Leonard's Breakout Game?

[Draco]

Blazers have a 3-4 record with Meyers Leonard in the rotation.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Blazers have a 3-4 record with Meyers Leonard in the rotation.

I can't stand Leonar_, but most of that is due to us having a really easy schedule early on

 

[Boob-No-More]

Blazers have a 3-4 record with Meyers Leonard in the rotation.

Define "in the rotation". The team is 3-2 in the games since Leonard was inserted back into the rotation and also 3-2 in games he's played more than 6 minutes. Blaming a loss on a guy who played less than 5 minutes seems like a bit of a stretch (so would be giving him credit for a win in such limited minutes).

BNM

 

[BlazerWookee]

He's at a 15 PER in a limited role off of the bench, and has only a 12% Usage Rate. What more do you want out of the 9th guy in the rotation?

Other than that, you look like a genius with you constant negative "Leonar_" posts!

If we had picked Meyers in the second round instead of with a lottery pick, I don't think MM would be anywhere near as hard on him.

Just my opinion.

 

[Draco]

Define "in the rotation". The team is 3-2 in the games since Leonard was inserted back into the rotation and also 3-2 in games he's played more than 6 minutes. Blaming a loss on a guy who played less than 5 minutes seems like a bit of a stretch (so would be giving him credit for a win in such limited minutes).

BNM

Meyers was in the rotation for one game when Freeland was injured and we lost to Houston. Meyers took TRob's spot in the rotation beginning with the Minnesota game on 12/18 which is the last 6 games we've played. The total record in those 7 games is 3-4.

When Meyers is not at all part of the 9 man rotation the team is 22-3.

 

[Natebishop3]

Meyers was in the rotation for one game when Freeland was injured and we lost to Houston. Meyers took TRob's spot in the rotation beginning with the Minnesota game on 12/18 which is the last 6 games we've played. The total record in those 7 games is 3-4.

When Meyers is not at all part of the 9 man rotation the team is 22-3.

I feel like our offensive rebounding has disappeared without TRob.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Meyers was in the rotation for one game when Freeland was injured and we lost to Houston. Meyers took TRob's spot in the rotation beginning with the Minnesota game on 12/18 which is the last 6 games we've played. The total record in those 7 games is 3-4.

When Meyers is not at all part of the 9 man rotation the team is 22-3.

Meyers played his most minutes of the year against Houston because Freeland was out and Lopez was in early foul trouble. Yeah, I'll concede he lost that match-up with Dwight Howard. Leonard was -7 in 14:11 going head to head with Dwight Howard.

In the Minnesota game, Thomas Robinson played 4:15 and was -14. Leonard played 5:21 and was +6 (the only bench player with a positive +/-). Are we really blaming the loss on Meyers Leonard being in the rotation? In the five games Leonard played and Robinson didn't, the Blazers are 3-2, with wins over NOP, LAC and OKC and last second losses (when Leonard wasn't even in the game) to MIA and NOP.

BNM

 

[PapaG]

Nice game by Leonard tonight.

 

[bemac]

Nice game by Leonard tonight.

I think that is more in comparison to his previous play rather than comparison to a quality backup center. He set expectations so low, he doesn't have to do a lot to have a good game. Just not sold on any part of his game...

 

[PapaG]

I think that is more in comparison to his previous play rather than comparison to a quality backup center. He set expectations so low, he doesn't have to do a lot to have a good game. Just not sold on any part of his game...

Then you never will be. He's the best rebounder on the team according to per/36 and Reb%.

Are you sold on his FT shooting and FG%? How about his PER/USG ratio?

 

[KingSpeed]

Define "in the rotation". The team is 3-2 in the games since Leonard was inserted back into the rotation and also 3-2 in games he's played more than 6 minutes. Blaming a loss on a guy who played less than 5 minutes seems like a bit of a stretch (so would be giving him credit for a win in such limited minutes).

BNM

But do we do better with TRob in those few minutes?

 

[Boob-No-More]

But do we do better with TRob in those few minutes?

That question is impossible to answer. Any attempt to answer it is pure speculation.

BNM

 

[JDC]

Meyers has been better than Robinson and it's really not close.

Sure, Meyers has his moments were you wonder what he's thinking, but on the whole, he's a lot more steady out there. And if he keeps up his rebounding, I don't see any advantage you have in having TRob in over him. Most will say defense and offensive rebounding and the latter might be true (his trouble finish in traffic limits this). But the D has been atrocious with him out there. TRob is really quick, but he's undersized, gets lost routinely, doesn't hold his position well and fouls too much (Meyer's has this issue too admittedly).

Points per 100 Possessions

TR: O: 103.4 D: 113.0
ML: O: 103.4 D: 101.3

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

I really like him at the four.

He could be a nightmare in a few years to defend. The guy is 7'1" and change with real shooting touch.

 

[Further]

In this last game Meyers had 10 boards in 20 minutes while TRob had 5 in 9 minutes. Both played well and both are totally raw and make boneheaded plays, but have serious potential. Both try hard and are supposed to be good teammates. There is no reason for everyone to choose sides, player A is awesome and player B sucks. Right now I think Meyers is ever so slightly outplaying TRob, but I can totally see how others could see the opposite.

 

[Mediocre Man]

In this last game Meyers had 10 boards in 20 minutes while TRob had 5 in 9 minutes. Both played well and both are totally raw and make boneheaded plays, but have serious potential. Both try hard and are supposed to be good teammates. There is no reason for everyone to choose sides, player A is awesome and player B sucks. Right now I think Meyers is ever so slightly outplaying TRob, but I can totally see how others could see the opposite.

But did you watch the game? Not trying to be a smartass. Leonar_'s rebounds came to him. T-Rob went and got his. It's a huge difference

 

[PtldPlatypus]

But did you watch the game? Not trying to be a smartass. Leonar_'s rebounds came to him. T-Rob went and got his. It's a huge difference

I disagree. I recall a couple of Leonard's boards that he snatched from other people (not teammates), and others that he got because he claimed and owned real estate prior to the miss. He's really improving on his box-outs. I have no problem with him getting rebounds that "come to him" because he prepared properly in order for that to occur.

 

[Pinwheel1]

The bottom line is both need playing time to improve. Terry can not play both as it takes a few games for each one to feel comfortable in the rotation,and since they are two entirely types of players, it takes their teammates time to adjust as well.

My biggest issue with the 2nd unit has been the bad shots and the turnovers. They have not looked cohesive. When they insert CJ into the lineup it will also take quite a few games for another young player to fit in. But he has to tinker with the line up to see what he has.

I like TRob's game more than Meyer's. I like what he brings from a physical standpoint. However I think the spacing will end up being better with Leonard in there. He has such an excellent touch for his size. But i don't want to banish Trob to the bench forever.

Maybe give each one a 10 game stretch until we know for sure?

 

[Boob-No-More]

But did you watch the game? Not trying to be a smartass. Leonar_'s rebounds came to him. T-Rob went and got his. It's a huge difference

LOL! Seriously, now that you can no longer criticize his production (TRB% = 20.6) you're going to start taking away style points? Man, your hatred for this kid is so intense you will never give him any credit for anything positive he does.

So, he got lucky 10 times in 19 minutes last night and the ball just magically "came to him"? Did you ever even consider that the ball comes to him so frequently because he's getting in proper rebounding position? TRB% = 20.6 is elite level and the sample size is still small, but you don't rebound at that level based solely on good luck. He must be doing something right. I commented after the first NOP game that Meyers was much more focused on rebounding and actively chasing down rebounds. His production has been way up, and most of the minutes he's played recently have been in close games against top notch competition (last night being the exception, but you can say the same for everyone who played last night).

Your two biggest criticisms of Leonard have always been his rebounding and defense. He's improved both areas dramatically since the start of the season, but you'll never admit it. You have so much invested in your hatred you can't enjoy the fact that one of the youngest players on our team is actually improving. That's a good thing, isn't it? Why not acknowledge it and be happy about it?

BNM

 

[Shooter]

I'm going to stick with my original argument. I think Leonard is definitely in a breakout mode right now. He made another beautiful bank shot tonight and hit a very smooth looking jump shot. And the comment that he's only getting rebounds that come to him is ridiculous. He fought very hard for at least a couple of those boards and the rest is all about being in the right place at the right time. Leonard is making big strides.

 

[Boob-No-More]

The bottom line is both need playing time to improve. Terry can not play both as it takes a few games for each one to feel comfortable in the rotation,and since they are two entirely types of players, it takes their teammates time to adjust as well.

My biggest issue with the 2nd unit has been the bad shots and the turnovers. They have not looked cohesive. When they insert CJ into the lineup it will also take quite a few games for another young player to fit in. But he has to tinker with the line up to see what he has.

I like TRob's game more than Meyer's. I like what he brings from a physical standpoint. However I think the spacing will end up being better with Leonard in there. He has such an excellent touch for his size. But i don't want to banish Trob to the bench forever.

Maybe give each one a 10 game stretch until we know for sure?

Yes, both are young and need PT to improve. Unfortunately, there are only so many minutes to go around, especially with the Blazers playing so many close games. Robinson was in the rotation for the first 26 games of the season. He had his chance to show improvement, and he didn't. He was exactly the same player 26 games into the season as he was in the summer league and preseason. He still rebounds well (TRB% = 17.8%) but is still just as raw offensively as he was in summer league. He still forces his shots too much and has trouble finishing in the paint against bigger players. His USG% (23.2, 3rd on the team trailing only Aldridge and Lillard) is way too high for someone who shoots such a low percentage. He does attempt most of his shots in the paint, but shoots below league average from those locations. To give you an idea where Robinson is at offensively, he has a higher USG% and lower FG% than Will Barton (who has never met a shot he didn't like).

But, he's not hopeless. Like Leonard he is still young and raw and has the chance to improve. Unlike Robinson, Leonard has shown dramatic improvement since summer league and preseason. Leonard still looked completely lost during the summer league and preseason and his production was very low. His production is way up and he's doing a much better job getting proper defensive position and is now rebounding at an elite level If someone told me back before the season started that come January, Meyers Leonard would be leading the team in TRB% and REB/36, I would have told them they're nuts. Based on summer league and preseason, I would have bet money that it would be Thomas Robinson leading the team in both of those stats, but here it is, January 3 and Meyers Leonard is now the best rebounder on our team. I'm thrilled that Leonard has been putting in the work to improve and we're seeing the results. I hope he continues to improve.

His improvement has been very similar to Joel Freeland's, but trailing Joel by about six months. I know a lot of posters have criticized our big man coach, but I don't think it's just a coincidence that first Freeland and now Leonard have shown significant improvement in the basic fundamentals of rebounding and defensive positioning and technique. Which gives me added hope for Thomas Robinson. Like Leonard, Robinson is gifted with NBA level athleticism, he just needs to learn the basic skills needed to take full advantage of his athleticism. Hopefully, both of these young players will reach their potential and become mainstays in our rotation for the next decade.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

I'm going to stick with my original argument. I think Leonard is definitely in a breakout mode right now. He made another beautiful bank shot tonight and hit a very smooth looking jump shot. And the comment that he's only getting rebounds that come to him is ridiculous. He fought very hard for at least a couple of those boards and the rest is all about being in the right place at the right time. Leonard is making big strides.

Yep, it's hard to argue that Leonard still looks lost out there when he's consistently in the right place at the right time. He still makes mistakes, but that's part of the learning process for a young big man. As long as he continues to produce and improve, I can live with the occasional boneheaded mistake. His improvement also disproves the ridiculous argument that those things just can't be taught. I said all along that playing good position defense and proper rebounding technique are exactly the types of fundamental skills that can be taught. Leonard still has a ways to go, but like Freeland before him, he has gone from totally lost and clueless to showing dramatic improvement in both areas within the span of a few months. I liked what I saw out of Freeland back in preseason and I'm liking what I'm seeing out of Leonard now. Let's hope all of our young big men continue to show improvement in the fundamental areas of the game. We still have nearly 50 games to play and any improvement our bigs make between now and then will improve our odds of advancing in the playoffs.

BNM

 

[Eastoff]

But did you watch the game? Not trying to be a smartass. Leonar_'s rebounds came to him. T-Rob went and got his. It's a huge difference

I disagree. I recall a couple of Leonard's boards that he snatched from other people (not teammates), and others that he got because he claimed and owned real estate prior to the miss. He's really improving on his box-outs. I have no problem with him getting rebounds that "come to him" because he prepared properly in order for that to occur.

http://stats.nba.com/gameDetail.html?GameID=0021300480
go to that link, and click on Meyers rebounds and watch the video and then TRob's rebounds and watch the video. I haven't done this yet, busy at work, but it should make it clear if they were working to get them.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

http://stats.nba.com/gameDetail.html?GameID=0021300480
go to that link, and click on Meyers rebounds and watch the video and then TRob's rebounds and watch the video. I haven't done this yet, busy at work, but it should make it clear if they were working to get them.

Thanks.

Leonard's 2nd board--boxed out his man, then went across the key for the ball. 3rd rebound--skied in from the baseline (arguably took it away from Lopez, who was battling with his man for position). 5th rebound--got position in the key and snatched the ball just before McRoberts could sneak in for it. 10th rebound--went up and got it before two potential offensive rebounders could do so.

I'd say six of Leonard's boards "came to him", and he had to work for four of them.

 

[Sinobas]

This is all happening because the Blazers finally listened to me and moved him to PF.

 

[BBert]

http://stats.nba.com/gameDetail.html?GameID=0021300480
go to that link, and click on Meyers rebounds and watch the video and then TRob's rebounds and watch the video. I haven't done this yet, busy at work, but it should make it clear if they were working to get them.

I must rep you.

That was interesting. Every one of Meyers' rebounds were the result of focusing on good position defense, boxing out, and paying attention to the play. On one, he was set up on the three point line in the corner and crashed the board; one was on a missed free throw. It seemed like all or nearly all of his rebounds led to points or at least good shots. Robinson's first two rebounds were assisted by Meyers boxing out, and leaving Robinson open for the rebound, which either could have taken. Robinson's next two rebounds were on missed free throws, one of which he took away from Meyers. Robinson's fifth rebound was from crashing the boards on a Meyers missed three attempt. He 'earned' that one.

 

[BBert]

I'd say six of Leonard's boards "came to him", and he had to work for four of them.

I disagree. They only came to him because he put himself in the right position for them to 'come to him'. A minor quibble, I suppose.

 

[Eastoff]

Thanks.

Leonard's 2nd board--boxed out his man, then went across the key for the ball. 3rd rebound--skied in from the baseline (arguably took it away from Lopez, who was battling with his man for position). 5th rebound--got position in the key and snatched the ball just before McRoberts could sneak in for it. 10th rebound--went up and got it before two potential offensive rebounders could do so.

I'd say six of Leonard's boards "came to him", and he had to work for four of them.

I must rep you.

That was interesting. Every one of Meyers' rebounds were the result of focusing on good position defense, boxing out, and paying attention to the play. On one, he was set up on the three point line in the corner and crashed the board; one was on a missed free throw. It seemed like all or nearly all of his rebounds led to points or at least good shots. Robinson's first two rebounds were assisted by Meyers boxing out, and leaving Robinson open for the rebound, which either could have taken. Robinson's next two rebounds were on missed free throws, one of which he took away from Meyers. Robinson's fifth rebound was was crashing the boards on a Meyers missed three attempt.

I'm just glad I can contribute! =] Thanks for the analysis, so I don't have to do it.

 

[Boob-No-More]

http://stats.nba.com/gameDetail.html?GameID=0021300480
go to that link, and click on Meyers rebounds and watch the video and then TRob's rebounds and watch the video. I haven't done this yet, busy at work, but it should make it clear if they were working to get them.

Wow, that's cool. I didn't know you could do that. Major rep from me! Thanks!

I don't have time to watch all the videos now, but I did watch the videos of Leonard's first two rebounds and they were both contested. The first was an offensive rebound in traffic (and he also had a nice assist to Freeland on that play displaying excellent court awareness) and the second was a direct result of fighting for good position and boxing out his man. That rebound did not "come to him". He had to chase it down after properly boxing out his man. So far, I'm observing on these replays exactly what I recall seeing in real time. Leonard is doing a much better job at getting proper rebounding position and aggressively chasing down rebounds.

BNM

 

[blue9]

I tend to agree, but I'm also wondering if we're trying to showcase him.

That was certainly my original thought when he first cracked the rotation - and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find out it's true. What I'm wondering now is whether this "showcasing" is making us reconsider. He definitely hasn't played his way into "keeper" status, but he's shown a lot more than he ever has in the past. His offense is quite decent, and it seems that he's learning from Joel how to remain vertical when challenging shots. Where I previously didn't see any reason to keep him, I'm now seeing a glimmer of potential.