Merged: Here's A Scoop On Outlaw

[Stevenson]

Re: Here's A Scoop On Outlaw

let me take a guess... thats what you're hoping for

STOMP

Uh, no. I actually quite like Travis and his game. He's a great 6th man. Not perfect, but he's a 6th man.

 

[MARIS61]

Re: Here's A Scoop On Outlaw

Webster does many things as well as or better than both Travis and Batum. He's a better defender than Travis and equal to Batum. He garners more respect among NBA coaches and defenders for his long-range shooting than either TO or Nico. As such, he loosens the defense. He's a better passer than Travis or Nico. He has a higher BBIQ than Travis and equal to that of Batum. He's a better ballhandler than both of them. He's a better driver than both of them. He moves without the ball better than both of them. Bottom line, with him in the lineup, we have more threats and options than we do without him. He's a combination of the best of Travis and Nico and also adds other attributes to the party.

I disagree.

Other than stroking the 3, which Martell does as well as Blake, I'd take TO and/or Nic as they are better than Martell in everything else. I really don't know what you are basing this on.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Re: Here's A Scoop On Outlaw

I disagree.

Other than stroking the 3, which Martell does as well as Blake, I'd take TO and/or Nic as they are better than Martell in everything else. I really don't know what you are basing this on.

Probably the same thing you are basing your opinion on........what you see.

TO is not better than Webster at hardly anything by the way. TO misses countless assignments and unless he is scoring, he does absolutely nothing to help the team win. Martell is much more fundamentally sound on the boards, defense and where to be on offense. No need t bring up stats by the way. I know Outlaws are better.

 

[STOMP]

Uh, no. I actually quite like Travis and his game. He's a great 6th man. Not perfect, but he's a 6th man.

huh, misread on my part... I stand corrected.

STOMP

 

[STOMP]

Probably the same thing you are basing your opinion on........what you see.

TO is not better than Webster at hardly anything by the way. TO misses countless assignments and unless he is scoring, he does absolutely nothing to help the team win. Martell is much more fundamentally sound on the boards, defense and where to be on offense. No need t bring up stats by the way. I know Outlaws are better.

nice ostrich impression. It's a pretty weak argument when the data says you're wrong, but you're welcome to your opinion.

STOMP

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Re: Here's A Scoop On Outlaw

Webster does many things as well as or better than both Travis and Batum. He's a better defender than Travis and equal to Batum. He garners more respect among NBA coaches and defenders for his long-range shooting than either TO or Nico. As such, he loosens the defense. He's a better passer than Travis or Nico. He has a higher BBIQ than Travis and equal to that of Batum. He's a better ballhandler than both of them. He's a better driver than both of them. He moves without the ball better than both of them. Bottom line, with him in the lineup, we have more threats and options than we do without him. He's a combination of the best of Travis and Nico and also adds other attributes to the party.

I agree with this. People are saying that Webster isn't close to as good on defense as Batum and they have stats to back it up. I really think that stats only prove that a player plays good defense in some isolated cases. Steals and blocks do not usually indicate who is a great defensive player. I would only say Batum is slight better on defense.

And to say Batum is a better offensive player is ridiculous. He barely shot any threes and when he did it was like this: He would take one three early and if he made it he would keep shooting. But, if he missed he would not shoot again. This shows inconsistency and dramatically increases his shooting percentage. Batum is completely incapable of driving to the basket. I do not remember once all year where he took it to the hoop, unless it was on a pass off when he had a wide open lane. Webster has some handles and was expected to have even better handles this year. Batum can't dribble any better that Outlaw.

I know that Batum is way younger and he will only improve, but I still think Webster fits better in the starting lineup. Assuming Bayless is the backup point guard, it would fit better to have Batum in the second unit and Webster in the first unit because of offensive capabilities.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Re: Here's A Scoop On Outlaw

I agree with this. People are saying that Webster isn't close to as good on defense as Batum and they have stats to back it up. I really think that stats only prove that a player plays good defense in some isolated cases. Steals and blocks do not usually indicate who is a great defensive player. I would only say Batum is slight better on defense.

And to say Batum is a better offensive player is ridiculous. He barely shot any threes and when he did it was like this: He would take one three early and if he made it he would keep shooting. But, if he missed he would not shoot again. This shows inconsistency and dramatically increases his shooting percentage. Batum is completely incapable of driving to the basket. I do not remember once all year where he took it to the hoop, unless it was on a pass off when he had a wide open lane. Webster has some handles and was expected to have even better handles this year. Batum can't dribble any better that Outlaw.

I know that Batum is way younger and he will only improve, but I still think Webster fits better in the starting lineup. Assuming Bayless is the backup point guard, it would fit better to have Batum in the second unit and Webster in the first unit because of offensive capabilities.

Half of Nicolas 4 FG attempts per game were threes, Nicolas Routinely handled the ball just fine with several memorable posterizing dunks (two on Pau especially jump out) and Nic was great at tapping the ball away from guards and becoming a one man fast break for a layup or dunk. Nic didn't put up ridiculous offensive numbers, but he's already a far better ball handler than I remember Martell being and he did this as a ridiculously young guy at 19-20.

I can only surmise that you didn't actually watch many Blazers games this season.

 

[STOMP]

Half of Nicolas 4 FG attempts per game were threes, Nicolas Routinely handled the ball just fine with several memorable posterizing dunks (two on Pau especially jump out) and Nic was great at tapping the ball away from guards and becoming a one man fast break for a layup or dunk. Nic didn't put up ridiculous offensive numbers, but he's already a far better ball handler than I remember Martell being and he did this as a ridiculously young guy at 19-20.

Martell's career 3pt % is 0.372. Batum shot 0.369 last year

there is no question that Martell has the prettiest form/mechanics on the club, but it's the results that make it onto the scoreboard.

STOMP

 

[hasoos]

Re: Here's A Scoop On Outlaw

Adjusted +/-, PER differential, and other stats can measure defense decently. The rest of your assertions are false, neither statistics, nor observation support them.

Except for one fact. Websters are based off of previous teams which were not as good as a whole. The team lost more games as a whole. Batum's are based off of this years team, which won a lot more games because of the progression of team members across the board. Webster never played with the team being 2 7' centers deep on the team. Webster never played with Brandon Roy playing at the level he did this year. The facts are that last year, it was Webster who got all those tough assignments on D, and the facts are he usually did a pretty damn good job defending guys. I seem to remember the Cleveland game last year he actually had held Lebron down to a dull roar. Then the Blazers put Roy on him, and he went off on the guy 2 inches shorter, and weighing much less.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Re: Here's A Scoop On Outlaw

Half of Nicolas 4 FG attempts per game were threes, Nicolas Routinely handled the ball just fine with several memorable posterizing dunks (two on Pau especially jump out) and Nic was great at tapping the ball away from guards and becoming a one man fast break for a layup or dunk. Nic didn't put up ridiculous offensive numbers, but he's already a far better ball handler than I remember Martell being and he did this as a ridiculously young guy at 19-20.

I can only surmise that you didn't actually watch many Blazers games this season.

Batum did not routinely handle the ball.. at all. He almost never dribbled more than three dribbles at a time, and was always standing in the same spot when he did so (I'm not blaming this on him, I know it is the offense). And those dunks have nothing to do with my point, he did not dribble past anyone that was playing defense on him.. Maybe he got past them with a pump fake as they were closing out but anyone can do that.

It is just your opinion that Batum handles the ball better than Webster, and I disagree strongly. Plus, I specifically remember all of the coaches saying Martell was coming in to camp/pre-season in the best shape out of anyone and having worked the hardest out of anyone. In fact, I am pretty sure he got some actual award-like recognition for this. I also remember that during that off-season he had worked on his ball handling more than anything else, and with his reported work ethic that summer, why would one not think that he would be coming in with vastly improved handles? And remember that Martell is only 22.

I watched all but 2 games all year.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Re: Here's A Scoop On Outlaw

Batum did not routinely handle the ball.. at all. He almost never dribbled more than three dribbles at a time, and was always standing in the same spot when he did so (I'm not blaming this on him, I know it is the offense). And those dunks have nothing to do with my point, he did not dribble past anyone that was playing defense on him.. Maybe he got past them with a pump fake as they were closing out but anyone can do that.

No one is ever going to confuse Nicolas for a point guard with his current handle, but when he's moving in space he's neither clumsy with his dribble nor prone to getting the ball stripped. I fully agree that he didn't show a lot of drives or ability to get past defenders off the bounce, but when you look at his ball handling numbers here: http://www.82games.com/0809/08POR6.HTM his turnovers were equal parts bad passes to ball handling errors for a "respectable" hands rating of 11. For comparison's sake he was slightly better than Kevin Durant in this respect, and he's certainly no turnover machine when handling the ball (http://www.82games.com/0809/08OKC9.HTM)

If you think he's so awful look at the hands rating of some other 3s around the league:
John Salmons: http://www.82games.com/0809/08CHI8.HTM
Josh Howard:http://www.82games.com/0809/08DAL8.HTM
Gerald Wallace:http://www.82games.com/0809/08CHA12.HTM
Luol Deng:http://www.82games.com/0809/08CHI9.HTM
Ron Artest: http://www.82games.com/0809/08HOU10.HTM

It is just your opinion that Batum handles the ball better than Webster, and I disagree strongly. Plus, I specifically remember all of the coaches saying Martell was coming in to camp/pre-season in the best shape out of anyone and having worked the hardest out of anyone. In fact, I am pretty sure he got some actual award-like recognition for this. I also remember that during that off-season he had worked on his ball handling more than anything else, and with his reported work ethic that summer, why would one not think that he would be coming in with vastly improved handles? And remember that Martell is only 22.

I watched all but 2 games all year.

It's not just my opinion. If you go back to Martell's third season and look at his "hands rating" Nicolas is a full two points better than Webs was in his third (and arguably best) season in the league. Furthermore, Webster's turnovers using a ratio of bad-pass to ball-handling errors were double Nicolas' suggesting a worse handle http://www.82games.com/0708/07POR7A.HTM.

As for the things coaches were saying about Martell's work ethic or supposed improved ball-handling during the off-season none of that matters a damn until you see it on the floor -- supposedly Sergio worked his ass off improving his jump shot and not much changed in that department once the regular season got rolling.

I like Webster and I think he can be a worthwhile addition to the roster next season but I don't expect Martell to come in with a vastly improved handle, because there was nothing in his first 3 seasons that suggested he was making much progress in that area, if he does then that's great, but all of the stuff you are saying about Martell vs. Batum isn't rooted in anything with any tangible evidence to back it up.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Re: Here's A Scoop On Outlaw

but when you look at his ball handling numbers here: http://www.82games.com/0809/08POR6.HTM his turnovers were equal parts bad passes to ball handling errors for a "respectable" hands rating of 11. For comparison's sake he was slightly better than Kevin Durant in this respect, and he's certainly no turnover machine when handling the ball (http://www.82games.com/0809/08OKC9.HTM)

If you think he's so awful look at the hands rating of some other 3s around the league:
John Salmons: http://www.82games.com/0809/08CHI8.HTM
Josh Howard:http://www.82games.com/0809/08DAL8.HTM
Gerald Wallace:http://www.82games.com/0809/08CHA12.HTM
Luol Deng:http://www.82games.com/0809/08CHI9.HTM
Ron Artest: http://www.82games.com/0809/08HOU10.HTM

I'm not much of a stats guy but wouldn't those numbers be severely inflated because of the fact that those players handle the ball a lot more?


ADDITION: Not just handling, but trying way more often to drive and/or make something happen.

all of the stuff you are saying about Martell vs. Batum isn't rooted in anything with any tangible evidence to back it up.

I guess we will see. Honestly I would have no problem with Batum starting right away again, but I believe it should be an open competition in camp and pre-season. Whoever doesn't start should still get good burn with the second unit.

 

[STOMP]

Except for one fact. Websters are based off of previous teams which were not as good as a whole. The team lost more games as a whole. Batum's are based off of this years team, which won a lot more games because of the progression of team members across the board. Webster never played with the team being 2 7' centers deep on the team. Webster never played with Brandon Roy playing at the level he did this year. The facts are that last year, it was Webster who got all those tough assignments on D, and the facts are he usually did a pretty damn good job defending guys.

no dude, thats just your opinion. Not only do I and other members of the board disagree with it, but KP seems to as well. In nearly every interview from the mid 2007-8 season going up to the draft, he spoke to wanting to add a good perimeter wing defender... and then he went out and traded up for Batum who came advertised as exactly that. I honestly don't know why anyone would rate his D as above average. To me he's average on a good night and downright sad on others.

make excuses for him all you want, but the team sure did get a lot better with him completely out of the rotation didn't they?

STOMP

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Re: Here's A Scoop On Outlaw

no dude, thats just your opinion. Not only do I and other members of the board disagree with it, but KP seems to as well. In nearly every interview from the mid 2007-8 season going up to the draft, he spoke to wanting to add a good perimeter wing defender... and then he went out and traded up for Batum who came advertised as exactly that. I honestly don't know why anyone would rate his D as above average. To me he's average on a good night and downright sad on others.

make excuses for him all you want, but the team sure did get a lot better with him completely out of the rotation didn't they?

STOMP

That is a ridiculous thing to say.

 

[RoyToy]

Re: Here's A Scoop On Outlaw

Martell is about the same level of defender as Outlaw. Lack the lateral quickness to keep the guy in front of them. Batum otoh does a pretty good job of keeping his man in front of him and doesn't get beat very often.

Offensively Martell is just a jump shooter. Every year he's been in the league 50% of his FGA are 3pt shots. That obviously isn't even counting 18ft jumpers.

In the end Outlaw and Martell are streaky players and you're never 100% sure what you're going to get out of them. With Batum you know he's going to be on his man like white on rice and not get beat. Offensively he's pretty raw but he's developing. He finishes nicely at the hoop(especially on a fast break) and his 3pt% last year was respectable.

 

[STOMP]

That is a ridiculous thing to say.

apparently you didn't read the post I was responding to which was filled with excuses as to why poor Martell's performance/stats suffered.

STOMP

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Re: Here's A Scoop On Outlaw

This guy won't let facts get in the way of his opinions.
I fucking hate posters like him.

VanillaGorilla that is, STOMP is cool.

You don't know what you are talking about. All I said was that it is ridiculous to say that the reason we did so well this year was because Martell got injured. And that is what your good friend STOMP was implying.

I was not the poster supplying all those excuses for Webster, although I do like Webster. Earlier I did admit to not knowing much about all those special stats and I never simply refuted facts because they didn't support my opinion, contrary to what you seem to think.

I am sorry that you "fucking hate" me and posters like me simply because I have opinions.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Re: Here's A Scoop On Outlaw

No, I hate posters who don't let the facts get in the way of their opinions, and I "implied" that you might be one of them. However, there is still time! There is still hope!
I'd recommend taking a little time to familiarize yourself with some of the advanced basketball statistics, they get thrown around a lot here, and few know how to use them.
I confused you a bit with DufferDuck who I was responding to in another post. Anyhow, I believe that statistics will show that Batum has been a better player than Webster has at this point in their career. Webster has a lousy/Outlaw-esque handle and Batum is at least average, I believe that statistics will show this to be the case.

I believe that upon familiarizing yourself with some advanced metrics, you will agree with my perspective as you seem reasonable. Some people though, just don't fucking get it, and I'm a bit annoyed about it, especially on another forum that is more heavily moderated.

No offense

Fair enough.

 

[STOMP]

You don't know what you are talking about. All I said was that it is ridiculous to say that the reason we did so well this year was because Martell got injured. And that is what your good friend STOMP was implying.

the frowny face for reading comprehension goes to you. I basically said losing Martell for the year didn't get in the way of the team's success this year, which speaks to his level of contribution. I think he's been a pretty mediocre at best performer in his 3 years in the league.

HurraKane212... have we ever quoted each other let alone met? I truly was not aware that we were good friends, but

STOMP

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

UPDATED Scoop On Outlaw

Sorry I forgot to post this earlier. Had lunch again at my fav lunch place and talked with the owner again about Travis. I asked if Travis has been told or otherwise informed he was gone. He tells me that it's just a feeling Travis has as he sees Nate wanting a more defensively oriented backup PF and that isn't him. Also, he states that if Webster comes back and with the desire to find minutes for Batum, he has a gut feeling that if a trade will be made for a veteran PF or move up in the draft for a PG that he'll somehow be involved.

So, bottom line, there is no official team talk about an Outlaw trade, just a strong feeling Travis has.

 

[hasoos]

Re: UPDATED Scoop On Outlaw

Sounds to me like a confidence issue. He has reason to be worried, surely.

 

[STOMP]

Sounds to me like a confidence issue. He has reason to be worried, surely.

maybe he should book an appointment with Martell's shrink?

STOMP

 

[Mediocre Man]

nice ostrich impression. It's a pretty weak argument when the data says you're wrong, but you're welcome to your opinion.

STOMP

How in the world can data show someone is more fundamental than another person?

That being said, I think a lot of Blazers fans are suffering the same thins with Martell that L*ker fans did when Vagynum was out. In that he suddenly got a lot better than what he really was. Webster has never been anything more than an inconsistant player.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

maybe he should book an appointment with Martell's shrink?

STOMP

Is that a joke or does Martel have a shrink?

 

[Nikolokolus]

Is that a joke or does Martel have a shrink?

Martell did see a sports psychologist after his second season ... I seem to recall Jason Quick writing about it at the time.

 

[STOMP]

Is that a joke or does Martel have a shrink?

as Nik stated, MW saw a sports psychologist for a while reportedly because of his confidence issues. Even without Batum in the fold, I don't think either Travis or Martell have much reason to feel that a significant role on the Blazers is a given.

How in the world can data show someone is more fundamental than another person?

My response to you was primarily about what I bolded from your quote. Rereading, I'm not sure what you're confused about.

STOMP

 

[BrianFromWA]

Re: Here's A Scoop On Outlaw

That's astonishing.

Webster has never been a good defender. McMillian said we WANT him to become a good defender, but so far, he is not.

KP said in October that Batum was "on par" with MW defensively, not "better"

He has never, on his best day and in his proudest moment, been the defender that Batum is at this moment. I believe the statistics support my conclusion as well.

Like when MW shut down K*be for 8 points in 2 1/2 quarters before being subbed for Travis, and K*be ended up with 37 (iirc)? In that proudest moment?

Also, Martell is not known for his passing, rebounding, or ability to block shots or garner steals. Batum is ahead of Webster in all these areas. Batum scored less, that is all.

He scored low enough that, even if I accept as truth everything you just said, our coach decided he was worth 15 mpg. Would Webs have played less, if healthy?

 

[BrianFromWA]

BTW, I like Batum a lot. I hope he and MW have an insane battle for the starting 3 position next October. I'll be ok with whoever wins, knowing that the 2nd-stringer will be good-to-great.

 

[Minstrel]

Re: Here's A Scoop On Outlaw

KP said in October that Batum was "on par" with MW defensively, not "better"

That was before Batum had played an actual NBA game. Batum was still considered a raw, unproven project back then. Things have changed considerably over the course of his rookie season. Batum was Portland's best perimeter defender, by a pretty wide margin. Webster has never been anything more than mediocre defensively. Not awful, but not good.

 

[PapaG]

Re: Here's A Scoop On Outlaw

KP said in October that Batum was "on par" with MW defensively, not "better"

So a guy who stunk in the Summer League and who had never played an NBA game was "on par" with Webster defensively? I'm wondering how that sheds a positive light on Webster's defensive ability.