Politics Let's say Biden is president...

[barfo]

but im sorry your assumptions are not correct. I find Trump to be a vile ugly person. Im not a Trumper. Im a conservative.
I do believe in cleaning the swamp though and Trump is the one who pushed that.

You might as well say that you believe in making america great again, and Trump is the one who pushed that.
If you can't distinguish between completely empty slogans and policies/actions, you are going to get conned every time.

barfo

 

[Orion Bailey]

You might as well say that you believe in making america great again, and Trump is the one who pushed that.
If you can't distinguish between completely empty slogans and policies/actions, you are going to get conned every time.

barfo

twocdifferent slogans. One is a vision. The other is real and tangible evwn if the title doesnt seem to be.

so because i agree with some government overhaul i might as well be a maga and a trumper?


This is the problem the left has with lumping all differing opinions into one category.

 

[RR7]

twocdifferent slogans. One is a vision. The other is real and tangible evwn if the title doesnt seem to be.

so because i agree with some government overhaul i might as well be a maga and a trumper?


This is the problem the left has with lumping all differing opinions into one category.

As you constantly lump "the left" all together as well. Stones and glass houses and all that

 

[Orion Bailey]

As you constantly lump "the left" all together as well. Stones and glass houses and all that

again. Its a response reaction. Its called mockery. I cant count how many times ive been called a trumper or some other demeaning because of one opinion.

im mocking what some on the left do in here.
Im only going to be insulted for so long before its returned in kind...

 

[RR7]

Ok

Maybe...be better? Seems hypocritical to rail on others to be better and rise above the bullshit, but then not do the same.

 

[Stevenson]

but im sorry your assumptions are not correct. I find Trump to be a vile ugly person. Im not a Trumper. Im a conservative.
I do believe in cleaning the swamp though and Trump is the one who pushed that.
It needs draining on both sides. Im sure he only tries to drain what wont negatively impact him and thats not right, but its a start.

Im still not sure how im going to vote and ive never been so undecided in the past. I have no hope in either candidate.
But i stand by my conservative principles which keeps me leaning republican.


I want my mind changed based on ideals. Maybe you are right. Maybe nothing can change my mond but im honestly asking.

The last time i did all i got was, if you dont know why you shouldnt vote for trump your an idiot or lost or whatever. Nothing tangible, real, or factual. No policies or plans for the future other than full on socialism which i am vehemently against.


all ive ever asked is stop with the insults and get on a path of leadership. Stop pointing fingers and point the way.

If i saw that id be inclined to have a change of stance.

Fair enough, I will take you at your word.

I admit I insulted you once, but I also caught myself and publicly apologized. Even so, you never acknowledged my mea culpa, indeed, you called me names. That made me less inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt going forward. So there's lots of blame to go around for the nature of the discourse here.

Cant we all just get along?

 

[Orion Bailey]

Fair enough, I will take you at your word.

I admit I insulted you once, but I also caught myself and publicly apologized. Even so, you never acknowledged my mea culpa, indeed, you called me names. That made me less inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt going forward. So there's lots of blame to go around for the nature of the discourse here.

Cant we all just get along?

link? Ill reread and make amends if so.
I fully admit i miss things here and dont catch everything. Im by no means perfect.

i do truly believe im one of the few who can admit that though.
Very few here can admit they dont know al or are wrong at times. Part of what gets me riled up and troll.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

I guess the real question is - how do you measure 'substantive changes'?

My guess is that for the Biden administration (and likely a couple of administrations after) it should be measured by policy scrutinized by scientific climate experts and investment in solutions.

Its hard to say what substantive change is. It's easier to say what it isn't. In my view, cap and trade and carbon taxes are not substantive. It isn't setting goals to reduce emissions in 30 years. I don't know what realistic goals are, but I think we need start thinking "unrealistically"

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

I'm all in on the Green New Deal and more. I think we are at a crisis, I think we all know it, and I think we need wild, bold moves.

IMHO the Green New Deal is not wild or bold (and it certainly wont be once it's done with bipartisan negotiations), but it's certainly a start.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

but im sorry your assumptions are not correct. I find Trump to be a vile ugly person. Im not a Trumper. Im a conservative.
I do believe in cleaning the swamp though and Trump is the one who pushed that.
It needs draining on both sides. Im sure he only tries to drain what wont negatively impact him and thats not right, but its a start.

Im still not sure how im going to vote and ive never been so undecided in the past. I have no hope in either candidate.
But i stand by my conservative principles which keeps me leaning republican.


I want my mind changed based on ideals. Maybe you are right. Maybe nothing can change my mond but im honestly asking.

The last time i did all i got was, if you dont know why you shouldnt vote for trump your an idiot or lost or whatever. Nothing tangible, real, or factual. No policies or plans for the future other than full on socialism which i am vehemently against.


all ive ever asked is stop with the insults and get on a path of leadership. Stop pointing fingers and point the way.

If i saw that id be inclined to have a change of stance.

I am extremely skeptical that anyone on here advocated for "full on socialism".

Why don't you like Biden? He's basically a 90s republican.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I am extremely skeptical that anyone on here advocated for "full on socialism".

Why don't you like Biden? He's basically a 90s republican.

how long have you been here?


Biden is a puppet. Doesnt think for himself snd well merely be led by his coorporate sponsors.
Pelosi will control him and she is borderline socialist.

and im not a 90’s republican. Im an 1850’s republican.

 

[andalusian]

Its hard to say what substantive change is. It's easier to say what it isn't. In my view, cap and trade and carbon taxes are not substantive. It isn't setting goals to reduce emissions in 30 years. I don't know what realistic goals are, but I think we need start thinking "unrealistically"

Unfortunately, I do not think that anything else is reasonable. The world as we know it can not turn on a dime, it is just not going to happen. We have seen with Covid-19 what happens when the world needs to turn on a dime - it is economic collapse and strife for many. A 30 years goal to reach 100% clean energy economy is bold - it really is, there is no way to turn a cruise ship as if it was a white-water raft. It just does not work like that.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Unfortunately, I do not think that anything else is reasonable. The world as we know it can not turn on a dime, it is just not going to happen. We have seen with Covid-19 what happens when the world needs to turn on a dime - it is economic collapse and strife for many. A 30 years goal to reach 100% clean energy economy is bold - it really is, there is no way to turn a cruise ship as if it was a white-water raft. It just does not work like that.

baby steps.
Infrastructure will fail if we try to rebuild it al at once.
Patience and persistence is what will work best.

 

[barfo]

twocdifferent slogans. One is a vision. The other is real and tangible evwn if the title doesnt seem to be.

So you think draining the swamp is the one that is real and tangible? What is the evidence for that?

so because i agree with some government overhaul i might as well be a maga and a trumper?

That isn't what I said, and I'm pretty sure you know it.

This is the problem the left has with lumping all differing opinions into one category.

And I didn't 'lump differing opinions into one category', either. Seems like you want to fight strawmen.

barfo

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

how long have you been here?


Biden is a puppet. Doesnt think for himself snd well merely be led by his coorporate sponsors.
Pelosi will control him and she is borderline socialist.

I've been with this community for a long, long time. I guarantee none of the regulars were advocating for socialism. And considering you think Nancy Pelosi of all people is a "borderline socialist," that kinda proves my point. I think you have no idea what socialism is.

and im not a 90’s republican. Im an 1850’s republican.

Well if you're a pre-civil war Republican then you must be against the wage slavery exploitation of the working class and advocate for small-scale production of goods over federal systems of industrial mechanization and capital hoarding. Wait, maybe you do know what socialism is...

 

[Orion Bailey]

So you think draining the swamp is the one that is real and tangible? What is the evidence for that?



That isn't what I said, and I'm pretty sure you know it.



And I didn't 'lump differing opinions into one category', either. Seems like you want to fight strawmen.

barfo

Yes. Draining the swamp has specifics to it.

oh? That isn't what you said? Not liking a bit of your own medicine are we? Because you constantly twist words around.
And lastly. I didn't say You lumped. I said thats the problem with lumping.

you seem to have a knack at twisting words and then calling them straw man.
Thats fine. I call what you are doing trolling....

Funny how in this very post you did what you accuse me of....


lol!.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I've been with this community for a long, long time. I guarantee none of the regulars were advocating for socialism. And considering you think Nancy Pelosi of all people is a "borderline socialist," that kinda proves my point. I think you have no idea what socialism is.



Well if you're a pre-civil war Republican then you must be against the wage slavery exploitation of the working class and advocate for small-scale production of goods over federal systems of industrial mechanization and capital hoarding. Wait, maybe you do know what socialism is...

okay... then you dont read all the posts because it has been advocated. To the point ive been asked why im against socialism. Ill chalk it up to you not seeing it all.
The 1850’s republican was not a out the politics of then currently but the limited fed government of the time.
Dont overreach that comment as there are many details i hadnt mentioned.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Unfortunately, I do not think that anything else is reasonable. The world as we know it can not turn on a dime, it is just not going to happen. We have seen with Covid-19 what happens when the world needs to turn on a dime - it is economic collapse and strife for many. A 30 years goal to reach 100% clean energy economy is bold - it really is, there is no way to turn a cruise ship as if it was a white-water raft. It just does not work like that.

I kinda think Covid showed us that rapid change is in fact possible. As international industrial economies ground to a halt, we saw pollution recede. The internet allows us to live and work locally. Yes, many people will lose work and livelihood -- if only there were some vast source of untapped wealth being hoarded that could be used to mitigate that... oh well.

30 years is 20 years too slow. So, if we're not talking about preventing a catastrophe, then what are we talking about? Living with it? What's your plan? I was going to buy some cheap property in Southern Oregon... until... uh yeah,

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

okay... then you dont read all the posts because it has been advocated. To the point ive been asked why im against socialism. Ill chalk it up to you not seeing it all.
The 1850’s republican was not a out the politics of then currently but the limited fed government of the time.
Dont overreach that comment as there are many details i hadnt mentioned.

who the hell has been advocating for socialism while I was gone? let's hang out

 

[Orion Bailey]

who the hell has been advocating for socialism while I was gone? let's hang out

okay well your the first today.

 

[theprunetang]

Give me a well run Democratic Socialist society all day.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Give me a well run Democratic Socialist society all day.

so what will the plan be to maintain all the social programs when the money taken from the rich runs out in 50-100 years?

Its been tried before and failed.
But thats only half my issue.
I think handouts enable laziness for some. yes some tKe it Nd make something of it, but many just take it and then ask for more.


One need look no further than the pandemic to realize people don't want to work hard. They want it given to them. And I'm not for enabling that.
I think that philosophy is the derailment of aNy society.
Instead of going back to work people stayed home and collected fed money because staying on unemployment paid them more.
So when you pay everyone to sit at home, how does the economy grow? How does it even maintain?

 

[illmatic99]

Give me a well run Democratic Socialist society all day.

With so many losing healthcare and homes as a result of layoffs, the middle class being wiped out, and serious dents to the future of the nation's economy, you'd think people would stop vilifying socialism.

 

[Orion Bailey]

With so many losing healthcare and homes as a result of layoffs, the middle class being wiped out, and serious dents to the future of the nation's economy, you'd think people would stop vilifying socialism.

socialism isnt the answer to the effects of a pandemic. Short term bailouts maybe....

 

[RR7]

socialism isnt the answer to the effects of a pandemic. Short term bailouts maybe....

I think when you currently have a system where health care is often tied to employment, and you have a pandemic that has 30 million people lose their jobs, i think the pandemic shows there are many aspects of socialism that should be in place.

 

[illmatic99]

socialism isnt the answer to the effects of a pandemic. Short term bailouts maybe....

Yes, let's make Jeff Bezos the world's first trillionaire.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I think when you currently have a system where health care is often tied to employment, and you have a pandemic that has 30 million people lose their jobs, i think the pandemic shows there are many aspects of socialism that should be in place.

see thats where i disagree. 30 million lost jobs but how many lost homes because of losing jobs? Did the bail outs work to provide subsidies for the moment? Cause 30 million homeless would be absolutely tragic.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

With so many losing healthcare and homes as a result of layoffs, the middle class being wiped out, and serious dents to the future of the nation's economy, you'd think people would stop vilifying socialism.

Socialism in and of itself doesn't work. Capitalism unbridled or crony capitalism also does not work. There needs to be a balance of the two for things to actually work. Even in the 'best' ran democratic socialist countries, they have quite a few failures and have gone towards capitalism as recognition of necessary commerce, and capitalistic opportunity is needed for a thriving economy that can also allow the government systems to continue to run well. People complain about capitalism, in the US but the complaint is really misguided, what we have in the US is crony capitalism. Which is kind of the worst of both worlds when it comes to big government vs big businesses.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Yes, let's make Jeff Bezos the world's first trillionaire.

okay...?

you didnt come up with the idea he dis and business savt so you are jealous and think he should give his money back to you?

lol

really though. I see faults in capitalism too but it maintains a freedom socialism doesn't.
All systems will be abused by those in control and socialism would be no less.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Socialism in and of itself doesn't work. Capitalism unbridled or crony capitalism also do not work. There needs to be a balance of the two for things to actually work. Even in the 'best' of run democratic socialist countries, they have quite a few failures and have gone towards capitalism as recognition of necessary commerce, and capitalistic opportunity is needed for a thriving economy that can also allow the government systems to continue to run well. People complain about capitalism, in the US but the complaint is really misguided, what we have in the US is crony capitalism. Which is kind of the worst of both worlds when it comes to big government vs big businesses.