Leonard's Breakout Game?

[BBert]

I don't think they have been 'showcasing' Meyers. I think their stats guru looked at Robinson's first 20+ games, the coaches looked at Meyers' progress in practice, and they decided to give Meyers some court time so they would have something to compare. So far, Meyers is selling himself, IMO.

 

[Sinobas]

Oh damn, I didn't know nba.com could do that!

 

[blue9]

The bottom line is both need playing time to improve ...
Maybe give each one a 10 game stretch until we know for sure?

Yeah, I'd be in favor of rotating them at 10-game intervals. Perhaps sending whoever is "out" to the D-League so they can keep playing and not lose any rhythm they gained during their 10-game stint.

 

[BBert]

Is it just a coincidence, or my imagination, or did Meyers crack the rotation immediately after he threw that one dude down hard on that road trip, after he took exception to some physical play on the other end?

 

[Boob-No-More]

Oh damn, I didn't know nba.com could do that!

I know, that may just be the coolest use of the internet ever. For a basketball junkie like me, it's the equivalent of online porn to a horny teenager. Huge props to nba.com for stepping up. They have made HUGE improvements to their web site this season. First it was their sortable player stats, including shot charts, and now this. I used to skip nba.com for advanced stats, relying on basketball-reference.com, 82games.com and hoopsstats.com, but now I can add nba.com to the mix. Awesome!

BNM

 

[tester551]

Meyers has been better than Robinson and it's really not close.

Sure, Meyers has his moments were you wonder what he's thinking, but on the whole, he's a lot more steady out there. And if he keeps up his rebounding, I don't see any advantage you have in having TRob in over him. Most will say defense and offensive rebounding and the latter might be true (his trouble finish in traffic limits this). But the D has been atrocious with him out there. TRob is really quick, but he's undersized, gets lost routinely, doesn't hold his position well and fouls too much (Meyer's has this issue too admittedly).

Points per 100 Possessions

TR: O: 103.4 D: 113.0
ML: O: 103.4 D: 101.3

Solid post. Completely agree. The biggest difference is on the defensive side of the ball. The defensive rating number is a huge tell....

But you could also watch the game and see 3 different times that T-Rob had no-clue where is defensive assignment was during the 5-minutes he played. He had no idea who he was supposed to be guarding.

Meyers isn't great, but he is improving.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I don't think they have been 'showcasing' Meyers. I think their stats guru looked at Robinson's first 20+ games, the coaches looked at Meyers' progress in practice, and they decided to give Meyers some court time so they would have something to compare. So far, Meyers is selling himself, IMO.

Bingo! Imagine that, the guys who get paid for their basketball knowledge made a decision and it turns out they were right, in spite of the contrary opinions of some of the posters on this board. When I think of all the boneheaded moves our GMs and coaches have made in the past, I'm glad we finally have the right people making these decisions.

Right now, our GM deserves to win executive of the year and our coach deserves to win COY. Olshey's moves over the summer were masterful, yet many criticized him for not hitting a home run (I commented at the time he may not have hit any home runs, but was leading the league in ground rule doubles). He knew exactly what this team needed and went out and got it, without sacrificing a single important piece, without mortgaging our future (in fact, he acquired young lottery level talent for pennies on the dollar) all while preserving future flexibility by not taking on any bad contracts.

And, as much criticism as the Stotts hire received, he has shown us what it's like to have a head coach that understands Xs and Os. He has created an offense that leads the league in scoring and Offensive efficiency that is fun to watch and takes advantage of his players strengths. The players have completely bought into his system and after years of one-dimensional, boring Nate ball, seeing so much player and ball movement is a thing of beauty.

So, when these guys decided to give Leonard some burn, I'm not at all surprised it's turned out to be the right decision. And, if at some point, they decide it's time for Meyer's to go back to the end of the bench, I'm sure that will be the right decision, too. I don't blindly accept every decision they make, but when their decisions are logical and the results positive, it's hard to criticize what they're doing.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

Solid post. Completely agree. The biggest difference is on the defensive side of the ball. The defensive rating number is a huge tell....

But you could also watch the game and see 3 different times that T-Rob had no-clue where is defensive assignment was during the 5-minutes he played. He had no idea who he was supposed to be guarding.

Meyers isn't great, but he is improving.

And, hopefully this demotion will motivate Robinson to work on improving his weaknesses. The guy is just overflowing with potential, but is very weak fundamentally (same things that were said about Leonard when he was drafted). But, he's seen guys like Freeland and now Leonard get minutes by improving their fundamentals. So, hopefully he will focus on doing the same and eventually start to realize some of that untapped potential.

BNM

 

[blue9]

And, hopefully this demotion will motivate Robinson to work on improving his weaknesses. The guy is just overflowing with potential, but is very weak fundamentally (same things that were said about Leonard when he was drafted). But, he's seen guys like Freeland and now Leonard get minutes by improving their fundamentals. So, hopefully he will focus on doing the same and eventually start to realize some of that untapped potential.

I'm really happy to see that Robinson is cheering from the sidelines, and excited for his teammates, rather than pouting about his demotion. It makes me think he has the right mentality to use the demotion positively. Regarding his fundamentals, I think he actually has pretty solid individual fundamentals - he knows how to dribble, pass, rebound, defend, etc. He just doesn't know how to apply those fundamentals in a team-oriented setting - he doesn't have team fundamentals.

 

[Mediocre Man]

http://stats.nba.com/gameDetail.html?GameID=0021300480
go to that link, and click on Meyers rebounds and watch the video and then TRob's rebounds and watch the video. I haven't done this yet, busy at work, but it should make it clear if they were working to get them.

What a great feature that is, thanks.

I had 8 of Leonard's rebounds coming to him and 4 of Robinson's 5, so I stand corrected. they each had the same % come to them.

however, both really seemed to be in great position and did well boxing out

 

[TripTango]

I'm going to stick with my original argument. I think Leonard is definitely in a breakout mode right now. He made another beautiful bank shot tonight and hit a very smooth looking jump shot.

Yeah, but did you actually watch those shots? On both of those plays, the ball clearly wanted to go into the hoop before Leo even shot it. He was just lucky to be in the right place at the right time.

 

[HailBlazers]

I'm really happy to see that Robinson is cheering from the sidelines, and excited for his teammates, rather than pouting about his demotion. It makes me think he has the right mentality to use the demotion positively. Regarding his fundamentals, I think he actually has pretty solid individual fundamentals - he knows how to dribble, pass, rebound, defend, etc. He just doesn't know how to apply those fundamentals in a team-oriented setting - he doesn't have team fundamentals.

Likewise, and it's why I hold the theory that this was part of Stotts plan from the beginning. Give Robinson some consistent burn to get his confidence up and then switch to Meyers after his comfort level has been established. Both need development badly and both have oodles of potential.

 

[e_blazer]

What's becoming apparent as Leonard, Freeland, and TRob have all improved this year is that the Blazers have actually gone from having zero depth at the 4/5 position (last year) to having guys who can play and belong in this league. One of the most exciting developments to me is that the Blazers now look to be built for a long haul as a contending team. Three solid big guys on the bench, CJ, Williams and Wright as other solid bench guys, looks pretty good to me. I, for one, did not see that coming at all at the start of the season. I've come to the position that I hope Olshey doesn't make any roster moves before the deadline. I want to see how far these guys can go in the playoffs as they are and then be able to take the summer to decide if any changes need to be made.

 

[Boob-No-More]

What's becoming apparent as Leonard, Freeland, and TRob have all improved this year is that the Blazers have actually gone from having zero depth at the 4/5 position (last year) to having guys who can play and belong in this league. One of the most exciting developments to me is that the Blazers now look to be built for a long haul as a contending team. Three solid big guys on the bench, CJ, Williams and Wright as other solid bench guys, looks pretty good to me. I, for one, did not see that coming at all at the start of the season. I've come to the position that I hope Olshey doesn't make any roster moves before the deadline. I want to see how far these guys can go in the playoffs as they are and then be able to take the summer to decide if any changes need to be made.

I think it's amazing that this team has the best record in the Western Conference and we still have THREE lottery picks on our bench that have barely scratched the surface of their potential. Those Whitsitt teams were always at their best when they had young guys like Jermaine and Bonzi hungry for minutes and pushing the starters in practice. Those teams self-imploded when Whitsitt replaced some of that youth with older players that were hungry in other ways (Shawn Kemp) and all felt entitled to play starters minutes.

BNM

 

[Mediocre Man]

I think it's amazing that this team has the best record in the Western Conference and we still have THREE lottery picks on our bench that have barely scratched the surface of their potential. Those Whitsitt teams were always at their best when they had young guys like Jermaine and Bonzi hungry for minutes and pushing the starters in practice. Those teams self-imploded when Whitsitt replaced some of that youth with older players that were hungry in other ways (Shawn Kemp) and all felt entitled to play starters minutes.

BNM

How do we know they have barely scratched the surface of their potential? Hoping, I guess?

 

[e_blazer]

How do we know they have barely scratched the surface of their potential? Hoping, I guess?

The fact that they've all demonstrably improved their games from the start of the season would seem to be pretty good evidence that there's still more improvement to come.

 

[Mediocre Man]

The fact that they've all demonstrably improved their games from the start of the season would seem to be pretty good evidence that there's still more improvement to come.

So from that they have only barely scratched it huh? ok

 

[Boob-No-More]

How do we know they have barely scratched the surface of their potential? Hoping, I guess?

Based on size and athleticism and flashes they have shown. There's a reason all three were lottery picks. People who get paid good money to evaluate talent, and are much better at it than me or you, all thought they had potential to be excellent NBA players. If not, they would not have been lottery picks.

Leonard has a rare combination of size and athleticism. Guys who are 7'1" and can walk without tripping over their own feet are rare. He lacks many fundamental skills, but is working on those and showing improvement. He can still get a LOT better. Thomas Robinson is an athletic freak. He used his superior athletic gifts to dominate in college, but needs to adapt his game to the NBA. There is a reason he was picked 5th in the draft - that reason was his potential. And C.J. McCollum was a prolific scorer in college who shot excellent percentages. But, will his game translate to the NBA? Don't know. That's why it's called potential.

Do you really think all three of these very young players have come close to reaching their full potential? That what we see today is as good as they are ever going to get?

BNM

 

[Mediocre Man]

Based on size and athleticism and flashes they have shown. There's a reason all three were lottery picks. People who get paid good money to evaluate talent, and are much better at it than me or you, all thought they had potential to be excellent NBA players. If not, they would not have been lottery picks.

Leonard has a rare combination of size and athleticism. Guys who are 7'1" and can walk without tripping over their own feet are rare. He lacks many fundamental skills, but is working on those and showing improvement. He can still get a LOT better. Thomas Robinson is an athletic freak. He used his superior athletic gifts to dominate in college, but needs to adapt his game to the NBA. There is a reason he was picked 5th in the draft - that reason was his potential. And C.J. McCollum was a prolific scorer in college who shot excellent percentages. But, will his game translate to the NBA? Don't know. That's why it's called potential.

Do you really think all three of these very young players have come close to reaching their full potential? That what we see today is as good as they are ever going to get?

BNM

I, like you, have no idea.

There have been a shit load of lottery picks that didn't pan out.

Big white American born centers at the forefront of that.

Robinson is on his 3rd team in less than 2 years, traded by people that get paid good money to evaluate talent.

McCollum hasn't played a second of professional basketball, and broke the same foot he broke in college.

I think they all could get better, but how much???? I have no clue. Anyone that says differently is fooling themselves, IMO. Hope you are right though

 

[Eastoff]

The fact that they've all demonstrably improved their games from the start of the season would seem to be pretty good evidence that there's still more improvement to come.

CJ is a lottery pick amongst the 3 yet to show true lottery talent.

 

[e_blazer]

So from that they have only barely scratched it huh? ok

LOL! You take the cake, MM. I'll give you credit for not giving up easily on your opinions. But, yeah, I'd say young guys who show significant improvement within the space of a couple of months of regular season probably still have more improvement to their games ahead of them.

 

[e_blazer]

CJ is a lottery pick amongst the 3 yet to show true lottery talent.

Good call. Of course, the three guys I was referring to in my post were Freeland, Leonard, and Robinson, but you're right, I doubt CJ is going to be worth a damn as a big man.

 

[Mediocre Man]

LOL! You take the cake, MM. I'll give you credit for not giving up easily on your opinions. But, yeah, I'd say young guys who show significant improvement within the space of a couple of months of regular season probably still have more improvement to their games ahead of them.

Who has shown significant improvement?

Leonar_ regressed from last year
Robinson lost his job to Leonar_
McCollum hasn't played a second in the league

 

[Boob-No-More]

I, like you, have no idea.

There have been a shit load of lottery picks that didn't pan out.

Big white American born centers at the forefront of that.

Robinson is on his 3rd team in less than 2 years, traded by people that get paid good money to evaluate talent.

McCollum hasn't played a second of professional basketball, and broke the same foot he broke in college.

I think they all could get better, but how much???? I have no clue. Anyone that says differently is fooling themselves, IMO. Hope you are right though

Which is why they have the potential to get better. Nothing is guaranteed. I'm not saying they WILL get better. I'm saying they have the potential to get better.

I know you have a bias against white American born centers, but how many of them have Leonard's combination of size, athleticism and shooting touch? What if he's not a enter after all, what if he's a stretch 4 that rebounds well? What if he's the next David Lee? He was white, American, played center in college and played center for the Knicks. He now plays power forward and continues to be an excellent rebounder. Not saying Leonard will be the next David Lee, just pointing out that not all white American born big men end up being busts, even if they don't evolve into traditional NBA centers.

Everyone has potential but not everyone fully realizes it. Still, these guys all had enough potential to make them lottery picks. Given that all three have very little, or no, NBA experience, and are still very young I do believe they all have a chance to get much better. Time will tell, but at least Leonard's recent progress is encouraging and I'm excited to see what C.J. can do.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

Who has shown significant improvement?

Leonar_ regressed from last year

Regressed in what way? I thought you we all about the eye test. For all his size and athleticism, Leonard looked lost last year at all times on defense and did not rebound well. It was clear he had a good shooting touch, but that was about all he showed last year. I agree that if you base your evaluation on his summer league and preseason performances, there was some regression. He looked like he'd lost his confidence on offense and still was constantly out of position on defense and not boxing out and rebounding well.

But, that has changed. He has shown significant progress in his defensive positioning and awareness and is boxing out and rebounding at an elite level. He looks to be regaining confidence in his shot and that will come with his increased PT. There's a reason his TRB% has gone from 12.3 to 20.6. That's a HUGE improvement, not regression. You've always bashed the guy for his poor defense (still are with your childish refusal to spell his name correctly) and lack of rebounding. He's shown significant improvement in both areas and you stubbornly call that regression.

BNM

 

[Further]

Another note about Meyers. I haven't looked at the numbers, but last season he seemed to try and block every shot, which meant he was constantly out of rotation and scampering to get back to where he needed to be. He was a gambler, but this season he seems to be trying to just play within the defense, and so may end up with fewer blocks or steals, but a much improved defense since his teammates can now count on him rotating as planned. This leaves him in position to do another thing that has shown up on the stats, rebound like a freak.

This in my opinion is proof of two things. 1) The coaches are really concentrating on fundamentals and control, and 2) Meyers is listening to the coaches. This is a great recipe for continued improvement on all fronts. Great news.

 

[JDC]

Another note about Meyers. I haven't looked at the numbers, but last season he seemed to try and block every shot, which meant he was constantly out of rotation and scampering to get back to where he needed to be. He was a gambler, but this season he seems to be trying to just play within the defense, and so may end up with fewer blocks or steals, but a much improved defense since his teammates can now count on him rotating as planned. This leaves him in position to do another thing that has shown up on the stats, rebound like a freak.

This in my opinion is proof of two things. 1) The coaches are really concentrating on fundamentals and control, and 2) Meyers is listening to the coaches. This is a great recipe for continued improvement on all fronts. Great news.

This was my biggest complaint about him also. Trying to block shots he had no chance of even bothering. He still does it from time to time but he definitely improved.

 

[RipCityDSCPL]

Regressed in what way? I thought you we all about the eye test. For all his size and athleticism, Leonard looked lost last year at all times on defense and did not rebound well. It was clear he had a good shooting touch, but that was about all he showed last year. I agree that if you base your evaluation on his summer league and preseason performances, there was some regression. He looked like he'd lost his confidence on offense and still was constantly out of position on defense and not boxing out and rebounding well.

But, that has changed. He has shown significant progress in his defensive positioning and awareness and is boxing out and rebounding at an elite level. He looks to be regaining confidence in his shot and that will come with his increased PT. There's a reason his TRB% has gone from 12.3 to 20.6. That's a HUGE improvement, not regression. You've always bashed the guy for his poor defense (still are with your childish refusal to spell his name correctly) and lack of rebounding. He's shown significant improvement in both areas and you stubbornly call that regression.

BNM

One of the reason's for this is I think last season Meyer's felt he had to be THE guy rebounding the ball, whereas this season he is ONE of the guys.

In other words, he doesn't feel pressure to secure every rebound and feel bad if he doesn't get one because he has Lopez and Freeland out there with him.

 

[BBert]

I suspect bringing in Fropez might be the best thing that could have happened for Meyers. Watching Fropez he seems like such a smart, tough, even tempered, mentoring type of leader. I am so glad we got that guy.

 

[Boob-No-More]

For those who said Meyers Leonard would never be a good rebounder, who said rebounding could not be taught, you either have it or you don't, please note: Meyer Leonard's TRB% is now up to 21.3. Yes the sample size is still small, but as the sample size is growing his TRB% keeps going up. That's an unsustainable trend, but his current TRB% would put him second in the entire league, if he had enough rebounds to qualify, trailing only Andre Drummond (TRB% = 21.4). Leonard is also averaging 14.2 REB/36.

Is Meyers Leonard an elite level rebounder? Not yet, he needs to sustain this level of production over a much larger sample size to earn that distinction, but he is currently rebounding at an elite level in limited minutes, and that's a HUGE improvement. I'm very happy with his progress and glad to see his hard work is paying off in tangible results on the court.

BNM