Merged: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

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Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Ed O said:
Yes. I think BNM wasted a lot of keystrokes arguing a point that no one cares much about.

Ed O.
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Really? Comparing him to our current small forwards is a waste of time? So, what are our (realistic) options at SF if we don't get Hedo? The guys we have on the roster failed miserably in the play-off series against Houtson. If we would have had Hedo, I seriously think we would have won that series. Do you disagree?

If the options are add Hedo, or keep what we have, what is your preference?

BNM
 
Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

I'd keep what we have. Guys gain experience through the playoffs, they'll hopefully learn to play better. My preference than to overpay for a guy who is getting older and can disrupt our core a bit (i.e. the RUDY situation)
 
Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Boob-No-More said:
Really? Comparing him to our current small forwards is a waste of time? So, what are our (realistic) options at SF if we don't get Hedo? The guys we have on the roster failed miserably in the play-off series against Houtson. If we would have had Hedo, I seriously think we would have won that series. Do you disagree?
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I agree. If we had had Hedo or Vince Carter or any number of adequate-or-better SFs, we would have won.

If the options are add Hedo, or keep what we have, what is your preference?
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Add Hedo. Letting our cap space lapse would not be wise IMO.

With that being said, I don't think that saving up this space to get Hedo is a good use of the capspace given his age and his statistical inefficiency.

Ed O.
 
Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Boob-No-More said:
Is Artest an option? He has said his first choice is to stay in Houston. His second choice seems to be Cleveland, followed by the Lakers. We would be, at best, his 4th choice.
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I haven't actually seen him spell out anything you've said here other than the point that his first choice is to stay in Houston. He's getting lots of buzz about Cleveland because they seem to be the courting him. His agent has said he wouldn't mind playing in LA if things didn't work out in Houston. But I'd love to see a link that demonstrates him actually listing his priorities. I doubt it exists.

Truth is that he'll make the same decision most free agents make--go to the city that pays him the most. I think Portland can be that city if it comes down to a bidding war. (Hopefully it doesn't.)

The real issue, though, isn't that Artest doesn't want to come here. It's that Portland management, at least if you believe the media, hasn't made any effort to at least lure him in because they've put their eggs in the Hedo basket. I find that pretty disappointing.
 
Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Yes!
 
Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Ed O said:
I agree. If we had had Hedo or Vince Carter or any number of adequate-or-better SFs, we would have won.

Add Hedo. Letting our cap space lapse would not be wise IMO.

With that being said, I don't think that saving up this space to get Hedo is a good use of the capspace given his age and his statistical inefficiency.
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Adding Hedo is definitely better than standing pat and not using the cap space. This is probably the last time in 10 years that we will go into the free agent period with significant available cap space. Moving forward, Roy will get a max. extension, Aldridge will get a big extension, Oden will eventually get a raise, etc. Unlike Detroit, we don't have the choice of spending now or waiting until next summer. We spend it now, or lose it. If Hedo is the best realistic option, he's better than standing pat, doing nothing and losing our cap space forever. Even if we overpay to get him, it doesn't really impact our roster flexibility much in the future. We'll be over the cap. with, or without Hedo. So, we'll have to rely on exceptions to sign new players either way.

BNM
 
Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Boob-No-More said:
Adding Hedo is definitely better than standing pat and not using the cap space. This is probably the last time in 10 years that we will go into the free agent period with significant available cap space. Moving forward, Roy will get a max. extension, Aldridge will get a big extension, Oden will eventually get a raise, etc. Unlike Detroit, we don't have the choice of spending now or waiting until next summer. We spend it now, or lose it. If Hedo is the best realistic option, he's better than standing pat, doing nothing and losing our cap space forever. Even if we overpay to get him, it doesn't really impact our roster flexibility much in the future. We'll be over the cap. with, or without Hedo. So, we'll have to rely on exceptions to sign new players either way.
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I know. We agree.

It's a question of whether Hedo is the best use of our cap space. I definitely do not feel that he is.

Ed O.
 
Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Ed O said:
It's a question of whether Hedo is the best use of our cap space. I definitely do not feel that he is.
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Who would be the best use of our cap space and do we have a realistic shot at getting them?

BNM
 
Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Ed O said:
I bring up the 13.2 PER, though, to counter the idea that he had a "great" playoff run. He was a key contributor to the Magic in their run, no doubt, but overall he wasn't statistically impressive
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I definitely agree that he is no superstar - but his PER is probably not as good as you would hope, during the playoffs - because when they needed to create a bucket it was Hedo and...? The defense knew it would go to him and they would concentrate on stopping him.

(Which, btw - proves without any doubts that Roy is a super-star, given that his PER in the playoffs, with Houston draping two defenders and a blind referee on him actually went up to a magnificent 25.9).

Hedo's playoffs was very nice. Great? No, I agree with you - it was not great, but for a good role-player thrust into the primary play-maker position for a team that went to the finals... It was very nice.

While he missed a couple of stupid free-throws that could have iced another win at the finals - overall - he not only did not embarrass himself, he actually did himself some good.

At the end of the day - what are our other options?

Ron-Ron? Maybe an upgrade on defense - but he is a head-case, he can, offensively, throw as many games for you as he wins you and he is not a great play-maker.

Miller? I am not a fan. Yes, he is a playmaker - but he can not shoot the 3 and there are reports of him being a locker-room issue.

Ariza? An older Batum. Nice to have - but I would rather go for a different skill than reproduce what we already have in Batum.

Kidd - Way too old

What else is there?

Personally, I think this will be a nice addition - it will take some pressure off Roy, it will help getting the ball down low in the post to the big boy (who is really the key to a championship run), he can shoot the 3, he does not seem like a head-case in any way, shape or form and he makes some of our more attractive trade chips easier to move (namely, Outlaw) because he is an upgrade on them.

Overall - it is not a slam dunk - but it is clearly a very nice upgrade.
 
My Final Word on Hedo

Lest some of the knuckleheads around here think I have an axe to grind against Hedo, I really don't. It appears we are going to sign him and I hope the very best for him and it all works out. I may think it's a mistake, but a Blazer is a Blazer.
 
Re: My Final Word on Hedo

?

For us waiting 2 years for our cap space, to blow it on Hedo doesn't really excite me.
 
Re: My Final Word on Hedo

BLAZER PROPHET said:
Lest some of the knuckleheads around here think I have an axe to grind against Hedo, I really don't. It appears we are going to sign him and I hope the very best for him and it all works out. I may think it's a mistake, but a Blazer is a Blazer.
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Are you on the Hedo Hater list too!!!! ROFL
:drumroll:


I agree w/your post. :)
 
Re: My Final Word on Hedo

This knucklehead just wants you to back up your assertions, which apparently you don't want to do.
 
Re: My Final Word on Hedo

my only concern is the money...thats all.
otherwise hes a great player and a great add to the team.
 
Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

andalusian said:
No, I agree with you - it was not great, but for a good role-player thrust into the primary play-maker position for a team that went to the finals... It was very nice.
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That's the crux, I think. He was a role-player who had a nice playoffs in that context. Unfortunately, he's being characterized as a veteran star or near-star who had a dominant playoffs and he wants to be paid that way.

Ultimately, if Turk is the best Portland can do with the cap space, then it's better to sign him (since he will help) then let the cap space evaporate unused. But I'm not at all convinced that he's a better buy than other role-players (who actually are characterized as role-players) who may cost less and are younger (thus able to contribute at prime level over their entire contract length), like Ariza or Childress.
 
Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Minstrel said:
That's the crux, I think. He was a role-player who had a nice playoffs in that context. Unfortunately, he's being characterized as a veteran star or near-star who had a dominant playoffs and he wants to be paid that way.
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Is Josh Smith a star? How about Emeka Okafor? Josh Howard? Nene? Ben Gordon? Biedrins? Chris Kaman? Andrew Bynum?, Andrew Bogut? Tyson Chandler? Eddy Curry? Rashard Lewis? Samuel Dalambert? Elton Brand? Jason Richardson? Richard Jefferson? Antwan Jefferson?

All these guys make more than $10m per year. Each and every one of them.

Turk is a super-efficient upper-level role-player who fits a need and presents a unique set of attributes. I wish we could limit the guaranteed years to him to 3 with 2 more years being a team option (or at least, partially guaranteed) - but it is not likely we get him without it.

Like it or not - $10m/per is probably the going rate for upper-level role players with the ability to put the ball on the floor and run the offense.

Is he perfect? No. LeBron James is perfect for this team, so is Chris Paul or Deron Williams - but these guys are not coming and he is the best we can do with the last time we will have cap space for quite some time. Add the fact that for a super-role player this seems to be the going rate - and overall - it is not a bad choice.
 
Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Minstrel said:
That's the crux, I think. He was a role-player who had a nice playoffs in that context. Unfortunately, he's being characterized as a veteran star or near-star who had a dominant playoffs and he wants to be paid that way.
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That's not how I think of him at all. I think of Hedo as a role player - a VERY good role player, but not as star. He's never been an all-star, and hasn't really deserved to be one. He does certain things very well (hence, the role player label) and it just so happens they thing he does best is a very important thing this team lacks. He runs the pick-and-roll better than any other small forward in the league, and WAY better than anyone we have on our roster. This will be his biggest contribution. His ability to run the pick-and-roll will make Greg Oden a MUCH more effective offensive player.

And, it will help the rest of the team as well. While the pick and roll starts as a two man play, it also creates easy shots for other players. If it is run correctly, Oden will often end up with a smaller player (a small forward) on him if the defense jump switches. That means a second defender, usually the power forward, will often leave his man to double the center rolling to the basket. That will mean more open shots for LaMarcus, and if the other team rotates another player (usually a guard) to cover LaMarcus, that means we'll have a wide open 3-point shooter (Rudy, Hinrich, Blake???) camped out at the 3-point line (this is why I prefer Hinrich to Miller). When the pick-and roll is run properly, it creates multiple mismatches and leads to open shots. That's why it's still such a popular play after all these decades - when done rright, it works. Hedo does it right.

Besides, having "stars" at all five positions doesn't work so well. You need guys to feed the ball to those stars. Hedo isn't a great, or even very good, 1-on-1 player. He is best in a team concept, which is eaxctly what we need as a complimentary player to go with Roy, Aldridge and Oden.

BNM
 
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Re: My Final Word on Hedo

BTOWN_HUSTLA said:
?

For us waiting 2 years for our cap space, to blow it on Hedo doesn't really excite me.
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Does getting nothing excite you more? The goal isn't to excite you, it's to make the team better. If Hedo is the best available option, he's a good use of the cap space. He's certainly an upgrade over our existing small forwards. So, I don't really care if he costs $10 million a year, or $1 million. We will be over the cap forever starting next summer. Paul Allen has said he'll spend what it talkes to win. So, how far we're over the cap is pretty irrelevant. It's Paul Allen's money, not mine. So, I'd rather have him overpay to upgrade the team than to do nothing as save a few million of his dollars.

BNM
 
Re: My Final Word on Hedo

Boob-No-More said:
Paul Allen has said he'll spend what it talkes to win. So, how far we're over the cap is pretty irrelevant. It's Paul Allen's money, not mine. So, I'd rather have him overpay to upgrade the team than to do nothing as save a few million of his dollars.
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Well, there is something to be said about flexibility for future moves - so the smaller the contract is, even if we are going to be over the cap anyway, the better.

But, as shown above - this seems to be the going rate for big impact role-players - so overall, it is not too bad.
 
Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

andalusian said:
Is Josh Smith a star? How about Emeka Okafor? Josh Howard? Nene? Ben Gordon? Biedrins? Chris Kaman? Andrew Bynum?, Andrew Bogut? Tyson Chandler? Eddy Curry? Rashard Lewis? Samuel Dalambert? Elton Brand? Jason Richardson? Richard Jefferson? Antwan Jefferson?
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All of those players were either significantly better or significantly younger than Hedo at the time they signed their deals. Many of them are centers, who receive a premium in terms of salary.

The thing is the Hedo is inferior to most players on that list even ignoring those factors at the times of of their signings.

Ed O.
 
Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

andalusian said:
Is Josh Smith a star? How about Emeka Okafor? Josh Howard? Nene? Ben Gordon? Biedrins? Chris Kaman? Andrew Bynum?, Andrew Bogut? Tyson Chandler? Eddy Curry? Rashard Lewis? Samuel Dalambert? Elton Brand? Jason Richardson? Richard Jefferson? Antwan Jefferson?

All these guys make more than $10m per year. Each and every one of them.
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Smith, Howard, Gordon, Biedrins, Nene, Lewis and Brand are all stars or near-stars. Bynum is debatably a near-star...his on-court production has been strong, but he's missed a lot of time to injuries. The others are examples of overpaid players.

So, I agree...Turkoglu wouldn't be the only overpaid role-player. Of course, my contention was never that he would be. Just that over-paying for a role-player (I don't consider him a "super role-player," as you class him) is not the best choice. It's probably a superior choice to not using the cap space at all, which I've been consistent in saying.

My hope is that Pritchard can spend the money more efficiently, by acquiring an impact player (which would probably require a lopsided trade, since the free agent market is weak this year). If not, spending it somewhat inefficiently is better than not spending it at all, since the opportunity is close to one-shot.
 
Re: My Final Word on Hedo

andalusian said:
Well, there is something to be said about flexibility for future moves - so the smaller the contract is, even if we are going to be over the cap anyway, the better.
Not necessarily true. In the last year, a bloated expriring contract becomes a trade asset.

So, if Hedo remains productive for the first three years of a 5-year contract, it's only during the 4th year that his trade value is low. In the 5th year, he becomes a big expriring contract, which could actually bring us back significant talent from a team looking to dump salary and rebuild.

BNM
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Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Ed O said:
He was a key contributor to the Magic in their run, no doubt, but overall he wasn't statistically impressive.

Ed O.
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If he's a key contributor to our run in the Playoffs, isn't that sufficient?
 
Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Crimson the Cat said:
If he's a key contributor to our run in the Playoffs, isn't that sufficient?
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Sure. The question always is, can Portland can an even better contributor for the money?

If not, bring on Turk!
 
Re: Do We Even Need TurkeyBoy?

Minstrel said:
Sure. The question always is, can Portland can an even better contributor for the money?
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If we could, wouldn't we?

Artest would be fantastic, but could his personality rub others the wrong way. Would his style of game not fit as well as we think?

Would Ariza hurt the development or not have the overall team impact that Hedo does?

Was NJ's cost to land Carter (a young prospect: i.e. Rudy, Batum, Jerryd) too much?

I don't know these answers, but I'm confident Pritchard does.
 
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