Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexually'

[Denny Crane]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Thanks for the link Denny.

Now, about the contents of that link. I hardly think it supports your argument in the way you think it does. Her strongest argument for statutory rape laws is that it makes the job of prosecutor easier. I'm sure that's true, but I'm also sure that I don't much care about making life easier for prosecutors.

barfo

What does she say about prosecutions of truly consensual partners?

Objection overruled.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sex...

Yep.

You want 13 year old girls getting pregnant?

Nope. I also question the benefit of arresting, trying, imprisoning and saddling them with the life-long title of "sex offender".

 

[barfo]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

What does she say about prosecutions of truly consensual partners?

Objection overruled.

She says it can happen, leading to grave injustices:

Still, reducing burdens of proof relies a great deal on trust – in victims and in prosecutors – that the omitted element will truly be present when cases come to trial. If and when that trust is misplaced, as may or may not have happened to Marcus Dwayne Dixon, a grave injustice can result.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

She says it can happen, leading to grave injustices:



barfo

If the justice system is corrupt, nobody can ever get a fair shake.

Another response to the concern about innocent men is more in keeping with feminist concerns. It is that when sexual activity with a minor is truly consensual, the activity is unlikely, at least in modern times, to be prosecuted. In other words, to the extent that statutory rape is truly a consensual and therefore victimless crime in a particular case, it is highly unlikely to generate a criminal action.

The same "end run" accusation can be leveled against statutory rape laws. Young girls may represent a substantial portion of rape victims, perhaps because they are vulnerable and have not yet become sufficiently suspicious of the people around them. In most cases, moreover, a truly consensual encounter with a minor will probably not be brought to a prosecutor's attention or trigger the prosecutorial will to punish.

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sex...

Nope. I also question the benefit of arresting, trying, imprisoning and saddling them with the life-long title of "sex offender".

What if they are actual sex offenders?

You know, like a kid that rapes a dozen 12 year olds.

 

[barfo]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Denny, there are laws against rape and various other sexual offenses that can be used when that's what actually happened.

Why do we need a law that defines consensual sex between two teenagers of roughly the same age as rape?

Weren't you once a teenager yourself?

barfo

 

[barfo]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

If the justice system is corrupt, nobody can ever get a fair shake.

So, if there was a law that you were subject to the death penalty if you cross 4th Street on a Tuesday, you'd be fine with that, because they probably won't prosecute you?

barfo

 

[maxiep]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Why do people care about what Michele Bachmann thinks?

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Skimming through this I don't know if posters understand that in Oregon:

when a defendant is charged with engaging in sexual intercourse with a victim who "does not consent" and "the victim's lack of consent was due solely to incapacity to consent by reason of being less than a specified age, it is a defense that the actor was under three years older than the victim at the time of the alleged offense."


Also in the tri-county area, prosecutors will prosecute regardless if the parents or the victim does not want to prosecute.

Statutory rape is not something that is treated lightly in this state . . . and I completely agree with this policy.

 

[jlprk]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

I'm learning 2 things about Denny here.

He is just an old-fashioned conservative, not some new Independent/Libertarian/Trickle Down/Whatever. He rations out freedom not by the rights of the boyfriend and girlfriend aged 14, but by whether we adults want teenage pregnancies. The same-old Top-Down method to designing freedom.

He matured sexually later than most people. He has no clue as to why most of us were big rebels at age 16. He thinks we were all vulnerable victims of senior, wise old 18-year-olds.

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Denny, there are laws against rape and various other sexual offenses that can be used when that's what actually happened.

Why do we need a law that defines consensual sex between two teenagers of roughly the same age as rape?

Weren't you once a teenager yourself?

barfo

Read what the law professor wrote about how feminists and progressives support the laws.

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

I'm learning 2 things about Denny here.

He is just an old-fashioned conservative, not some new Independent/Libertarian/Trickle Down/Whatever. He rations out freedom not by the rights of the boyfriend and girlfriend aged 14, but by whether we adults want teenage pregnancies. The same-old Top-Down method to designing freedom.

He matured sexually later than most people. He has no clue as to why most of us were big rebels at age 16. He thinks we were all vulnerable victims of senior, wise old 18-year-olds.

 

[oldguy]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Sticking to those top-of-the-pyramid crimes, eh? Talk to ordinary people on the street. Half of the males are felons, many for some pretty trivial things. (Like fishing without a license. Guy I met did 2 days in jail, but got a felony, since the judge could have given him a year.)

Wait.....what? Half the ordinary guys on the street are felons? I'm amazed, if this is true. Do you have a link to this?

Fishing without a license is a felony? For a citation? I thought crimes that can result in a sentence of a year or less were misdemeanors. No?

Go Blazers

 

[Sedatedfork]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

I'm going to surrender to Denny's trolling and post the wholesome Bachmann porn that he craves.

Now we know the inspiration for timber porn trolls.

 

[crandc]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Curious about the term "lady professor". Has Denny ever referred to a professor who is male as a "gentleman professor"?

Many states are using what they call "Romeo and Juliet" laws; if a couple are within a few years of each other and in a relationship, to clarify stat rape law. A 15 year old who dated an 18 year old for a year before sexual contact is not the same as a 30 year old and a 6 year old. As with any age based law you can debate the line. Some 16 year olds should not drive but some 30 year olds should not either. Some 21 year olds don't drink responsibly but some 50 year olds don't either. Etc. Laws at best deal with a hypothetical "average" maturity.

When I was 15 I was deeply in love with a person who was 18. Not in a million years can it be said to have harmed me. I accelerated my way through school (I really hated high school) and in consequence I was a 16 year old college student at Berkeley living on my own; and my girlfriend was 26. I can assure you I was not harmed.

Sadly, stat rape laws even when it's a couple close in age are vastly more likely to be filed by parents when:
1) relationship is interracial
2) relationship is gay

Many state "Romeo and Juliet" laws apply only to straight teens, so an 18 year old man with a 17 year old girlfriend are OK but an 18 year old woman with a 17 year old girlfriend is not. In fact last year an 18 year old high school student was charged and now has to register for life as a sex offender for having consensual relations with her teenage girlfriend. She and her girlfriend had been together for over a year; the other girl's parents waited until she turned 18 so they could criminally charge her.

 

[maxiep]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Curious about the term "lady professor". Has Denny ever referred to a professor who is male as a "gentleman professor"?

Many states are using what they call "Romeo and Juliet" laws; if a couple are within a few years of each other and in a relationship, to clarify stat rape law. A 15 year old who dated an 18 year old for a year before sexual contact is not the same as a 30 year old and a 6 year old. As with any age based law you can debate the line. Some 16 year olds should not drive but some 30 year olds should not either. Some 21 year olds don't drink responsibly but some 50 year olds don't either. Etc. Laws at best deal with a hypothetical "average" maturity.

When I was 15 I was deeply in love with a person who was 18. Not in a million years can it be said to have harmed me. I accelerated my way through school (I really hated high school) and in consequence I was a 16 year old college student at Berkeley living on my own; and my girlfriend was 26. I can assure you I was not harmed.

Sadly, stat rape laws even when it's a couple close in age are vastly more likely to be filed by parents when:
1) relationship is interracial
2) relationship is gay

Many state "Romeo and Juliet" laws apply only to straight teens, so an 18 year old man with a 17 year old girlfriend are OK but an 18 year old woman with a 17 year old girlfriend is not. In fact last year an 18 year old high school student was charged and now has to register for life as a sex offender for having consensual relations with her teenage girlfriend. She and her girlfriend had been together for over a year; the other girl's parents waited until she turned 18 so they could criminally charge her.

Allow me to be politically incorrect, but as long as the child is not of the age of consent, parents have every right to object to any kind of relationship in which their children engage. If a parent chooses to object to interracial or gay relationships--as distasteful as many find bigotry--a parent has every right to do so, both legally and morally.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Many state "Romeo and Juliet" laws apply only to straight teens, so an 18 year old man with a 17 year old girlfriend are OK but an 18 year old woman with a 17 year old girlfriend is not. In fact last year an 18 year old high school student was charged and now has to register for life as a sex offender for having consensual relations with her teenage girlfriend. She and her girlfriend had been together for over a year; the other girl's parents waited until she turned 18 so they could criminally charge her.

crandc, do you know which states have this distinction. I don't know all the different state laws but this surprises me and seems like an unconstitutional distinction on it's face.

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Allow me to be politically incorrect, but as long as the child is not of the age of consent, parents have every right to object to any kind of relationship in which their children engage. If a parent chooses to object to interracial or gay relationships--as distasteful as many find bigotry--a parent has every right to do so, both legally and morally.

I'm sort of with maxiep here.

The parents are responsible for their children until they reach legal age or are emancipated.

By definition, a minor is incapable of giving consent. The Libertarian position is that consent is required, age of consent laws are quite constitutional, so a minor cannot give consent.

My position is that the parents know their children and are obligated to have their best interests in mind. I oppose the idea that anyone but the parent or guardian should be able to seek prosecution. This last bit is contrary to the Oregon law ToB posted earlier. California law makes it a misdemeanor if the age difference is 3 years or less.

I would hope that once parents seek prosecution that the prosecutors would reject the true Romeo and Juliet cases, or those racially or orientation motivated.

And of course there shouldn't be different rules based upon race or orientation.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Problem I see with giving parents discretion to prosecute:

-parents often disagree themselves

- some parent are so anti-authority or distrusting of law enforcement they will by nature never agree to get law enforcement involved

- some parents have would sell their own children to johns to make money and those are the parents who would be deciding who should be prosecuted

-joint custody in divorce cases would pose a problem as decisions may be made based on being vindictive to the other parent

-parents would use the ability to prosecute a s/o of a child as leverage to control a child's life

-some parents suffer from mental disabilities or addictions that would otherwise prevent them from making good choices


Basically in a perfect world where you have loving parent(s) who make rationale decisions based on the best interest of the child, giving control to the parents makes some sense. But too often I suspect the decisions made by the parents would be made based on factors that would not be in the best interest of the child.

 

[maxiep]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Problem I see with giving parents discretion to prosecute:

-parents often disagree themselves

- some parent are so anti-authority or distrusting of law enforcement they will by nature never agree to get law enforcement involved

- some parents have would sell their own children to johns to make money and those are the parents who would be deciding who should be prosecuted

-joint custody in divorce cases would pose a problem as decisions may be made based on being vindictive to the other parent

-parents would use the ability to prosecute a s/o of a child as leverage to control a child's life

-some parents suffer from mental disabilities or addictions that would otherwise prevent them from making good choices


Basically in a perfect world where you have loving parent(s) who make rationale decisions based on the best interest of the child, giving control to the parents makes some sense. But too often I suspect the decisions made by the parents would be made based on factors that would not be in the best interest of the child.

Okay, then who would be in a better position than parents to determine "the best interest(s) of the child"?

 

[Minstrel]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Okay, then who would be in a better position than parents to determine "the best interest(s) of the child"?

No one, but laws should exist that limit parental power. For example, we don't allow parents to prosecute other high schoolers for looking at their kid funny, even if the parents think it's in the child's best interests. So the question is whether, as an example, an 18 year old and a 17 year old having consensual sex is considered a "harm" by society. If it's not, it shouldn't be prosecutable, by parents or anyone else.

 

[MarAzul]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Okay, then who would be in a better position than parents to determine "the best interest(s) of the child"?

Absolutely no one other than the parents. Perhaps with some significant input from the grandparents.

 

[MarAzul]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

No one, but laws should exist that limit parental power. For example, we don't allow parents to prosecute other high schoolers for looking at their kid funny, even if the parents think it's in the child's best interests. So the question is whether, as an example, an 18 year old and a 17 year old having consensual sex is considered a "harm" by society. If it's not, it shouldn't be prosecutable, by parents or anyone else.

You error sir. The ability to consent is not acquired until the age of 18.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

 

[Minstrel]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

You error sir. The ability to consent is not acquired until the age of 18.

Yes, I'm sure 17 year olds and 18 year olds are massively different in their ability to understand the world and make decisions. A light switch goes on during your 18th birthday...science! We don't want 18 year olds preying on their 17 year old boyfriends/girlfriends, even if they were the same age when they started dating.

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Yes, I'm sure 17 year olds and 18 year olds are massively different in their ability to understand the world and make decisions. A light switch goes on during your 18th birthday...science!

Parents see the kids every day and can tell if you're right.

The law is a tool to allow prosecutors to convict the bad guys and protect young women from rapists.

 

[Minstrel]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

The law is a tool to allow prosecutors to convict the bad guys and protect young women from rapists.

Yes and non-consensual sex is criminal at any age, so we're covered for rape.

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Yes and non-consensual sex is criminal at any age, so we're covered for rape.

The sort of rape trials that involve adult women are a terrible experience for the woman. You want to put girls through that?

The beauty of the consent laws is that they don't have to prove force was involved.

I'm sure you don't know better.

 

[Minstrel]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

The sort of rape trials that involve adult women are a terrible experience for the woman. You want to put girls through that?

The beauty of the consent laws is that they don't have to prove force was involved.

Ruining lives by prosecuting rape when it was consensual are also terrible experiences. I'd rather not give parents, who can be irrational just like all other humans, that sort of extra discretion to ignore the need to prove non-consent.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

I just don't see myself ever raping a statue. And even if I did I'm positive it would be an adult statue. It might not have any arms but that is as far as my kinkiness would go.