Merged: Turkoglu to leave the Magic?

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Trader Ed said:
John Stockton? Karl Malone? Charles Barkley?

these guys are not clutch players either I guess?
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Mailman didnt deliver on Sundays remember. :) Stockton was pretty clutch though, they just ran into a certain guy named Michael. Poor guys, just born in the wrong years.
 
You can spin it any way you want, but he gagged at the most critical point of the game. Just like I said he would.
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No...Dwight Howard did...get your facts straight...
 
oldmangrouch said:
Meh. What do you expect. There are people here who wouldn't trade Outlaw for Lebron, Webster for Melo, or Oden for Howard. On a good day they might trade Rudy for Chris Paul...but only if NO threw in a couple of future picks! :crazy:
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Really? Who are those people, and instead of building strawmen, why won't anybody address Hedo's below-average shooting and PER in both his playoff career and this year's playoffs?
 
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PapaG said:
Really? Who are those people, and instead of building strawmen, why won't anybody address Hedo's below-average shooting and PER in both his playoff career and this year's playoffs?
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If the guy sucks so much, why is Orlando in the NBA Finals? He's helping them more than hurting them, anybody can see that. There's more to the game of basketball than just John Hollinger's PER stats.
 
alex42083 said:
If the guy sucks so much, why is Orlando in the NBA Finals? He's helping them more than hurting them, anybody can see that. There's more to the game of basketball than just John Hollinger's PER stats.
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Primarily because they have Dwight Howard. Hedo is shooting below average as well, and he doesn't rotate well on defense. Without Dwight Howard in the paint that team couldn't stop anybody. As it is, the Lakers aren't having much difficulty scoring outside of Bryant chucking up guarded shots on Pietrus.

How does Hedo put the Blazers over the top? What in his playoff history illustrates he is the missing piece to a championship team? I didn't say he sucks, but by most objective statistical measures he's been below average for his career in the playoffs. That's his history. I'm wondering how this year's playoffs changes anything.
 
PapaG said:
Primarily because they have Dwight Howard. Hedo is shooting below average as well, and he doesn't rotate well on defense. Without Dwight Howard in the paint that team couldn't stop anybody. As it is, the Lakers aren't having much difficulty scoring outside of Bryant chucking up guarded shots on Pietrus.

How does Hedo put the Blazers over the top? What in his playoff history illustrates he is the missing piece to a championship team? I didn't say he sucks, but by most objective statistical measures he's been below average for his career in the playoffs. That's his history. I'm wondering how this year's playoffs changes anything.
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Dwight Howard is as much to blame for yesterday's loss than Hedo. He missed two game-clinching free throws, was only 5-12 from the field, 6 of 14 from the FT line.
Certainly whether Hedo is good for the Blazers can be up for debate, but to say the Magic are Eastern Conference champions and in the NBA finals 'in spite' of Hedo Turkoglu is just not a true statement when he's hit several game-clinching shots for them.
 
alex42083 said:
Dwight Howard is as much to blame for yesterday's loss than Hedo. He missed two game-clinching free throws, was only 5-12 from the field, 6 of 14 from the FT line.Certainly whether Hedo is good for the Blazers can be up for debate, but to say the Magic are Eastern Conference champions and in the NBA finals 'in spite' of Hedo Turkoglu is just not a true statement when he's hit several game-clinching shots for them.
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He also had 21 rebounds, blocked 9 shots, and got the entire Laker front line in foul trouble. If you tact is to blame Dwight Howard for one game, then looking at statistics over the playoffs, I can just as easily say that he is the primary reason they are in the Finals. And yes, Howard did miss clutch FTs, just as Hedo did. The difference is that Howard isn't know for his FT shooting.

Unless a 13.4 PER over 22 games is somehow more important that a 26.2 PER, that is, in terms of why the Magic are in the Finals. I have statistics, you have opinion, so you resort to falsely accusing me of saying Hedo "sucks". Also, which "game-clinching" shots has Turkoglu hit? I remember the one against Cleveland prior to LeBron James hitting the miracle three to win the game, and I remember Rashard Lewis with 2 game-clinching 3s in these playoffs.
 
I guess Hedo's a good guy to have on your team if you want to finish 2nd.
 
alex42083 said:
Dwight Howard is as much to blame for yesterday's loss than Hedo. He missed two game-clinching free throws, was only 5-12 from the field, 6 of 14 from the FT line.
Certainly whether Hedo is good for the Blazers can be up for debate, but to say the Magic are Eastern Conference champions and in the NBA finals 'in spite' of Hedo Turkoglu is just not a true statement when he's hit several game-clinching shots for them.
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I don't know who is saying that. I'm certainly not. My argument is that Hedo is not someone the Blazers should covet.
 
PapaG said:
He also had 21 rebounds, blocked 9 shots, and got the entire Laker front line in foul trouble. If you tact is to blame Dwight Howard for one game, then looking at statistics over the playoffs, I can just as easily say that he is the primary reason they are in the Finals. And yes, Howard did miss clutch FTs, just as Hedo did. The difference is that Howard isn't know for his FT shooting.

Unless a 13.4 PER over 22 games is somehow more important that a 26.2 PER, that is, in terms of why the Magic are in the Finals. I have statistics, you have opinion, so you resort to falsely accusing me of saying Hedo "sucks". Also, which "game-clinching" shots has Turkoglu hit? I remember the one against Cleveland prior to LeBron James hitting the miracle three to win the game, and I remember Rashard Lewis with 2 game-clinching 3s in these playoffs.
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[video=youtube;a3Uq5Ib8U78]

[video=youtube;L0C2_gcbH3o]

[video=youtube;RPpo0NyBeLA]

[video=youtube;eDexf_BdrnE]
 
alex42083 said:
This is what I was referring to.
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I said an argument could be made. How is 42% FG shooting, 35% 3 PT shooting, and 2.8 TOs a game a definitive positive? People complain about inconsistent players on the Blazers, yet Hedo has been the very definition of inconsistent in these playoffs. Hedo has scored 21+ points 6 times in 22 playoff games. The Magic are 2-4 in those games. He needs to shoot LESS and get the ball in the hands of his teammates.

The biggest plus about Turkoglu is that he can get his shot off by himself, and Orlando really doesn't have anybody else who can do that. That said, Roy is the Blazers primary ball handler at the end of games, so I have to wonder what Turkoglu's role would be on this team considering he is a worse defender than Nic Batum.
 
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Re: Hedo is the answer!

Stevenson said:
Does anyone else see that Hedo is the answer? He starts at SF, he can handle the point like Brandon (or for that matter, kinda like Pip used to), he's clutch city, he has a deadly three, he spreads the defenses for Greg and LaMarcus, and he takes the scoring load off everyone.

Boston, and Chicago before that, proved that you can win a championship without an all-star PG if you surround him with studs. And I like Blakey, he's very solid.

Can we get Hedo, can we afford him, would he leave? Those answers I do not know.
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He shot 35% from 3 this season and is a career 38% shooter from 3. :dunno:
 
PapaG said:
I said an argument could be made. How is 42% FG shooting, 35% 3 PT shooting, and 2.8 TOs a game a definitive positive? People complain about inconsistent players on the Blazers, yet Hedo has been the very definition of inconsistent in these playoffs. Hedo has scored 21+ points 6 times in 22 playoff games. The Magic are 2-4 in those games. He needs to shoot LESS and get the ball in the hands of his teammates.

The biggest plus about Turkoglu is that he can get his shot off by himself, and Orlando really doesn't have anybody else who can do that. That said, Roy is the Blazers primary ball handler at the end of games, so I have to wonder what Turkoglu's role would be on this team considering he is a worse defender than Nic Batum.
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Kobe's shooting 45 percent from the field, 34 percent from 3-point range, and averaging 2.6 TOs a game. Not too much of a difference.
Hedo's not Kobe obviously, but Hedo's played pretty well for a guy who's now been asked to handle the ball as a point forward in place of an inconsisent Alston and even more inconsistent Nelson.

The whole thing about whether Hedo would be a good fit for the Blazers is another issue, and I'd understand if some would feel he wouldn't be a good player for us.
I'm just saying that Hedo's played a pretty big role for the Magic in getting them to where they are, and they're there more because of him, and not in spite of him.
 
If you have watched this series and don't think Hedo is perfect for our team, then please have your basketball knowledge checked
 
alex42083 said:
Kobe's shooting 45 percent from the field, 34 percent from 3-point range, and averaging 2.6 TOs a game. Not too much of a difference.Hedo's not Kobe obviously, but Hedo's played pretty well for a guy who's now been asked to handle the ball as a point forward in place of an inconsisent Alston and even more inconsistent Nelson.

The whole thing about whether Hedo would be a good fit for the Blazers is another issue, and I'd understand if some would feel he wouldn't be a good player for us.
I'm just saying that Hedo's played a pretty big role for the Magic in getting them to where they are, and they're there more because of him, and not in spite of him.
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Kobe Bryant's playoff PER is literally double that of Hedo's, but that's another argument. Perhaps it appears we are both taking extreme positions when neither of us are taking one. My only point is that Hedo may appear to be better than he is because he does handle the ball so well in the half court offense, but when you peel back the statistical layers, the style may not equate to substance. I'd consider him at ~$6-8 million, but as already posted, somebody will overpay for him, and I don't want the Blazers to give up players in an effort to get him.

I guess I am seeing his limitations the more I watch of him in these playoffs, and when I researched the stats, I found some validation for my initial opinion.
 
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I'm with PapaG on this one. Don't care to rehash a lot of the same arguments made over the last 8 pages, but I've seen people mention 10+ a year for him, and, no thank you. 6-8? Sure. Can't hurt. I just don't see the value of him at 10 a year on our squad.
 
MAS RipCity said:
If you have watched this series and don't think Hedo is perfect for our team, then please have your basketball knowledge checked
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Perimeter defense is the Blazers' biggest weakness, and with Oden developing, a spot-up shooter who can defend (Batum? Webster?) compliments the starting unit much better than a guy who you have to hide on defense. I certainly won't use Turkoglu as a litmus test on who has basketball knowledge and who does not. I'd spend the money on a PG who can defend versus a 30 year-old who will likely demand a long-term contract.

If the price is right, I don't have an issue with Turkoglu, but questioning someone's basketball IQ without considering other variables seems silly to me.
 
PapaG said:
Kobe Bryant's playoff PER is literally double that of Hedo's, but that' another argument. Perhaps it appears we are both taking extreme positions when neither of us are taking one. My only point is that Hedo may appear to be better than he is because he does handle the ball so well in the half court offense, but when you peel back the statistical layers, the style may not equate to substance. I'd consider him at ~$6-8 million, but as already posted, somebody will overpay for him, and I don't want the Blazers to give up players in an effort to get him.

I guess I am seeing his limitations the more I watch of him in these playoffs, and when I researched the stats, I found some validation for my initial opinion.
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No biggie. You make some good points, and Hedo's not a player you want to be your No. 1 option. And I appreciate that you at least backed up your arguments with stats rather than just making generalizations based on one game.

I agree also that he's not a $10 mil per type player, but if the Blazers could get him for $6-8 mil and if he is willing to be a No. 3 and sometimes No. 4 option, he'd be a really good player for us IMO.
 
PapaG said:
Perimeter defense is the Blazers' biggest weakness, and with Oden developing, a spot-up shooter who can defend (Batum? Webster?) compliments the starting unit much better than a guy who you have to hide on defense. I certainly won't use Turkoglu as a litmus test on who has basketball knowledge and who does not. I'd spend the money on a PG who can defend versus a 30 year-old who will likely demand a long-term contract.

If the price is right, I don't have an issue with Turkoglu, but questioning someone's basketball IQ without considering other variables seems silly to me.
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Batum is still going to get his 20 mins a night, so our D will stay the same. What we need is a 3rd scorer on a consistent basis, and that is Hedo
 
Perimeter defense is the Blazers' biggest weakness
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Perimeter defense?

Yeah it was bad, but it was not the biggest weakness....

We didn't have enough scorers...plain and simple...outside of Roy, there was NO ONE else who was a consistent 2nd, let alone 3rd scoring option for POR...Aldridge showed up for abput 1/2 the games to fill that #2 scoring role....Rudy had 1 game in a loss that he showed up...NO OTHER PLAYER could be relied on to score for POR in the HOU series...and THAT is the #1 problem with this team...not enough scoring....

Now you could be myopic and "hopeful" that guys like Rudy, Oden, Bayless, Webster or Outlaw :lol: develop into that 3rd guy...which may or may not happen....

OR you could take this ONE TIME OPPORTUNITY and use some of your cap space (cap space\opportunity that you will not have again for a long time) and over abundant but underdeveloped assets (young players\draft picks) and go and get that 3rd scoring option to compliment Roy and LA...and THEN if another guy does develop...be it Oden, Rudy, Bayless...then you can be in a VERY good position to make some serious NBA title runs....

Turkoglu isn't perfect...he isn't my first choice even...but he is a good player and he would be the 3rd scoring option on this team...and THAT is what POR needs first and foremost....

I agree, perimeter defense sucks...Sergio is not very good, Blake is underwhelming at best and Bayless is an unknown with potential....but adding another defender into the starting 5 doesn't help solve the #1 issue (scoring) that is the achilles heel in the playoffs for this team....

POR needs to address that shortfall first...
 
So how much are we signing Hedo to only play 28 minutes a night then? Also, Batum's limited minutes allowed us to get Roy and Rudy on the court together more often. So signing Hedo probably pushes Rudy down to 20 minutes a night, or pushes Roy down some.
 
Blaze01 said:
Perimeter defense?

Yeah it was bad, but it was not the biggest weakness....

We didn't have enough scorers...plain and simple...outside of Roy, there was NO ONE else who was a consistent 2nd, let alone 3rd scoring option for POR...Aldridge showed up for abput 1/2 the games to fill that #2 scoring role....Rudy had 1 game in a loss that he showed up...NO OTHER PLAYER could be relied on to score for POR in the HOU series...and THAT is the #1 problem with this team...not enough scoring....

Now you could be myopic and "hopeful" that guys like Rudy, Oden, Bayless, Webster or Outlaw :lol: develop into that 3rd guy...which may or may not happen....

OR you could take this ONE TIME OPPORTUNITY and use some of your cap space (cap space\opportunity that you will not have again for a long time) and over abundant but underdeveloped assets (young players\draft picks) and go and get that 3rd scoring option to compliment Roy and LA...and THEN if another guy does develop...be it Oden, Rudy, Bayless...then you can be in a VERY good position to make some serious NBA title runs....

Turkoglu isn't perfect...he isn't my first choice even...but he is a good player and he would be the 3rd scoring option on this team...and THAT is what POR needs first and foremost....

I agree, perimeter defense sucks...Sergio is not very good, Blake is underwhelming at best and Bayless is an unknown with potential....but adding another defender into the starting 5 doesn't help solve the #1 issue (scoring) that is the achilles heel in the playoffs for this team....

POR needs to address that shortfall first...
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LMA was/is a consistent 2nd scorer by any definition, and he proved he can be a primary option many times this season when he received the ball early in games.
 
MAS RipCity said:
Batum is still going to get his 20 mins a night, so our D will stay the same. What we need is a 3rd scorer on a consistent basis, and that is Hedo
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Again, at what price? I'm surprised you're indulging me, however, due to my apparent lack of basketball knowledge. :devilwink:
 
I'm in the camp that thinks this team needs a consistent 3rd scoring option and a player that can attack the rim. The only two players available via free agency that can do that are Artest and Hedo. We may not need them if Bayless can turn into that player or Oden's offensive game gets better. But I'd like to have Hedo instead of just hoping those two pan out. We're not going to have this cap space for a while, so we must look at the best possible options.
 
PapaG -

He wasn't in the playoffs...but I agree that he will develop into a consistent 2nd scoring option at worst....

My point wasn't with Aldridge, it was with who else is going to consistently show up for POR to be a succesful playoff team?

Maybe it comes from one of the young players on the team...but here POR sits with the chance to strike and get that 3rd scoring option....That is what I think they should be focused on...

DA O -

Nice point on the attacking the rim, Roy was the ONLY player for POR who showed that ability versus HOU...and it is a concern, you need to be able to manufacture points in the playoffs...just shooting jumpshots won't do it....
 
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