Merged: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

[KingSpeed]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Kobe got around him so easy it's not even funny.

Hedo let Kobe get around him so that he could block him from behind. You get it done however you can.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

It all depends on who we are targeting at PG.

If we bring in Miller (or some other "true" PG), we don't "need" Hedo. If we go for someone like Hinrich, then Hedo becomes very important. You can argue stats all you want, but anyone watching Hedo and Outlaw play can tell who will be the better playmaker, decision maker, and third option on offense.

I like Outlaw. For years, I have defended Outlaw. After 6 years, however, he still makes rookie mistakes, doesn't make full use of his physical talent, and frequently appears to be just plain dumb! He plays too many minutes and plays too important of a role in our offense. He is being asked to shoulder more of a load than he can handle.

 

[Minstrel]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Hedo let Kobe get around him so that he could block him from behind. You get it done however you can.

And he let the Lakers beat the Magic for the title so that the Lakers would be overly-confident next year and be easy pickings!

That Turkoglu never fails...he's always just setting you up for the next move!

 

[Boob-No-More]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

I think Webster & Outlaw put up as much offense.

Think again:

Webster 2007-08 assists = 90
Outlaw 2007-08 assists = 109
Batum 2008-09 assists = 74
Outlaw 2008-09 assists = 83
Total assists for starting and back-up SF over the last two seasons = 356

Turkoglu 2007-08 assists = 409
Turkoglu 2008-09 assists = 374
Total assists over the last two seasons = 783

There's more to offense than scoring. Hedo puts up more assists in a single season than our current starting and back-up small forwards combined do in two seasons. Over the past two seasons, he's put up 427 more assists than our starter and back-ups combined.

He also had more assists in the play-offs (116 assists in 24 games) than Webster (90 assists in 75 games), Outlaw (106 assists in 82 games and 83 assists in 81 games) or Batum (74 assists in 79 games) have put up in the the regular season in 2007-08 or 2008-09.

And guess who a great many of those assists went to - Dwight Howard. Getting Hedo will immediately make Greg Oden a more effective offensive player. It was so frustrating this past season to watch Greg roll down the lane and our PGs completely unable to get him the ball. That won't happen with Hedo, he WILL get Greg the ball, just like he did with Dwight. That alone makes him a huge upgrade over anyone we currently have playing the 3.

2) While I do understand his rebounds and assists are ok for a SF, I don't see his numbers all that much better than Webster's.

Please look again:

Turkoglu 2007-08 RPG = 5.7 and APG = 5.0
Turkoglu 2008-09 RPG = 5.3 and APG = 4.9
Two year average = 5.5 RPG and 5.0 APG

Webster 2006-07 RPG = 4.9 and APG = 1.1
Webster 2006-07 RPG = 5.0 and APG = 1.5
Two year average = 5.0 RPG and 1.3 APG

So, Hedo averages an extra half rebound per game and nearly 4x as many assists per game was Webster. That's a huge difference.

3) What will we do with 4 SF's? It takes minutes from too many people and creates dissension. To just say, "oh, we'll make a trade" is too simplistic. What's the trade? How does it make us better?

We don't know if Webster will be back. He is still not allowed to run on his broken foot. Outlaw will be involved in a deal to bring us an upgrade at starting PG. That gets us down to two small forwards - three when Webster completes his recovery. And Webster's PERs for his three full seasons have been 11.6, 9.9 and 12.0. It's not like he deserves starters minutes - or even significant back-up minutes even if he is healthy. So far, he is a significantly below average NBA player. I see no problem with cutting his minutes.

BNM

 

[KingSpeed]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Thanks a bunch. The PG claim made me blow V8 all over my laptop.

Did you watch the playoffs? Turkoglu played long stretches as PG. I'm serious. Watch the tapes of the Finals. SVG had stretches where Nelson and Alston were both on the bench and Turk was running the team. And they won the game in which he did that the most, finishing with 18 pts, 7 assts, 6 rebs, 1 turnover in Game 3.

Check out these back to back games by Turkoglu:

Game 7 vs the Celtics IN Boston: 25 points, 12 assts, 3 turnovers
Game 1 vs Cavs IN Cleveland: 15 pts, 14 assts, 2 turnovers

He's a big time player. And a big time playmaker. Yes, they failed to win the title, but he helped them get all the way to the Finals, past Boston and LeBron (who had HCA for the series).

Learn the game, then post.

 

[The Sebastian Express]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

I do imagine what Greg would be like in shape and recovered from MF and actually getting a competent pass on a pick and roll from Hedo. It makes me smile.

 

[KingSpeed]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

And he let the Lakers beat the Magic for the title so that the Lakers would be overly-confident next year and be easy pickings!

Hedo played his best basketball in the Finals:

18.0 ppg, 49.2% FGs, 43.8% 3ptrs

But he can't do it by himself. If Lee makes a layup (from a PERFECT pass by Hedo) and Dwight Howard hits a free throw, the Magic win the series.

 

[EGame]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

You know what else would make you smile, taco pizzas. That day you showed your Outlaw like BBIQ hurts me.

With that that, yes, we do need "TurkeyBoy." Sure he doesn't play defense, but that means he fits in with the rest of the Blazers!

Ok seriously, TSE already mentioned one of the biggest reasons why I want TurkeyGlue because the experience he had with Dwight on running the pick and roll makes me think he can do that just as well with Oden. He will make Oden's life easier. Not only that, he will also makes Roy's life easier because he will relieve some of the pressure from Roy. Maybe then Roy won't break down at age 28 after doing EVERYTHING for us with Hedo around to help handle the duties of having the ball in his hands.

I could go on, but that right there should sell all of you why Hedo is our guy. Yeah!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Ed O]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Did we watch the same playoffs?

Quick... what was Hedo's PER in this year's playoffs?

He did NOT have a good playoff run. He was remarkably inconsistent and he was not a productive player.

His PER in this year's playoffs?

Let's pay attention to this. Let's all say it together. Let's memorize it.

13.2.

Which was down from his regular season (a sub-average 14.8) as well as his playoff PER last year (15.3) but above his career playoff average of 12.4... he's had two sub-9.0 PER playoff years of the seven times he's been in the playoffs and has never reached 16.0.

Terrible? Maybe not. Impressive? Definitely not.

If he were a defensive stopper, this could be more acceptable. But he's not. He's an offensive player that doesn't shoot that well and who doesn't do much of ANYTHING well.

Ugh.

Ed O.

 

[KingSpeed]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

That's ridiculous. PER doesn't tell the whole tale. Turk had a great playoffs. His scoring increased each round. He played big in big games. See Game 7 in Boston and Game 1 in Cleveland. Those were probably two of the best individual performances of the entire playoffs. He also hit lots of clutch shots and made clutch defensive plays. To say he doesn't do anything well is RIDICULOUS. Look at his line during the Cleveland series: 17, 7, & 6. Look at those two games I mentioned before:

Game 7 In Boston: 25 pts, 12 assts
Game 1 In Cleveland: 15 pts, 14 assts

I'd say he was a great playmaker, one of the best in big games in this year's playoffs.

 

[KingSpeed]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

He's an offensive player that doesn't shoot that well and who doesn't do much of ANYTHING well.
\.

25 & 12 in a Game 7 on the road?? That's not doing anything well? Please.

Learn the game, then post.

 

[KingSpeed]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Luckily, Kevin Pritchard DOES know the game. Thank goodness.

 

[brsinepyce]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

UPDATE: The Toronto Star reports the Raptors seem to have pulled back on a decision to take a run at Hedo Turkoglu.

There was a report yesterday afternoon that Toronto was planning a $60M offer to Turkoglu, however, the newspaper says that was debunked by a handful of sources.

It would take Toronto renouncing the rights to Shawn Marion, Anthony Parker, Carlos Delfino and others to get that deal done and that won't happen as the Raptors are close to re-signing Delfino.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Some people believe Barack Obama is a God. Some people...

You can't be serious.

frankly I think we'll have fewer wins with him.

You can't be serious.

 

[KingSpeed]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

1-11(!!!)

Hedo had 13 pts, 10 rebs, & 7 assts in that game. And the Magic won.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Hedo had 13 pts, 10 rebs, & 7 assts in that game. And the Magic won.

WHAT!!!!! No triple double? Fuck him!

It should also be pointed out that Travis, Batum or Webster has ever had 7 assists in 1 game. EVER

 

[LittleAlex]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

I've already said Turk makes the Blazers better, but for how long? Is he worth it? Is he the missing piece?

I don't "think" so. I "think" a PG is much more important.

There are no point guards worth getting in the free agent pool or that are available via trade.

Miller is too old, since his game really is predicated on speed.

Kidd isn't going to come to Portland.

Bibby is a pile of shit.

Sessions is going to be resigned by the Bucks.

Hinrich is not going to be traded by Chicago now that Gordon is gone.

Who else do you believe Portland should get?

We all better hope that Bayless makes huge strides this off season. There just aren't many other options out there.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Here is the only scenario that we would want or need Hedo...

Let's say Webster's foot is a lot worse than we're being told (very possible as players in the NBA don't have long careers with permanent screws in their foot). Let's further say that we've decided to give up on Outlaw as our 6th man. Again, this is also possible as he's as good as he's going to get and with his salary he's excellent trade bait for a veteran back up PF. The wouls leave Hedo & Batum at SF. While I still don't care for Hedo, under this scenario I can understand why we are the only NBA team left interested in him. And, it's not like Hedo can't play at all. He can do some things well. So I wonder ...

 

[alex42083]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Hedo had 13 pts, 10 rebs, & 7 assts in that game. And the Magic won.

Pshh... I bet his PER was horrible that game. That's the only thing that matters anyway, even over wins.

 

[hasoos]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

If we are willing to pay that much, we should sign and trade for Gerald Wallace. A player that doesn't need to take shots away from BROY and LA to help the team.

Dude if Gerald Wallace would have been available it would have been signed and done a long time ago. You have to work within the reality of the situation. The reality of the situation is the Blazers will be over the cap this year after they re sign Roy and Aldridge. This is the last year they can pick up a free agent. Roy needs help. Now is the time, Turk is the guy.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Quick... what was Hedo's PER in this year's playoffs?

He did NOT have a good playoff run. He was remarkably inconsistent and he was not a productive player.

His PER in this year's playoffs?

Let's pay attention to this. Let's all say it together. Let's memorize it.

13.2.

Which was down from his regular season (a sub-average 14.8) as well as his playoff PER last year (15.3) but above his career playoff average of 12.4... he's had two sub-9.0 PER playoff years of the seven times he's been in the playoffs and has never reached 16.0.

Terrible? Maybe not. Impressive? Definitely not.

If he were a defensive stopper, this could be more acceptable. But he's not. He's an offensive player that doesn't shoot that well and who doesn't do much of ANYTHING well.

Ugh.

Ed O.

Quick... what was Ourtlaw's PER in this year's playoffs?

He did NOT have a good playoff run. He was remarkably inconsistent and he was not a productive player.

His PER in this year's playoffs?

Let's pay attention to this. Let's all say it together. Let's memorize it.

6.3.

Terrible? Definitely. Impressive? Definitely not.

If he were a defensive stopper, this could be more acceptable. But he's not. He's an offensive player that doesn't shoot that well and who doesn't do much of ANYTHING well.

Ugh.

Quick... what was Batum's PER in this year's playoffs?

He did NOT have a good playoff run. He was remarkably inconsistent and he was not a productive player.

His PER in this year's playoffs?

Let's pay attention to this. Let's all say it together. Let's memorize it.

6.1.

Terrible? Yep. Impressive? Definitely not.

Ugh.

Still think Hedo wouldn't be a significant improvement?

In general, scoring is a lot lower during the play-offs. The competition is much better than the average regular season opponent, the pace is slower and naturally the average PER goes down due to the lower scoring. So, it's no surprise that Hedo's PER was lower in the play-offs. His scoring, rebounds and assists were all down compared to his regular season averages, but he still averaged 15.8/4.5/4.8 in this year's play-offs and 17.5/6.4/5.5 the previous year. Our two small forwards combined averaged 11.0/3.5/0.7 (in equivalent minutes). Still think Hedo isn't significant upgrade?

And, for those who claim Rudy is a better player than Hedo. His PER in the play-offs was 11.4 and he averaged 7.5/2.8/1.0.

You'll may to play the small sample size card, but that's one of the benefits of adding Hedo, he has a much larger body of proven play-off performance than Outlaw or Batum. You may also try to play the age card, and one would hope Outlaw and Batum would get better with more play-off experience (one would hope, PERs in the 6 range are absolutely horrible), but given the choice, I'd rather have a guy who has proven he can contribute in the post season than bank on guys who may take several years of additional play-off experience to reach that same level.

So, bring in Hedo, let him help the young team advance in the play-offs, like he did in Orlando. Trade Outlaw for an upgrade at starting PG, or back-up power forward and groom Batum to be Hedo's eventual replacement.

BNM

 

[andalusian]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

PER in the playoffs, I would suspect, is a little misleading because you play against better competition night in night out - and PER is standardized to the league performance as a whole during the regular season (including all the crap teams that did not make the playoffs).

So, someone that has a 13.2 PER going all the way to the finals and playing against formidable competition - would have probably had something like 15 or 16 PER if the performance was standardized to the playoffs run only. In other words - not as bad as these numbers show.

Just a point to consider...

 

[B-Roy]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

PER in the playoffs, I would suspect, is a little misleading because you play against better competition night in night out - and PER is standardized to the league performance as a whole during the regular season (including all the crap teams that did not make the playoffs).

So, someone that has a 13.2 PER going all the way to the finals and playing against formidable competition - would have probably had something like 15 or 16 PER if the performance was standardized to the playoffs run only. In other words - not as bad as these numbers show.

Just a point to consider...

Nice job indirectly defending Outlaw and Batum.

 

[mook]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Quick... what was Ourtlaw's PER in this year's playoffs?

He did NOT have a good playoff run. He was remarkably inconsistent and he was not a productive player.

His PER in this year's playoffs?

Let's pay attention to this. Let's all say it together. Let's memorize it.

6.3.

Terrible? Definitely. Impressive? Definitely not.

If he were a defensive stopper, this could be more acceptable. But he's not. He's an offensive player that doesn't shoot that well and who doesn't do much of ANYTHING well.

Ugh.

Quick... what was Batum's PER in this year's playoffs?

He did NOT have a good playoff run. He was remarkably inconsistent and he was not a productive player.

His PER in this year's playoffs?

Let's pay attention to this. Let's all say it together. Let's memorize it.

6.1.

Terrible? Yep. Impressive? Definitely not.

Ugh.

Still think Hedo wouldn't be a significant improvement?

I don't know why you are bothering to compare him to Outlaw and Batum. Seems kind of a straw man argument. Nobody on this board is going to argue that Turkoglu is a worse player than those guys. Obviously, if my choice is last year's SF lineup or Turkoglu/Batum, I'm taking Turkoglu/Batum.

The question is, "Is he the most talented, best value small forward available, who actually fits the needs of our team?"

On that mark, I really have to wonder. For what we actually need (defense, a third/fourth scoring option, toughness) I have a hard time picking him as my top target, especially when you add in the higher salary he'll command.

I'm definitely more of a Ron Artest guy. A guy who, by the way, put up nearly identical statistics to Hedo in the playoffs last year while also playing far, far better defense.

Hell, imagine he signs with the Cavs and we get Turkoglu. When our teams play, who do you think wins that matchup? (It's sort of a trick question, because Artest will be their team's best defender and will of course be guarding Brandon Roy.) Still, I bet Artest has a much bigger impact on the game.

 

[LittleAlex]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

25 & 12 in a Game 7 on the road?? That's not doing anything well? Please.

Learn the game, then post.

This idiotic statement never, ever gets old!

How about the fact that if you look at the home and aways splits, Hedo played like complete ass at home throughout the playoffs.

How about the fact that he is freaking 30 years old and will be 35 when his contract ends.

How about the fact that I haven't seen you post a damn thing that makes me think you are an NBA expert. Rather, you are just another fan with an opinion.

Learn manners and respect, then post.

 

[LittleAlex]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Dude if Gerald Wallace would have been available it would have been signed and done a long time ago. You have to work within the reality of the situation. The reality of the situation is the Blazers will be over the cap this year after they re sign Roy and Aldridge. This is the last year they can pick up a free agent. Roy needs help. Now is the time, Turk is the guy.

This is the truth. Hedo is the best available option for Portland that KP is willing to go after (Artest is the very best option, but KP doesn't like his fit in the culture more then likely).

 

[Pinwheel1]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Here is the only scenario that we would want or need Hedo...

Let's say Webster's foot is a lot worse than we're being told (very possible as players in the NBA don't have long careers with permanent screws in their foot). Let's further say that we've decided to give up on Outlaw as our 6th man. Again, this is also possible as he's as good as he's going to get and with his salary he's excellent trade bait for a veteran back up PF. The wouls leave Hedo & Batum at SF. While I still don't care for Hedo, under this scenario I can understand why we are the only NBA team left interested in him. And, it's not like Hedo can't play at all. He can do some things well. So I wonder ...

Finally.

KP is doing his job. He has to look at worst case and best case scenarios. Webster not being healthy is a worst case scenario. We need to prepare for the worst.

Yes 5 years is not an ideal contract for a 30 year old. But that is the advantage of free agency for players. They get over paid. But in 4 years will it matter if we are over the cap? Maybe his expiring contract will be worth a lot at that time.

 

[Ed O]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

PER in the playoffs, I would suspect, is a little misleading because you play against better competition night in night out - and PER is standardized to the league performance as a whole during the regular season (including all the crap teams that did not make the playoffs).

So, someone that has a 13.2 PER going all the way to the finals and playing against formidable competition - would have probably had something like 15 or 16 PER if the performance was standardized to the playoffs run only. In other words - not as bad as these numbers show.

Just a point to consider...

That is absolutely true. It's also a question of sample size... even for a team that makes it to the playoffs, there just aren't that many games, and a real clunker or two might hurt more than a very good game or three.

If Hedo was a 19-22 PER guy during the regular season, I honestly would not be concerned at ALL about a 13.2 PER in the playoffs... but he's not. He is a sub-15 PER guy. He slightly underperformed in terms of PER in the playoffs, but it was not a huge dropoff.

I bring up the 13.2 PER, though, to counter the idea that he had a "great" playoff run. He was a key contributor to the Magic in their run, no doubt, but overall he wasn't statistically impressive.

Ed O.

 

[Ed O]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

I don't know why you are bothering to compare him to Outlaw and Batum. Seems kind of a straw man argument. Nobody on this board is going to argue that Turkoglu is a worse player than those guys. Obviously, if my choice is last year's SF lineup or Turkoglu/Batum, I'm taking Turkoglu/Batum.

The question is, "Is he the most talented, best value small forward available, who actually fits the needs of our team?"

Yes. I think BNM wasted a lot of keystrokes arguing a point that no one cares much about.

Ed O.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

I don't know why you are bothering to compare him to Outlaw and Batum. Seems kind of a straw man argument. Nobody on this board is going to argue that Turkoglu is a worse player than those guys. Obviously, if my choice is last year's SF lineup or Turkoglu/Batum, I'm taking Turkoglu/Batum.

The question is, "Is he the most talented, best value small forward available, who actually fits the needs of our team?"

On that mark, I really have to wonder. For what we actually need (defense, a third/fourth scoring option, toughness) I have a hard time picking him as my top target, especially when you add in the higher salary he'll command.

I'm definitely more of a Ron Artest guy. A guy who, by the way, put up nearly identical statistics to Hedo in the playoffs last year while also playing far, far better defense.

Hell, imagine he signs with the Cavs and we get Turkoglu. When our teams play, who do you think wins that matchup? (It's sort of a trick question, because Artest will be their team's best defender and will of course be guarding Brandon Roy.) Still, I bet Artest has a much bigger impact on the game.

Is Artest an option? He has said his first choice is to stay in Houston. His second choice seems to be Cleveland, followed by the Lakers. We would be, at best, his 4th choice. Do you want to loose out on an upgrade at SF (Hedo) chasing a guy we probably have no realistic shot at getting?

Funny you should mention Artest. He's exactly one of the reasons we need Hedo. We got beat by Houston because we didn't have a reliable 3rd scoring optiopn beyond Roy and Aldridge. This let Battier and Artest focus on shutting down Roy. If we had had Hedo, I seriously think we would have won that series. Hedo would have given us that 3rd scoring option, and one of Artest/Battier would have had to guard Hedo, making things easier for Roy. Hedo also would have helped facilitate our offense, which often times ground to a complete halt in the Houston series. He would have been able to get the ball into Oden and Aldridge in the low post - something our guards struggled to do. It certianly would have been a much different series.

Whether Artest stays in Houston, goes to Cleveland or the Lakers, I think adding Hedo gives us a better chance against all of those teams for the reasons I mentioned above.

BNM