what i said that he said that i said i meant what he meant and you misunderstood what he meant that i was understanding and responding too.

Got it now??

if you understand this… your a genius!

 

[Orion Bailey]

And that's ok

until the same people point the finger at me as not being able to hold a conversation… that shit gets old…

 

[Chris Craig]

The point is, 'if you outlaw X, then only outlaws will have/do X' is not a good argument. It implies there's no point in outlawing anything.

barfo

Ok, I suppose even if guns are outlawed....good people might still have them even if it's illegal to do so.

 

[Chris Craig]

until the same people point the finger at me as not being able to hold a conversation… that shit gets old…

Hey you tried and barfo tried. You two just couldn't reach an understanding. That happens.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Yes, against outlaws. So don't outlaw things because of outlaws.

arent all things banned or outlawed because of outlaws? Or people who break the law, regardless?

 

[Chris Craig]

No!
Thats not what i said that he said that i said i meant what he meant and you misunderstood what he meant that i was understanding and responding too.

Got it now??

if you understand this… your a genius!

It would probably help to read it all when I'm not exhausted from a long day of work.

 

[Chris Craig]

arent all things banned or outlawed because of outlaws? Or people who break the law, regardless?

I suppose...or to stop people from doing those things, but I guess those people would be outlaws...so yeah

 

[Phatguysrule]

I have zero problem with him getting busted for having a gun. Why do we think everyone should have firearm? Is it unreasonable to say hey, you can have a gun but if you break laws and get in trouble you lose the right to possess something that kills people.

He didn't do anything wrong with the gun. He made a u-turn and smelled like weed.

Allowing police to go after people like that is how you encourage police to unfairly target poor and minority populations.

Not cool at all, IMO.

If he threatened somebody with the gun or was stalking somebody, found guilty of domestic abuse, etc... Then sure. That's a violent and/or dangerous person who should have their rights restricted.

But just because they get a speeding ticket with a gun? No way.

 

[Chris Craig]

He didn't do anything wrong with the gun. He made a u-turn and smelled like weed.

Allowing police to go after people like that is how you encourage police to unfairly target poor and minority populations.

Not cool at all, IMO.

If he threatened somebody with the gun or was stalking somebody, found guilty of domestic abuse, etc... Then sure. That's a violent and/or dangerous person who should have their rights restricted.

But just because they get a speeding ticket with a gun? No way.

But, the gun was illegal. If he legally owned it and had a permit, that's different. You break a law there should be consquence. You could argue what that consquence should be. A prison sentence? What's too long of a sentence? Maybe just confiscate the gun, but then there is no consquence other than losing a gun he will easily replace.

I understand and agree with your argument about racial profiling. Smelling pot is cause for searching a car for drugs in most states. If while searching the car, something else illegal is found, should there not be consquences?

Cops could and probably do say they smell pot even if they don't, especially in cases of racial profiling so they can have a reason to search a car. That is bullshit and should be rooted out. But how? We will never be able to get rid of all the bad cops. Legalizing /decriminalizing weed, so it can't be used as a reason?

These unhonest cops have other excuses up their sleeves. They say they were swerving and suspect them of intoxication or create a situation to make the person they pulled over as being combative and go with that.

Get rid off all the dishonest cops? Is it possible with enough accountability?

This is a complex issue

 

[Phatguysrule]

I suppose...or to stop people from doing those things, but I guess those people would be outlaws...so yeah

I will always own firearms. Regardless of legality.

When you need police right that second they are only minutes away.

 

[Chris Craig]

I know I wouldn't be first in line to give up my firearms. I know too many mofos that wouldn't turn in theirs for me to willingly give up mine.

But, then you become an outlaw. A good outlaw? A gunslinger?

 

[Chris Craig]

I will always own firearms. Regardless of legality.

When you need police right that second they are only minutes away.

And I think maybe that was what @barfo was getting at. Just because you outlaw it, doesn't mean good people aren't going to do it. Do they become outlaws? Maybe?

 

[Phatguysrule]

But, the gun was illegal. If he legally owned it and had a permit, that's different. You break a law there should be consquence. You could argue what that consquence should be. A prison sentence? What's too long of a sentence? Maybe just confiscate the gun, but then there is no consquence other than losing a gun he will easily replace.

I understand and agree with your argument about racial profiling. Smelling pot is cause for searching a car for drugs in most states. If while searching the car, something else illegal is found, should there not be consquences?

Cops could and probably do say they smell pot even if they don't, especially in cases of racial profiling so they can have a reason to search a car. That is bullshit and should be rooted out. But how? We will never be able to get rid of all the bad cops. Legalizing /decriminalizing weed, so it can't be used as a reason?

These unhonest cops have other excuses up their sleeves. They say they were swerving and suspect them of intoxication or create a situation to make the person they pulled over as being combative and go with that.

Get rid off all the dishonest cops? Is it possible with enough accountability?

This is a complex issue

Good point. But why was the gun illegal? What was illegal about it?

It was loaded. In his truck. That's it.

NYs gun laws are far too strict, and that's why I use it as an example. In fact, that overreach is going to end up getting the Supreme Court to expand gun rights.